Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
captaindyson

Tesla Remove Software Features from Used Model S

Recommended Posts

Posted · Original PosterOP

So it seems Tesla are trying to set a questionable president with regards to what a used market is entitled to with products they buy.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21127243/tesla-model-s-autopilot-disabled-remotely-used-car-update

 

To summarise, a used car dealer bought a model S from a Tesla run auction with autopilot as an advertised feature and proceeded to sell it to a buyer with the same features advertised. Teslas however decided (and ran an audit to enact) that if you have not paid Tesla directly for the feature then you are not entitled to it and so disabled the feature while it was with the dealer and hence the buyer missed out.

 

This takes the issues of automatic software updates to a whole new level and i have to wonder if it is even legal? Does anyone know if the autopilot functionality is "sold as a service"?

 

I think the article sums it up pretty well with:

Quote

Even with a technology product like a laptop or smartphone, updates generally can’t be forcibly rolled back without the consent of the owner — unless the device has special IT software installed. In those cases, the company generally owns the device or has the owner sign a legal agreement anyhow.

And even setting aside all of the anti-consumer points that this raises, it just hurts the electric car market as it increases depreciation of the cars and hence makes the economic choice to buy one harder due to it costing more in real terms.

Link to post
Share on other sites

But Tesla were paid for the software...by the original owner... 


"We also blind small animals with cosmetics.
We do not sell cosmetics. We just blind animals."

 

"Please don't mistake us for Equifax. Those fuckers are evil"

 

This PSA brought to you by Equifacks.
PMSL

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, captaindyson said:

This takes the issues of automatic software updates to a whole new level and i have to wonder if it is even legal? Does anyone know if the autopilot functionality is "sold as a service"?

When your company is a pioneer on the market with almost no laws directly aimed at your business it's only plausible you would do that...

 

This is as greedy as greedy can get.

 

We need proper regulation on this...

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Dabombinable said:

But Tesla were paid for the software...by the original owner... 

The future: you don't own the car, you license it.


Main rig: Asus Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700k stock, Noctua D14, G.Skill Ripjaws V 3200 2x8GB, Gigabyte GTX 1650, Corsair HX750i, In Win 303 NVIDIA, Samsung SM951 512GB, WD Blue 1TB, HP LP2475W 1200p wide gamut

Gaming system: Asrock Z370 Pro4, i7-8086k stock, Noctua D15, Corsair Vengeance Pro RGB 3200 4x16GB, Asus Strix 1080Ti, Fractal Edison 550W PSU, GameMax Silent, Optane 900p 280GB, Crucial MX200 1TB, Sandisk 960GB, Acer Predator XB241YU 1440p 144Hz G-sync

Ryzen rig: Asrock B450 ITX, R5 3600, Noctua D9L, G.SKill TridentZ 3000C14 2x8GB, Gigabyte RTX 2070, Corsair CX450M, NZXT Manta, WD Green 240GB SSD, LG OLED55B9PLA

VR rig: Asus Z170I Pro Gaming, i7-6700T stock, Scythe Kozuti, Kingston Hyper-X 2666 2x8GB, Zotac 1070 FE, Corsair CX450M, Silverstone SG13, Samsung PM951 256GB, Crucial BX500 1TB, HTC Vive

Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB + 480GB SSD

Total CPU heating: i7-8086k, i3-8350k, i7-7920X, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700T, i5-6600k, i3-6100, i7-5930k, i7-5820k, i7-5775C, i5-5675C, 2x i7-4590, i5-4570S, 2x i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, E5-2667, R7 3700X, R5 3600, R5 2600, R7 1700

Link to post
Share on other sites

man, this is an appalling precedent tesla are setting here. Once something has been purchased from the manufacturer/first dealers with a feature, then those features should remain on the vehicle unless there is a serious risk by having them, eg. a major software security issue or a newly discovered flaw.

If I want to lease a car for its features, I'll get it on PCP, but if I buy a car outright, I'd expect it to keep all its features even after I've sold it.


Code of Conduct; F.A.Q.; Unofficial Beginners Guide; General Posting Guidelines;

Spoiler
Spoiler

Branwen (2015 build) - CPU: i7 4790K GPU:EVGA GTX 1070 SC PSU: XFX XTR 650W RAM: 16GB Kingston HyperX fury Motherboard: MSI Z87 MPower MAX AC SSD: Crucial MX100 256GB + Crucial MX300 1TB  Case: Silverstone RV05 Cooler: Corsair H80i V2 Displays: AOC AGON AG241QG & BenQ BL2420PT Build log: link 

Spoiler

As yet unnamed (2020 build) - CPU: AMD R7 3700X GPU: EVGA GTX 1070 (from 2015 build) PSU: Corsair SF600 platinum RAM: 32GB Crucial Ballistix RGB 3600Mhz cl16 Motherboard: Gigabyte Aorus X570i pro wifi SSD: Sabrent Rocket 4.0 1TB Case: Lian Li TU150W black Cooler: Be Quiet! Dark Rock Slim

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The software should be sold with the car, not a software agreement the person buying a used car should have to purchase. And the anti-consumer stance Tesla has towards repair is enough reason to not want one, but imagine the cruise control not working in a used car because you didn't buy it from the dealer or buy the software license.

Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement

not being a dense bellend here; this is our system of car ownership (take that as you will)

Yes but thats because of the size and limited roadspace of the country. COE is additional on top of the car and is a system placed on all private car ownership. It is not the same as one specific manufacturer screwing over the customer or secondary market.

 

As for Tesla itself, anyone who didnt see this nonsense coming would be a fool because of how the car has to be serviced/rapaired. Regardless, I dont see how people cant just work around this by not declaring transfer of ownership of the vehicle. If Tesla is still able to find out, then I would rather pay to not have their cars.


Awareness is key. Never enough, even in the face of futility. Speak the truth as if you may never get to say it again. This world is full of ugly. Change it they say. The only way is to reveal the ugly. To change the truth you must first acknowledge it. Never pretend it isn't there. Never bend the knee.

 

Please quote my post in your reply, so that I will be notified and can respond to it. Thanks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So if the autopilot license is with the user and not the car that means you don't need to buy it again when you change your car to a newer one, right?

Would be fun to counter them with that in court.


F@H
Desktop: i7-5960X 4.4GHz, Noctua NH-D14, ASUS Rampage V, 32GB, RTX2080S, 2TB NVMe SSD, 2x16TB HDD RAID0, Corsair HX1200, Thermaltake Overseer RX1, Samsung 4K curved 49" TV, 23" secondary

Mobile SFF rig: i9-9900K, Noctua NH-L9i, Asrock Z390 Phantom ITX-AC, 32GB, GTX1070, 2x1TB NVMe SSD RAID0, 2x5TB 2.5" HDD RAID0, Athena 500W Flex (Noctua fan), Custom 4.7l 3D printed case

 

Dell XPS 2 in 1 2019, 32GB, 1TB, 4K

 

GPD Win 2

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, VegetableStu said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_Entitlement

not being a dense bellend here; this is our system of car ownership (take that as you will)

I have to admit negligence on my part of Singapore's car ownership system, but my post was half joking about software rights and applying that to cars.


Main rig: Asus Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700k stock, Noctua D14, G.Skill Ripjaws V 3200 2x8GB, Gigabyte GTX 1650, Corsair HX750i, In Win 303 NVIDIA, Samsung SM951 512GB, WD Blue 1TB, HP LP2475W 1200p wide gamut

Gaming system: Asrock Z370 Pro4, i7-8086k stock, Noctua D15, Corsair Vengeance Pro RGB 3200 4x16GB, Asus Strix 1080Ti, Fractal Edison 550W PSU, GameMax Silent, Optane 900p 280GB, Crucial MX200 1TB, Sandisk 960GB, Acer Predator XB241YU 1440p 144Hz G-sync

Ryzen rig: Asrock B450 ITX, R5 3600, Noctua D9L, G.SKill TridentZ 3000C14 2x8GB, Gigabyte RTX 2070, Corsair CX450M, NZXT Manta, WD Green 240GB SSD, LG OLED55B9PLA

VR rig: Asus Z170I Pro Gaming, i7-6700T stock, Scythe Kozuti, Kingston Hyper-X 2666 2x8GB, Zotac 1070 FE, Corsair CX450M, Silverstone SG13, Samsung PM951 256GB, Crucial BX500 1TB, HTC Vive

Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB + 480GB SSD

Total CPU heating: i7-8086k, i3-8350k, i7-7920X, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700T, i5-6600k, i3-6100, i7-5930k, i7-5820k, i7-5775C, i5-5675C, 2x i7-4590, i5-4570S, 2x i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, E5-2667, R7 3700X, R5 3600, R5 2600, R7 1700

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, porina said:

I have to admit negligence on my part of Singapore's car ownership system, but my post was half joking about software rights and applying that to cars.

oh derp, didn't pick that up ,_, (also it's partly because our country doesn't have the physical space for 1 car per 2 adults)

Link to post
Share on other sites

From technical standpoint it's fair but never has been exploited before. Any software can come with license an agreement and probably all but Tesla put such in their sales document. Thing is they could allow by forcing a new license agreement to be signed by the new owner but again that is their own right to deny use of their software to anyone they seem fit.

 

All that being said i still find that a very very cheap move. I would rather prefer they request the new owner to sign a new license agreement without special requirement or cost.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m wondering if this has something to do with it specifically being autopilot Software and some sort of emdemnification issue.  The autopilot stuff has liability issues and the used dealer thing could have created a liability cutout.  I don’t know if this happened, I’m just guessing at possible reasons for this otherwise strange behavior.  Clearly a better solution is needed because this one causes problems.

 

Im also wondering if early model Tesla’s had more advanced autopilot software then newer ones.  This whole thing has the odor of missing information about it.


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, VegetableStu said:

imagine paying for a smartphone and then having first-party functionality disabled because "the software agreement was addressed to the initial owner" ._.

Well, smartphones already come with irremovable  bloatware, forced updates and/or mandatory updates to retain some functionality (i.e., you lose functionality if you don't update), including battery-saving tuning down of the processor...

 

Together with streaming services/online stores, smartphones have spearheaded this trend.

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Franck said:

From technical standpoint it's fair but never has been exploited before. Any software can come with license an agreement and probably all but Tesla put such in their sales document. Thing is they could allow by forcing a new license agreement to be signed by the new owner but again that is their own right to deny use of their software to anyone they seem fit.

 

That depends on the legal environment. For example, Valve lost a case in France precisely about this: the court rule it is not in their right second-hand buyers the right to use software they distribute in their platform, regardless what is written in the license (since license < law).

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Well, smartphones already come with irremovable  bloatware

Not irremovable

1 minute ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

forced updates

It's call security update for most part.

2 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

and/or mandatory updates to retain some functionality (i.e., you lose functionality if you don't update), including battery-saving tuning down of the processor...

Never seen such a case before. Do you have any example, i am very curious.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/7/2020 at 2:46 PM, Franck said:

Not irremovable

It is irremovable. You can remove it somehow, sure. Probably you can hack your way into enabling autopilot into second-hand Teslas too... 9_99_9

 

Quote

It's call security update for most part.

*called

It's really irrelevant what they call them, does not change the point.

 

Quote

Never seen such a case before. Do you have any example, i am very curious.

You must live under a rock :P Apple sent an update to older phones that throttled their processors to prevent unexpected shutdowns of units with degraded batteries...

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, porina said:

The future: you don't own the car, you license it.

I didn't know blizzard had plans to start "selling" cars. :o

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't really think what Tesla is doing will be viable for the company, but at the same time I totally get why Tesla is doing this. If they allowed Autopilot on resold cars, dealers could just buy new Teslas and sell them in their own environment.


My Build (3600X, GTX 1660 Super)

 

Wash your hands!

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, porina said:

The future: you don't own the car, you license it.

A growing number of people in US and Canada Lease cars, (with current trend it will reach a majority in a few years), instead of buying them, as they have no money. So it is already like that. This is also why your GM's Ford Chrysler and so on don't last. Cost a lot, bit really low leasing rates. Perfect car you lease for 3-4years and goes at the bin.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, pas008 said:

Dmca 

You never own the software

I think

Really isn't anything new except for tesla joining a side

www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/amp

It's stupid. It's not like you can transplant software to another Tesla. It's like OEM Windows on lets say laptops. It's tied to hardware and for as long as hardware is the same, it doesn't matter how many owners it changes. You can't install that key somewhere else. And when laptop dies, so does the Windows license with it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Most people in US and Canada Lease cars, instead of buying them, as they have no money. So it is already like that. This is also why your GM's Ford Chrysler and so on don't last. Cost a lot, bit really low leasing rates. Perfect car you lease for 3-4years and goes at the bin.

I've never given ownership much thought before. Most people I know own their cars because it is cheaper in the long term. These people will buy a used are typically over 3 years old, then run it until it becomes uneconomic to do so. Of course, there still needs to be new cars bought to feed the used car market.

 

I think what you call a lease is something car dealers push here too, where an actual lease is more something businesses use. There's a low deposit (10%?) and monthly payments. At the end of the contract, typically 3 years, you either pay off the balance and keep it, or hand it back and start all over again with a new car. In this scenario, while you're legally responsible for having the car (including maintenance) you don't own the car itself. People tend to not think about the deposit once it is paid, and the monthly payments are low enough not to matter. I actually got my current car through this method, but instead of handing it back I decided to pay it off and keep it. Had I handed it back, it would have effectively cost me 20% of its new value each of those 3 years. I've owned the car for 6 years, so even if it was worthless now, its effective cost per year is less than that. The only disadvantage, the car isn't "new" but it is still fine.

 

In the days before this, more typically you take out a loan or similar finance plan to buy the car outright, and make payments on that. 


Main rig: Asus Maximus VIII Hero, i7-6700k stock, Noctua D14, G.Skill Ripjaws V 3200 2x8GB, Gigabyte GTX 1650, Corsair HX750i, In Win 303 NVIDIA, Samsung SM951 512GB, WD Blue 1TB, HP LP2475W 1200p wide gamut

Gaming system: Asrock Z370 Pro4, i7-8086k stock, Noctua D15, Corsair Vengeance Pro RGB 3200 4x16GB, Asus Strix 1080Ti, Fractal Edison 550W PSU, GameMax Silent, Optane 900p 280GB, Crucial MX200 1TB, Sandisk 960GB, Acer Predator XB241YU 1440p 144Hz G-sync

Ryzen rig: Asrock B450 ITX, R5 3600, Noctua D9L, G.SKill TridentZ 3000C14 2x8GB, Gigabyte RTX 2070, Corsair CX450M, NZXT Manta, WD Green 240GB SSD, LG OLED55B9PLA

VR rig: Asus Z170I Pro Gaming, i7-6700T stock, Scythe Kozuti, Kingston Hyper-X 2666 2x8GB, Zotac 1070 FE, Corsair CX450M, Silverstone SG13, Samsung PM951 256GB, Crucial BX500 1TB, HTC Vive

Gaming laptop: Asus FX503VD, i5-7300HQ, 2x8GB DDR4, GTX 1050, Sandisk 256GB + 480GB SSD

Total CPU heating: i7-8086k, i3-8350k, i7-7920X, 2x i7-6700k, i7-6700T, i5-6600k, i3-6100, i7-5930k, i7-5820k, i7-5775C, i5-5675C, 2x i7-4590, i5-4570S, 2x i3-4150T, E5-2683v3, 2x E5-2650, E5-2667, R7 3700X, R5 3600, R5 2600, R7 1700

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Original PosterOP
1 hour ago, weeblord said:

I don't really think what Tesla is doing will be viable for the company, but at the same time I totally get why Tesla is doing this. If they allowed Autopilot on resold cars, dealers could just buy new Teslas and sell them in their own environment.

But how would they turn a profit? Nobody would buy from a dealer if they can get it for the price the dealer bought it at direct from Tesla.

 

And on the many points people have noted about leasing cars - that is all well and good if that was what was happening. If you leased a car direct from Tesla and when the time was up you gave it back then tesla resold or re-leased it without the software upgrades (appropriately advertised of course) then that is their prerogative. But in this case they don't own the car (as they would in a lease), ownership was transferred to the dealer with the advertisement including the autopilot.

It would be like buying a house and then a few days later someone comes along and removes all your windows and doors because you did not pay the builder of the house for them!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×