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Lokesh Narravula

Car Coolant Based Cooling

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5 minutes ago, Lokesh Narravula said:

 

it doesnt give better temperatures but it is perfectly functional as a coolant. The only thing is that it is more toxic than PC coolants so handling and disposal needs more attention.

 

@Tristerin

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I run a custom loop made with Chinese-sourced loop components and I run Prestone 50/50 Coolant, it seems to work fine though I don't think there would be an improvement in temperatures. @Tristerin should have more insight on this as he helped me put the loop together.


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Guys @Tristerin is like Beetlejuice and Bloody Mary and we have to say his name three times.  So now that we have . . .


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  • Car coolant has less thermal mass than water.
  • It will not do as good a job at absorbing heat per volume of fluid.
    • I doubt you need to protect your computer cooling fluid from freezing, so why take that performance hit.
  • The less the concentration of water, the less effective it will be.
  • They also have an unspecified collection of additives, if you like playing chemical roulette.
  • RV anti-freeze is less of a hazard (depending on grade of propylene glycol used), but still chemical roulette.
  • You can mix your own, so you control the additives.
    • You can buy propylene glycol from various sources, including Amazon and Tractor Supply Company.
    • But why do that and get a water:coolant mixture that is less effective than water.

 

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A while back I downloaded the msds sheets for prestone antifreeze and mayhem coolant. Guess what.... Exactly the same ingredients other than coloring additives. It's pretty easy to find. 

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I've always been confused as to why people talk about automotive coolants as "chemical roulette" when they specifically have anti-corrosion additives in them.

It isn't uncommon for an automotive cooling loop to include aluminum, steel, cast iron, copper, brass, and with soldered radiators also lead, in various mixtures, at temperatures elevated past that of your PC, for years at a time per change. It'll be fine from that perspective, you shouldn't see any corrosion issues.

 

It does have lower thermal mass though, so will change your cooling capacity somewhat. Looking at https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html seems to show that at 40C you'll need 16% extra flow to account for the difference if you want the exact same temperatures.

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3 hours ago, nick name said:

Guys @Tristerin is like Beetlejuice and Bloody Mary and we have to say his name three times.  So now that we have . . .

BWUAHAHAHAHAHA

 

3 hours ago, Lokesh Narravula said:

Has anyone tried to water cool a system with a car coolant type liquid instead of water in the tubing?

I wonder if that would give better cooling results.

 

Distilled water is better at transferring heat than radiator fluid

 

However, I mix metals so I either have to buy additives or use radiator fluid premix:

3 hours ago, TheSLSAMG said:

 Prestone 50/50 Coolant

@Lokesh Narravula

This is my favored coolant mixture as its cheap, has corrosive inhibitors and is also naturally a biocide (antifreeze) so works wonders on the wallet and in a loop

 

 

EDIT - PETG tubing doesn't mix w/ glycol so note that when building a loop (I use silicone food grade tubing, brewery tubing specifically)

 


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3 hours ago, Canoe said:
  •  
  • They also have an unspecified collection of additives, if you like playing chemical roulette.
  •  

 

This is untrue, they are well documented.  Poison control and stuffs.


Workstation Laptop: Dell Precision 7540, Xeon E-2276M, 32gb DDR4, Quadro T2000 GPU, 4k display

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Dwight: The Mixed Metals Loop Media Center.  Ask me about it.  Currently decommissioned to move to an mATX setup on a new MOBO once I pick one out

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9 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

This is untrue, they are well documented.  Poison control and stuffs.

False.

Only the hazards need be declared as to type. Exact concentrations are proprietary, so not provided, only a range.

Other additives vary and what they are is proprietary. And the next time you buy that exact anti-freeze product, they may not be the same. What worked/protected metals before may not work again.

Hence, chemical roulette.

 

See this issue frequently where people mix their own PG based mixtures for bike tubeless tires. If they get food grade PG and mix their own, no issues. Get the PG based RV antifreeze and it's a crap shoot as to if the additives will/won't setup the latex in the mixture; can set it up in the tire so it's unavailable for sealing punctures, or prevents it from sealing when there's a puncture.

 

Distilled water is good. RO water is often easier to find.

RO/DI water is also usable.

Then you have to research additives that are compatible with your tubes/pipes, metals and pumps.

 

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1 hour ago, Canoe said:

only a range.

 

 

Of the chemicals in them, its true, and those chemicals are researchable. 

 

 

Anyhow you can espouse this is some sort of odd game of roulette or realize vehicles cooling systems are closed loops running for hundreds of thousands of miles for countless years with no issues because #science.  Ive built multiple loops with radiator fluid, no issues.  

 

I don't have time to dig up the other thread I have on there where I left a mixed metals loop with antifreeze running 24/7 then took it apart cut the radiators and blocks apart with a hacksaw and cut open brand new of the same items to show how there is zero corrosion (aluminum GPU block, aluminum radiators, copper CPU block) and no discoloring on tubing, pump issues etc.

 

Or go ahead and pay like $70 for some loop fluid doesn't bother me.

 

 


Workstation Laptop: Dell Precision 7540, Xeon E-2276M, 32gb DDR4, Quadro T2000 GPU, 4k display

Ryzen Rig 2: ASrock B450 Pro4 ATX, Ryzen 7 1700 @ 4.2ghz all core 1.4vCore, Sapphire R9 Fury Tri-X Nitro 4gb HBM (+100mhz core clock), 16gb (2x8) 3600mhz V-Color Skywalker (or 4x8gb DDR4 2666mhz for large tasks), Corsair HX850 PSU, Custom Loop 2x240mm + 1x120mm radiator, 128gb Patriot Scorch NVMe Win 10 boot drive, 500gb Samsung 840 EVO SSD, CoolerMaster HAF XM Case.  DSI 90-Key Mechanical Keyboard w/ Cherry Red switches, Zalman ZM-GM1 mouse, Hannspree HF207 and Acer AL2016W monitors

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Ryzen Rig 1: ASUS B350-PRIME ATX, Ryzen 7 1700, Sapphire R9 Fury Tri-X Nitro 4gb HBM, 16gb (2x8) 3200mhz V-Color Skywalker, ANTEC Earthwatts 750w PSU, MasterLiquid Lite 120 AIO cooler in Push/Pull config as rear exhaust, 250gb Samsung 850 Evo SSD, Patriot Burst 240gb SSD, Cougar MX330-X Case.  Zalman K600S keyboard, Zalman ZM-GM1 mouse, Acer XF270HU 2560x1440 144hz IPS monitor

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/37628874?

Dwight: The Mixed Metals Loop Media Center.  Ask me about it.  Currently decommissioned to move to an mATX setup on a new MOBO once I pick one out

Schrute: ASUS M5A99FX Pro R2.0, FX 8350, 2x Gigabyte HD 7850 2gb GPUs in crossfire, 16gb (4x4) Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600mhz, Sparkle/FSP 650w PSU, PCCOOLING 160w TDP air cooler, 60gb Patriot SSD Win 10 boot drive, 1tb WDBlack HDD, Rosewill Nautilus 1.0 case.  Logitech Wireless Keyboard and Mouse, Roku 55" 4k TV

Micro Form Factor Dell OptiPlex 3040: Dell 0MGK50 A02, i3-6100T, 2x4gb DDR3 1600, Team Group 120gb SSD, 500gb Seagate 7mm HDD attached storage, Windows 10 Pro, Logitech K400+, USB Wifi adapter all vesa mounted to the back of a 37" 1080p TV for form factor in the kitchen

Linux Box: Toshiba Laptop, i7 620M, NVS graphics, 2gb ram tinker toy at the moment.  Running Manjaro at the moment

APU Laptop: I need to clean this things TIM up so it can boot into Windows 7 for more than 5 minute before overheating at idle, it has things, I just haven't been on it in 2 years or so

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13 hours ago, Canoe said:

False.

Only the hazards need be declared as to type. Exact concentrations are proprietary, so not provided, only a range.

Other additives vary and what they are is proprietary. And the next time you buy that exact anti-freeze product, they may not be the same. What worked/protected metals before may not work again.

Hence, chemical roulette.

 

See this issue frequently where people mix their own PG based mixtures for bike tubeless tires. If they get food grade PG and mix their own, no issues. Get the PG based RV antifreeze and it's a crap shoot as to if the additives will/won't setup the latex in the mixture; can set it up in the tire so it's unavailable for sealing punctures, or prevents it from sealing when there's a puncture.

 

Distilled water is good. RO water is often easier to find.

RO/DI water is also usable.

Then you have to research additives that are compatible with your tubes/pipes, metals and pumps.

 

I'm once again confused as to why an automotive antifreeze manufacturer, who has liability moving into the hundreds of thousands of dollars if found to have produced a product that damaged engines when they said it was okay, would suddenly change their formula to something that no longer prevents corrosion? There are standards that all reputable coolants are tested to, specifically ASTM D3306, ASTM D4985, ASTM D3306, ASTM D6210, and ASTM D7583 depending on the coolant. It's true that they don't have to publish exactly what their corrosion inhibitor formula is, but the ASTM standards show that it does work. Five years/150k miles is not an uncommon expected lifespan of coolant in an automotive system, and don't forget that higher temperatures encourage corrosion more than lower ones, so your computer loop operating at 40C will have less potential issues than the car running at 85C will.

 

Also just for curiosity, where on earth is RO water easier to find than distilled? Distilled water is $0.88/gallon at Walmart, I've never seen RO water for sale, and I've certainly never seen DI water regularly available outside a chem lab.

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48 minutes ago, boarder2k7 said:

I'm once again confused as to why an automotive antifreeze manufacturer, who has liability moving into the hundreds of thousands of dollars if found to have produced a product that damaged engines when they said it was okay, would suddenly change their formula to something that no longer prevents corrosion? There are standards that all reputable coolants are tested to, specifically ASTM D3306, ASTM D4985, ASTM D3306, ASTM D6210, and ASTM D7583 depending on the coolant. It's true that they don't have to publish exactly what their corrosion inhibitor formula is, but the ASTM standards show that it does work. Five years/150k miles is not an uncommon expected lifespan of coolant in an automotive system, and don't forget that higher temperatures encourage corrosion more than lower ones, so your computer loop operating at 40C will have less potential issues than the car running at 85C will.

 

Also just for curiosity, where on earth is RO water easier to find than distilled? Distilled water is $0.88/gallon at Walmart, I've never seen RO water for sale, and I've certainly never seen DI water regularly available outside a chem lab.

#science

 

The next loop I am building (have all parts, just to lazy) going to try G05 fluids

 

EDIT - @ the OP - the thing is the delta between the best fluids and radiator fluid is negligible and easily overcome by radiator space, fan type, ambient temps, TIM etc.  Unless you are an extreme overclocker, you wont notice that 1-2c difference with pure distilled vs. antifreeze.

 

Example - For a while there my R7 1700 in sig was in the top 10 for CinebenchR20 overclock runs, was in the top 15 last I checked (for air or custom loop, with LN2 beating them all) using my mixed metals loop (heat soaks at 67c doing 20+ Cine runs) which includes aluminum radiators (which have a slightly worse heat transfer than copper radiators) and radiator fluid.  

 

Or you can pay 4-5x the cost for copper radiators, and 10x the cost for namebrand fluids - or do a bunch of research and confidently use *slightly* inferior by the numbers products at a huge cost reduction.

 

And at the naysayer here in this thread - I dug up my pics of running antifreeze for 24/7 6 months straight then cutting open the components, and brand new ones as well to do side by side comparisons here are a few examples (of experience with this)

I literally built this rig for people like you, and have forum posts following this machine through its life of being built to cut open.  #science

 

 

 

 

copperblocks.jpg

Cut2.jpg

Cut3.jpg

outsidepc.jpg

Proof1.jpg

Proof2.jpg


Workstation Laptop: Dell Precision 7540, Xeon E-2276M, 32gb DDR4, Quadro T2000 GPU, 4k display

Ryzen Rig 2: ASrock B450 Pro4 ATX, Ryzen 7 1700 @ 4.2ghz all core 1.4vCore, Sapphire R9 Fury Tri-X Nitro 4gb HBM (+100mhz core clock), 16gb (2x8) 3600mhz V-Color Skywalker (or 4x8gb DDR4 2666mhz for large tasks), Corsair HX850 PSU, Custom Loop 2x240mm + 1x120mm radiator, 128gb Patriot Scorch NVMe Win 10 boot drive, 500gb Samsung 840 EVO SSD, CoolerMaster HAF XM Case.  DSI 90-Key Mechanical Keyboard w/ Cherry Red switches, Zalman ZM-GM1 mouse, Hannspree HF207 and Acer AL2016W monitors

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/37004594?

Ryzen Rig 1: ASUS B350-PRIME ATX, Ryzen 7 1700, Sapphire R9 Fury Tri-X Nitro 4gb HBM, 16gb (2x8) 3200mhz V-Color Skywalker, ANTEC Earthwatts 750w PSU, MasterLiquid Lite 120 AIO cooler in Push/Pull config as rear exhaust, 250gb Samsung 850 Evo SSD, Patriot Burst 240gb SSD, Cougar MX330-X Case.  Zalman K600S keyboard, Zalman ZM-GM1 mouse, Acer XF270HU 2560x1440 144hz IPS monitor

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/37628874?

Dwight: The Mixed Metals Loop Media Center.  Ask me about it.  Currently decommissioned to move to an mATX setup on a new MOBO once I pick one out

Schrute: ASUS M5A99FX Pro R2.0, FX 8350, 2x Gigabyte HD 7850 2gb GPUs in crossfire, 16gb (4x4) Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600mhz, Sparkle/FSP 650w PSU, PCCOOLING 160w TDP air cooler, 60gb Patriot SSD Win 10 boot drive, 1tb WDBlack HDD, Rosewill Nautilus 1.0 case.  Logitech Wireless Keyboard and Mouse, Roku 55" 4k TV

Micro Form Factor Dell OptiPlex 3040: Dell 0MGK50 A02, i3-6100T, 2x4gb DDR3 1600, Team Group 120gb SSD, 500gb Seagate 7mm HDD attached storage, Windows 10 Pro, Logitech K400+, USB Wifi adapter all vesa mounted to the back of a 37" 1080p TV for form factor in the kitchen

Linux Box: Toshiba Laptop, i7 620M, NVS graphics, 2gb ram tinker toy at the moment.  Running Manjaro at the moment

APU Laptop: I need to clean this things TIM up so it can boot into Windows 7 for more than 5 minute before overheating at idle, it has things, I just haven't been on it in 2 years or so

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Heres my RR2 in sig antifreeze rig, don't mind the dust its industrial themed ;)

RR2-1.jpg


Workstation Laptop: Dell Precision 7540, Xeon E-2276M, 32gb DDR4, Quadro T2000 GPU, 4k display

Ryzen Rig 2: ASrock B450 Pro4 ATX, Ryzen 7 1700 @ 4.2ghz all core 1.4vCore, Sapphire R9 Fury Tri-X Nitro 4gb HBM (+100mhz core clock), 16gb (2x8) 3600mhz V-Color Skywalker (or 4x8gb DDR4 2666mhz for large tasks), Corsair HX850 PSU, Custom Loop 2x240mm + 1x120mm radiator, 128gb Patriot Scorch NVMe Win 10 boot drive, 500gb Samsung 840 EVO SSD, CoolerMaster HAF XM Case.  DSI 90-Key Mechanical Keyboard w/ Cherry Red switches, Zalman ZM-GM1 mouse, Hannspree HF207 and Acer AL2016W monitors

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/37004594?

Ryzen Rig 1: ASUS B350-PRIME ATX, Ryzen 7 1700, Sapphire R9 Fury Tri-X Nitro 4gb HBM, 16gb (2x8) 3200mhz V-Color Skywalker, ANTEC Earthwatts 750w PSU, MasterLiquid Lite 120 AIO cooler in Push/Pull config as rear exhaust, 250gb Samsung 850 Evo SSD, Patriot Burst 240gb SSD, Cougar MX330-X Case.  Zalman K600S keyboard, Zalman ZM-GM1 mouse, Acer XF270HU 2560x1440 144hz IPS monitor

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/37628874?

Dwight: The Mixed Metals Loop Media Center.  Ask me about it.  Currently decommissioned to move to an mATX setup on a new MOBO once I pick one out

Schrute: ASUS M5A99FX Pro R2.0, FX 8350, 2x Gigabyte HD 7850 2gb GPUs in crossfire, 16gb (4x4) Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600mhz, Sparkle/FSP 650w PSU, PCCOOLING 160w TDP air cooler, 60gb Patriot SSD Win 10 boot drive, 1tb WDBlack HDD, Rosewill Nautilus 1.0 case.  Logitech Wireless Keyboard and Mouse, Roku 55" 4k TV

Micro Form Factor Dell OptiPlex 3040: Dell 0MGK50 A02, i3-6100T, 2x4gb DDR3 1600, Team Group 120gb SSD, 500gb Seagate 7mm HDD attached storage, Windows 10 Pro, Logitech K400+, USB Wifi adapter all vesa mounted to the back of a 37" 1080p TV for form factor in the kitchen

Linux Box: Toshiba Laptop, i7 620M, NVS graphics, 2gb ram tinker toy at the moment.  Running Manjaro at the moment

APU Laptop: I need to clean this things TIM up so it can boot into Windows 7 for more than 5 minute before overheating at idle, it has things, I just haven't been on it in 2 years or so

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Just don't use it with PETG.


CPU | Intel i7-7700K | GPU | EVGA 1080ti Founders Edition | CASE | Phanteks Enthoo Evolv ATX | PSU | Seasonic X850 80 Plus Gold | RAM | 2x8GB G.skill Trident RGB 3000MHz | MOTHERBOARD | Asus Z270E Strix | STORAGE | Adata XPG 256GB NVME + Kingston 120GB SSD + WD Blue 1TB + Adata 480GB SSD | COOLING | Hard Line Custom Loop + 7 Corsair 120 Air Series QE Fans | MONITOR | Acer Predator XB271HU | OS | Windows 10 |

                                   

                                   

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8 hours ago, boarder2k7 said:

Also just for curiosity, where on earth is RO water easier to find than distilled? Distilled water is $0.88/gallon at Walmart, I've never seen RO water for sale, and I've certainly never seen DI water regularly available outside a chem lab.

Over the past two decades, distilled water is harder and harder to find. Both in pharmacies and in Walmart. But I can buy RO and sometimes even RO/DI water in Walmart. Why there's been that change in availability, I don't know.

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8 hours ago, boarder2k7 said:

I'm once again confused as to why an automotive antifreeze manufacturer, who has liability moving into the hundreds of thousands of dollars if found to have produced a product that damaged engines when they said it was okay, would suddenly change their formula to something that no longer prevents corrosion? ...

I never said they would change their formula to something that would no longer prevent corrosion.

I said that the chemicals they put in can change. And was referring to it working/protecting what is used in computer cooling.

Quote

 

Other additives vary and what they are is proprietary. And the next time you buy that exact anti-freeze product, they may not be the same. What worked/protected metals before may not work again.

Hence, chemical roulette.

 

Because they have that liability, and the need/obligation/responsibility to maximize profit, any manufacturer can and will change their production formula as required. They may change it to better meet their claims, not damage a particular component/material, or they can do the same job with a cheaper chemical or one less harmful to the environment. Their "duty" is that it is suitable to the claims they made as to the purpose it is made and sold. That purpose was as a combustion engine coolant over its temperature, pressure & velocity ranges.

 

If someone takes the experiment to use a engine coolant product in their computer water liquid cooling, and it works out for them, then buying that exact same product to do the same in future, may not have the same chemical balance (nor even all the same chemicals), and may not have the same outcome. #science

 

The same thing can happen if someone wants to replicate what someone else was successful with. They may use the exact same product (premixed or mix the same ratios with water), but may not be getting the exact same chemical mix. And they may not have the same metal alloys in their components. They are not guaranteed to have the same successful outcome. #science

 

And more frequently I'm seeing the strong recommendation to mix engine coolant with distilled/RO water, to ensure that any chemical in tap water cannot interact with the chemicals that make up the coolant. So the water you use may matter too.

 

That people have succeeded using engine coolant a number of times is encouraging, but not definitive. #science

 

The more times it is used successfully, while not "proven" (#science), it becomes more likely that someone can expect a good outcome, and more so if they use the same product and materials as closely as possible. But always (#science), they need to understand that there is no guarantee.

 

So one can go for their own implementation of the engine coolant experiment, or acquire known ingredients and mix their own so they know what is in it and can replicate it, or they can purchase what someone else has developed for the purpose of computer cooling. The risks are different for each...

 

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On 2/2/2020 at 6:35 PM, Canoe said:

Over the past two decades, distilled water is harder and harder to find. Both in pharmacies and in Walmart. But I can buy RO and sometimes even RO/DI water in Walmart. Why there's been that change in availability, I don't know.

Where are you from tho ?Most places in the usa distilled water is very easy to get.A lot of cpap machine run on distilled water and a lot of people need those machines to sleep good.

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Ottawa, Canada

Distilled was replaced with RO around two decades ago. Used to be you could select distilled or DI water at just about every pharmacy. Around three to four years ago, distilled popped up in a few places, intermittently.

Neighbour of my Dad's ran his CPAP on RO. I have no idea of that's allowed, recommended, etc.. He tended to be slack with a number of things.

I gave up sourcing 'pure' water around eight (?) years ago and bought RO/DI filters and a meter, so I know what I'm dealing with.

 

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(I'm assuming someone hasn't done this yet...)

Make a "Liquid and Exotic Cooling" thread "Auto Engine Coolant build Index List", as an index to such builds. And a tag.

Everyone who has made a "water"/liquid cooling system using engine coolant can make a post in that thread for each build that they made with it. The ideas is someone can quickly see an index showing combos of product & materials that worked (or didn't). Include:

  • Coolant brand & model,
    • pre-mixed or mixing ratio with water,
    • what type of water (tap, distilled, RO, RO/DI, other?),
  • What type of tubes, fittings, reservoir and pump.
  • Any additives you, well, added.
  • Date of commission, and
  • Date of decommission if it is not running anymore.
  • List any failures or degradation of components, or anything that you suspected.
    • For each, what do you think it was related to. As in, workmanship, substituting different materials from those known to work in other builds, using engine coolant, your water, your additives, quality of components, or just a regular liquid-cooling maintenance idem that does or may turn up.
  • Would you do it again or not.
  • Hopefully link(s) to your build pics or build log.

DO include your failures, so those coming behind you can avoid them and get a successful build.

 

If there's enough posts, perhaps it will get pinned for quick reference.

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i made a thread on this and most said don't do it! i guess at the end of the day its your money and do what you want.

the people said don't do it but never showed any evidence to not do it.

it would be a good idea of have a post were people who have did mixed metal builds and the pros and cons of it.

most build that i do see do this are all cheap builds dells and hps with a $100 loop were if something gos wrong w/e i like to see a hi end system running mix metal loop.

 

i think the man problem is were do i buy a mixed metal coolant cheap. you can get car coolant cheap!

 

i have got a fairly cheap custom loop $25ish a rad, $40-100ish for pump, $2 a fitting, $15-40 cpu block, ($100-200ish you can build a hybrid gpu block for $15-20) gpu block and res optional.

 

i thought of going all aluminum but your stuck with ek fittings, pumps, and w/e gpu block they have. and ya there are cheap cpu blocks but there cheap.....

all just to save money on rads. doable but be a pain. you can use plastic fittings if you can find em or most rad,block have small fittings on them witch would limit you anyway. ya you could go nuts with rads for cheap but then if its too big the you have to buy another pump witch ek stuff not cheap.

 

if you have an io and want to add another rad to that then i can make seance.

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