corona virus

[Bombastinator]

6 minutes ago, Deli said:

Extra 2300 beds. Is it enough?

Sounds like they may need like 5 times that amount.   Hard to know from here though.  Having a few spare hospitals to tossup is handy though.  They may need more of em.

[Canoe]

3 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I’d call that a sock scarf or a tube scarf.  Probably a bunch of names for such a thing.

I doubt polar fleece would work like the cotton weave of the heavier bandanas do. I might be wrong.

Like I 'said', stop guessing and go read.

 

[Bombastinator]

8 minutes ago, Canoe said:

You need to read up on how particle and droplet filtration works. It's not like there's a magic screen that prevents particles of a given size. It's NOT what you'd think. N is for non-oil particle filtration. Stop guessing: go read.

I’m extrapolating from housing renovation.  It’s what those things are built for.  It’s why they’re sold at hardware stores.

[Canoe]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

I’m extrapolating from housing renovation.  It’s what those things are built for.  It’s why they’re sold at hardware stores.

Filters Do Not Work The Way You Think.

Go Read!

[Bombastinator]

On 2/2/2020 at 6:59 AM, Canoe said:

I doubt polar fleece would work like the cotton weave of the heavier bandanas do. I might be wrong.

Like I 'said', stop guessing and go read.

 

Because reading would help with deciding what turns out to be hiking terminology?  I respect the data your putting up here and I’m not pretending to be medically knowledgeable.  The “go read”’thing is starting to piss me off a bit though.  This is reading.

 

On 2/2/2020 at 7:01 AM, Canoe said:

Filters Do Not Work The Way You Think.

Go Read!

They work for particulate the way I think they do.  I don’t do live stuff.  Third “go read” btw.

[imreloadin]

8 hours ago, Canoe said:

The 2019-nCoV Global Cases by Johns Hopkins CSSE dashboard

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

• No longer states the date nor time that their data was last updated.
• The Total Confirmed Cases does not match the spreadsheet that is supposed to be the source data. It's 4 pm EST; the spreadhseet time is 10 am.

That dashboard is now unreliable as a data source.

Get it together Johns Hopkins!

[Deli]

Surprised non of the "Stan" reports a single case so far. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Kazakhstan. China invests heavily in the Belt and Road Initiative. There are many Chinese built infrastructure and factories in many of these countries.

 

I just have a phone call to a friend in Tajikistan. She told me there is a confirmed case there. She is a nurse working in the hospital.

[Canoe]

On 2/2/2020 at 7:06 AM, Bombastinator said:

They work for particulate the way I think they do.  I don’t do live stuff.  Third “go read” btw.

Here's the fourth Go Read.

Your questions and comments show that the filtering of particulate works different from what you think.

You can keep moving forward without that understanding or you can (fifth) go read. I'm not going to attempt to explain it.

 

On 2/2/2020 at 7:37 AM, imreloadin said:

Get it together Johns Hopkins!

They appear to have finished rolling out new versions of their web page. It was updated a number of times: from providing the date of the last snaphot it was displaying (values in spreadsheet), to 'updated hourly', to no update message, to the current "(each point is updated as new cases are identified)". It appears to be doing that last.

 

With Snapshots as spreadsheet, one or more a day.

 

***

 

Latest snapshot, labelled 2020-02-01 11 pm EST.

 

Includes

• 14,549 Confirmed
• 305 Deaths
• 340 Recovered
• which means, 13,904 unresolved: which will Resolve as Deaths vs. Resolved?

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, Canoe said:

Here's the fourth Go Read.

Your questions and comments show that the filtering of particulate works different from what you think.

You can keep moving forward without that understanding or you can (fifth) go read. I'm not going to attempt to explain it.

That actually might be possible.  That actually is a reason to go look something up.  Unlike the other stuff which was merely vague and insulting.  Particularly the thing about “buff”.  that was just dumb.  It appears I have angered you by having the affront to actually say something.  I was trying to be helpful.  

 

 My understanding was that those filters were a micro pore felt rated for one micron with a synthetic fluff backing.  The way that is apparently wrong is it worked more or less like a seive and things bigger than one micron wouldn’t fit through the “holes”  which was the space between the fibers.

at least that’s how it was explained to me, and how ceremoc micro filters work and just about every filter I’ve ever heard of.  There are some exceptions.  Activated carbon filters work in a completely different way.  The activated carbon actually forms molecular bonds with everything that passes near it. These aren’t activated carbon though.  I will now go off and see how wrong I was.

[mr moose]

I really understand the fear response and why people would be afraid of Chinese wearing masks,  I've have had to spend a bit of time in one of Melbourne's bigger hospitals this last week.  Now I know that they aren't dumb enough to put a coronavirus patient in the same ward as a cancer patients receiving chemo or haematology patients, however when you walk past a room with droplet warnings and nurses in full protection gear outside the room you kinda hold your breath and spend a few hours being worried you've picked up something really nasty.

 

Fear is one of the strongest survival instincts and it is why people second guess doctors and buy into woo medicine when they get really sick.  Anything that gives them hope or sanctuary from that fear.  

[Canoe]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

... The way that is apparently wrong is it worked more or less like a seive and things bigger than one micron wouldn’t fit through the “holes”  which was the space between the fibers.

... and just about every filter I’ve ever heard of. 

That's exactly what I thought for decades. So I was quite surprised at what I found out when I was selecting filters for my use. With the way they work, how they make the rating, then you can understand the definition of a specific filter and what you can expect from it.

[Bombastinator]

10 minutes ago, Canoe said:

That's exactly what I thought for decades. So I was quite surprised at what I found out when I was selecting filters for my use. With the way they work, how they make the rating, then you can understand the definition of a specific filter and what you can expect from it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA
it appears my understanding was of membrane filters which they are not.  They do act as what amounts to membrane filters (impaction and interception) but there is also diffusion and electrostatic attraction which allow even smaller stuff to be filtered.  It doesn’t strike me as especially reliable, but apparently tests have been done and it seems it is.  The issue with the “buff” seems to be that it is made of nylon not fiberglass and the electrostatic function might not operate.  Also it’s a much wider weave. Diffusion might still work I would think, though possibly to a lesser degree.  Not something I would personally want to rely on.  I never supported buffs as an effective solution though, I merely didn’t know what he meant using the term. So I asked.  I do that.

 

cotton masks were used in world war1 for protection on the battlefield but according to the military documentation provided in order to work they needed to be wet.  There are stories of soldiers frantically urinating on their masks in order to get them to function.  I cant seem to find out how much water is needed or how the effect works.  Breath has water in it and may be enough. I don’t know.  The US army in world war1 didn’t seem to think so. The particular action of cotton seems hard to find. One thing that occurs to me is Cotton is hydrophilic whereas those buffs are by definition hydrophobic.  It’s sort of the point of a lot of hiking gear.   There is apparently something special about cotton.  Cotton fibers are scaled and have bits sticking out of them whereas synthetic fibers are smooth, generally.  Wool has more scales than cotton, but wool is hydrophobic.  I kind of want to know what makes cotton so unusual.
 

I did find the definition of that N rating though

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/topics/respirators/disp_part/default.html

cotton masks seem to have a pretty high N rating.  Wetness doesn’t seem to be discussed.

 

It does support my original attitude mostly by accident, that n100 is what would seem to be preferred for disease stuff.  In a situation where it only takes one virus to infect, 5% strikes me as kind of high.   Perhaps there have been tests on that too though.  I haven’t found any myself.

[Canoe]

9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HEPA
it appears my understanding was of membrane filters which they are not.  They do act as what amounts to membrane filters (impaction and interception) but there is also diffusion and electrostatic attraction which allow even smaller stuff to be filtered.  It doesn’t strike me as especially reliable, but apparently tests have been done and it seems it is. 

That's pretty much what my thoughts were.

I was very surprised that it wasn't the 'fits through screen/sieve' model. Because, of course, everyone knows that as a "truth".

 

The 3m technical materials expanded on that a lot. And how it is incorporated to a filter design targeted at filtering ________, and how important the additional ways it catches particles are.

 

9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

cotton masks were used in world war1 for protection on the battlefield but according to the military documentation provided in order to work they needed to be wet.  There are stories of soldiers frantically urinating on their masks in order to get them to function.

I thought the urine was to resist one of the gas agents?

 

With using the cotton bandana in heat (90 F +), I tried damping it and I tried wetting it. It was nice for evaporating and cooling. For filtering, for me it seemed the same at first, then perhaps slightly better, then very much worse. I'm guessing the cotton fibres that were doing the work got coated/clumped with the now wetted super fine clay particles, affecting how much of which size of particles it was catching. So I stuck with what moisture it got from my breath. 

9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

...   There is apparently something special about cotton.  Cotton fibers are scaled and have bits sticking out of them whereas synthetic fibers are smooth, generally.  Wool has more scales than cotton, but wool is hydrophobic.  I kind of want to know what makes cotton so unusual.

I don't know. I'd assumed it was a mix of its physical structure and the way the threaded fibre has air paths through and bits sticking out and then out more finely, and so on, creating more effective surface area than the mere area of the "surface" of the idealized thread. Or that combined with it's charge behaviour.

 

9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

 

It does support my original attitude mostly by accident, that n100 is what would seem to be preferred for disease stuff.  In a situation where it only takes one virus to infect, 5% strikes me as kind of high.   Perhaps there have been tests on that too though.  I haven’t found any myself.

 

It may only take one, but how many can your body fight off. This is why weak, reduced immune function or sick people are usually the most susceptible. (2019-nCoV is reported to use a certain receptor in the lung, of which Asian Males are known to have ~double the usual number)

All you need to do is reduce your exposure down to the level that your body can fight off. Knowing where that is, ....? So you do what you can.

 

Which is why I posted this earlier. 

Quote

Dr. Mark Loeb, an infectious disease specialist at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, said a study during an outbreak of the SARS coronavirus found that any type of protection — whether a mask or a respirator — reduced the risk of infections in health care workers by about 85 percent.

Which surprised me as the emphasis made is that surgical masks are designed to keep droplets in (expelling and infecting others), not keep droplets out (you from inhaling droplets).

[Teddy07]

Omg

Not even here can you escape the crazy hype

[Bombastinator]

On 2/2/2020 at 11:11 AM, Canoe said:

Spoiler

 

That's pretty much what my thoughts were.

I was very surprised that it wasn't the 'fits through screen/sieve' model. Because, of course, everyone knows that as a "truth".

 

The 3m technical materials expanded on that a lot. And how it is incorporated to a filter design targeted at filtering ________, and how important the additional ways it catches particles are.

 

I thought the urine was to resist one of the gas agents?

 

With using the cotton bandana in heat (90 F +), I tried damping it and I tried wetting it. It was nice for evaporating and cooling. For filtering, for me it seemed the same at first, then perhaps slightly better, then very much worse. I'm guessing the cotton fibres that were doing the work got coated/clumped with the now wetted super fine clay particles, affecting how much of which size of particles it was catching. So I stuck with what moisture it got from my breath. 

I don't know. I'd assumed it was a mix of its physical structure and the way the threaded fibre has air paths through and bits sticking out and then out more finely, and so on, creating more effective surface area than the mere area of the "surface" of the idealized thread. Or that combined with it's charge behaviour.

 

It may only take one, but how many can your body fight off. This is why weak, reduced immune function or sick people are usually the most susceptible. (2019-nCoV is reported to use a certain receptor in the lung, of which Asian Males are known to have ~double the usual number)

All you need to do is reduce your exposure down to the level that your body can fight off. Knowing where that is, ....? So you do what you can.

 

Which is why I posted this earlier. 

Which surprised me as the emphasis made is that surgical masks are designed to keep droplets in (expelling and infecting others), not keep droplets out (you from inhaling droplets).

 

 

I don’t know if gas agent resistance was part of it or not.  I remember they were famous for not working very well.  Might have been misuse.  
 

Cotton is practically pure cellulose. Iirc Nitrocellulose, “guncotton” or cordite, was made by soaking cotton in nitric acid.

 Makes me wonder how rayon might do.  It’s cellulose too, and it’s got even more charge which is why it’s famous for picking up odors. (and releasing them later) The fibers have a different structure though.  They’re continuous, rather than a yarn, but they also look very different.  I don’t know if it’s hydroscopic or not.   I don’t know if hydroscopic even matters.  It’s a bit annoying that this is something which has obviously been known about for along time yet I can’t find it in the internet.  If cotton works but rayon doesn’t it would imply the structure would be involved.

Edited February 11, 2020 by LogicalDrm

[Bombastinator]

51 minutes ago, Teddy07 said:

Omg

Not even here can you escape the crazy hype

Which crazy hype?  There so many kinds.

[tech.guru]

first death outside china from virus

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/02/world/asia/china-coronavirus.html

 

“In his last few days, the patient was stable and showed signs of improvement,” said the health secretary, Francisco Duque III. “However, the condition of the patient deteriorated within his last 24 hours, resulting in his demise.”

[Teddy07]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

Which crazy hype?  There so many kinds.

I mean the hype surrounding the virus in general. You hear it all day everday in the media. It is just making money with fearmongering and people go along with it.

[Canoe]

On 2/2/2020 at 12:42 PM, Bombastinator said:

... Makes me wonder how rayon might do.  It’s cellulose too, and it’s got even more charge which is why it’s famous for picking up odors. (and releasing them later) The fibers have a different structure though.  They’re continuous, rather than a yarn, but they also look very different.  I don’t know if it’s hydroscopic or not.   I don’t know if hydroscopic even matters.  It’s a bit annoying that this is something which has obviously been known about for along time yet I can’t find it in the internet.  If cotton works but rayon doesn’t it would imply the structure would be involved.

All aspects likely contribute. Just a matter of how much for each.

I'm sure the leaders in filter development are very well aware, but that's highly likely company secrets.

With the 3m briefs, I remember that for under a given micron, they were most involved with the charge.

 

If it works, nothing wrong with different materials for different layers.

 

***

• The Chinese National Health Commission (CNHC) is reporting a new number for Suspected Cases, 19,533 as of end of February 1, 2020. The CDC number is 17,998.
• Here's the graph with the CNHC number. It places the Total of Confirmed + Suspected cases over 34,000.
• It is unknown how many of Suspected cases end up as Confirmed cases.

 

In support of earlier allegations supposedly out of Wuhan, I've seen claims on twitter that there are news reports that hospitals in Wuhan have more recently had plenty of test kits, and they are restricting tests - to those that present with more severe symptoms. This means mild cases that would not be admitted and treated, are not tested, hence not Detected and added to Confirmed.

 

Some will say that is for keeping Confirmed numbers down; but it is also a valid conservation of test kits, as they're surely in this for the long haul, to try to ensure they do not end up in short supply of kits for testing those that present with more severe symptoms. Makes sense. Present below a threshold, no test & sent home (added to Suspected?). Above that threshold, tested, then rejected or Confirmed. Need to know for determining what treatments are required, and what isolation is required. And you don't want to mix flu patients in with 2019-nCoV patients and have each also catch what the other has. Suspected climbs well in sync with Confirmed. Perhaps this is one source of their Suspected numbers, if not the major one.

 

[williamcll]

9 hours ago, Canoe said:

Except as already noted:

• Reports are thousands are being sent home without being tested and without being seen. Do they have 2019-nCoV, or a flu, or ?
• First under way, 1,000 beds, second to come, 1,300 beds.

 

Flu, I mentioned earlier that there were over 75 thousand people with flu symptoms but could not be diagnosed with NCov.

[oskar23]

[KnoT]

11 minutes ago, oskar23 said:

 

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

 

Thankfully its not spreading that fast.

[oskar23]

4 minutes ago, KnoT said:

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

 

Thankfully its not spreading that fast.

Ive seen the  map. Question is based on what  it is updated?  There will be official and unofficial information when it comes to numbers. There may be thousands that are infected but they are not confirmed yet. Also i dont think every single person that is sick is part of this growing number.

[KnoT]

1 minute ago, oskar23 said:

Ive seen the  map. Question is based on what  it is updated?  There will be official and unofficial information when it comes to numbers. There may be thousands that are infected but they are not confirmed yet. Also i dont think every single person that is sick is part of this growing number.

[Letgomyleghoe]

16 hours ago, Canoe said:

Respirator filters need replacing too. With the right filter, respirators are effective, IF the fit is correct. Most people are not trained on how to wear a respirator such that it has a seal to their face. The leaks have less resistance to airflow than through the respirator's filter(s), so they will still be breathing in droplets.

Yeah ik masks don't really help with anything except keeping your germs with you, respirators still have filters but atleast they're affective.

 

Hmm maybe all those gasmask cartridges i saved up will come in handy