Rocket League dropping support for MacOS and Linux. Refunds offered...kind of

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, wasab said:

The act of giving away something for nothing is already operating at a loss. Stop being so cynical. Humans aren't as self serving as you think. 

I'm not being cynical, it's how charitable organizations work. You think the CEO of World Vision works for free? You think transporting food around the world costs nothing?

 

Nothing to do with self serving, there just is no such thing as free.

 

1 hour ago, wasab said:

Linux have more use than just playing rocket league. I already said if one software is enough to make or break a platform, then that platform is simply not versatile enough. You are still speaking issues which I clearly addressed.

And it takes more than one brick to build a building, I think you may have missed the importance of each brick.

 

1 hour ago, wasab said:

You are totally missing the point why we use Linux and why we choose to game on Linux. 

Why you use Linux. Am I you? Is everyone you?

 

Good luck gaming on Linux when there are no bricks left.

 

Edit:

Also I said nothing about people switching back, that is all you.

[wasab]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

I'm not being cynical, it's how charitable organizations work. You think the CEO of World Vision works for free? You think transporting food around the world costs nothing?

And so what? Paying the employees/developers so they can spend time to work on FOSS projects are not the same as buying stocks and hoping for a profits. If Foss projects are minimal enough, you do not even need outside contribution. If they want monetary contributions as financial incentives, perhaps they ought to just copy right their source code, spam ads, and profit off it directly. There are many popular Foss projects whose developer have not yet receive a cent and were simply offered appreciation, fame, and thank you. 

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

And it takes more than one brick to build a building, I think you may have missed the importance of each brick.

 

Why you use Linux. Am I you? Is everyone you?

 

Good luck gaming on Linux when there are no bricks left.

 

Edit:

Also I said nothing about people switching back, that is all you.

You think developers do not end support for their softwares on windows at some point? You think you can still have star craft on online servers and expect patches? Really, what are you getting at? Is one software like rocket league enough to sink an operating system and ruin the entire experiences? You are literally crying fire where it doesn't exists. Support for Mac os has been dropped as well. You believe that will deter anyone from using macOS and cause a big effect to the consumer market? 

[leadeater]

49 minutes ago, wasab said:

You think developers do not end support for their softwares on windows at some point? You think you can still have star craft on online servers and expect patches? Really, what are you getting at? Is one software like rocket league enough to sink an operating system and ruin the entire experiences? You are literally crying fire where it doesn't exists. Support for Mac os has been dropped as well. You believe that will deter anyone from using macOS and cause a big effect the consumer market? 

Windows gets replacements for retired software, where are the replacements for the Linux native games becoming unsupported? Seriously you're getting way too bent out of shape, nobody is crying fire. The reality is simple, games going from supported to not supported is a step backwards for Linux gaming, it makes no difference whether you like the game or not. Same for Mac. Stop making this an argument about people not using the OS, it's about gaming. Where have I ever implied it would make people switch away from Linux or Mac OS? Where have I ever implied it will impact the current general usage of either OS? You're just constructing an argument to knock it down, one that was never there.

 

You do not gain support from users by having less, it's not a good look to see a shrinking software ecosystem if you are a GAMER.

 

If Linux gaming really is going to improve the first step in my view is for Steam to put in their terms of service for publishers support for Proton, no more banning people for using it.

 

Anything non gaming the door is to your left, right above it you'll see a sign "I don't care".

[wasab]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Windows gets replacements for retired software, where are the replacements for the Linux native games becoming unsupported? Seriously you're getting way too bent out of shape, nobody is crying fire. The reality is simple, games going from supported to not supported is a step backwards for Linux gaming, it makes no difference whether you like the game or not. Same for Mac. Stop making this an argument about people not using the OS, it's about gaming. Where have I ever implied it would make people switch away from Linux or Mac OS? Where have I ever implied it will impact the current general usage of either OS? You're just constructing an argument to knock it down, one that was never there.

If you are going to say one developer dropping support for one native game to be a step backward, you are clearly not seeing the landscape of linux gaming in general. I said this countless time, linux gamers has never rely on developer support or worry about the number of native titles in general. This was true before steam, and especially true now with steam. Your step backward is no backward at all. 

https://www.protondb.com/app/252950

 

It is platinum status which is literally plug and play, native or not. 

[Sir0Tek]

12 hours ago, Dutch_Master said:

I don't use Ubuntu and it's been a while since I last installed a proprietary driver, so I guess I'm a little outdated then. Thx 4 clarifying that.

Ah, that explains it. My first thought after reading it was 'what is this guy talking about...' since I just vaguely remember the cli-issues with nvidia-cards, usually due to its kernel-module. On AMD/ATI you usually use the free/mesa drivers, there's very little need to go with the proprietary since fglrx has died (for good) years ago.

I'm on Arch and Debian usually, but I do have 2 Mint (Ubuntu) systems also.

And no, you are usually not forced to immediately restart after an update on linux, albeit the use of the updated kernel (and respective modules) will just come to effect with a restart. 

On windows it's slightly different, they circumvent the 'restart now' issue by just downloading updates during a session and effectively installing it at shutdown/restart. 

[Sir0Tek]

On topic:

The problem with this specific case here is they do change the actual game and its rules while locking some of its buyers out and keeping others in. If they had left the actual game as it is while presenting a follow-up (rl2, rl-extreme or whatever) for Win7+ only, with EAC and whatsoever included, then there would be very little outcry.

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, wasab said:

If you are going to say one developer dropping support for one native game to be a step backward, you are clearly not seeing the landscape of linux gaming in general. I said this countless time, linux gamers has never rely on developer support or worry about the number of native titles in general. This was true before steam, and especially true now with steam. Your step backward is no backward at all. 

https://www.protondb.com/app/252950

So you're ignoring what I sad about others not using Linux for the same reason you do, or wish to? Yea that's great. That's the same logic as arguing FX processors are good at gaming, while you can, you'd be a fool to not buy the other thing for the same price known to be actually good at the thing you want to do.

 

Your counter argument to what I raised is less competition is fine or better? So glad we had 10 years of mediocre from AMD in the CPU department, that was great for everyone wasn't. It is a step back, we're talking about one of the largest actively played games currently.

 

We just lost equal treatment of an important title, it did not cease development on Windows, it did on Linux and Mac OS. Step backwards for both.

 

2 hours ago, wasab said:

It is platinum status which is literally plug and play, native or not. 

Other than basically all online games banning Proton users, platinum status ban hammer. Perfectly fine situation right? Until Steam brings in mandated protection for Proton users it's not a viable tool for online or multiplayer.

[wasab]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

So you're ignoring what I sad about others not using Linux for the same reason you do, or wish to? 

Do I care about you or others reason to not using Linux? I am telling you those who game on Linux do not care if rocket league is drop or believe in your nonsense that Linux gaming has been taking steps backwards. If you want to refute that go ahead. You are just arguing against common sense. 

 

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

So glad we had 10 years of mediocre from AMD in the CPU department, that was great for everyone wasn't. It is a step back, we're talking about one of the largest actively played games currently.

 

We just lost equal treatment of an important title, it did not cease development on Windows, it did on Linux and Mac OS. Step backwards for both.

Linux competing against windows for gaming makes as much sense as Microsoft Xbox is competing against microsoft Windows for gaming. Linux and windows can be dual booted just as console and a computer can both be found in a living room. A gain on one platform doesn't mean a decrease for the other. In fact, the number of linux users have been steady increasing over the years. Microsoft windows simply grew faster so the percentage remains unchanged. 

[Kisai]

On 1/31/2020 at 6:54 AM, SOLO_AVENGER said:

Why don't they just use Vulkan instead of DX11?

That doesn't solve much.

 

In a similar line of thinking "why not just use OpenGL"

 

If they write the game for Vulkan, they can still have it run on MacOS X and Linux and the Vulkan-to-Metal layer is available. 

 

It's likely that they wrote the game against DX12 and there's no direct solution for DX12 to Vulkan. Just initializing Vulkan requires 30 times the amount of code that initializing the same thing on OpenGL or DX9 does. But once you do, it's clear sailing since you don't have to fight the OS drivers, assuming you are not a sloppy coder. This is why a lot of indie devs have just been using off the shelf game engines (eg Unity, Godot, Xenko, etc), but none of these game engines support Vulkan at the moment, and even some other ones like Game Maker Studio have plans for Vulkan. Like if you're an indie dev right now, none of the existing solutions look good other than using Unreal Engine (which already does Vulkan, and runs on Linux), and that's a massive game engine just to do indie work.

 

Guess who owns Unreal Engine? Epic. 

[IdlePX]

31 minutes ago, wasab said:

Do I care about you or others reason to not using Linux? I am telling you those who game on Linux do not care if rocket league is drop or believe in your nonsense that Linux gaming has been taking steps backwards.

I game on Linux. I care. You don't speak for me.

 

I would say it's a step back for Linux. We've just lost a major esports title and withdrawing Linux support for a game in this way sets a nasty precedent for other games. Especially those that the Epic store hoovers up as we loose Proton on them too.

[leadeater]

32 minutes ago, wasab said:

Do I care about you or others reason to not using Linux? I am telling you those who game on Linux do not care if rocket league is drop or believe in your nonsense that Linux gaming has been taking steps backwards. If you want to refute that go ahead. You are just arguing against common sense. 

I didn't say not using Linux, I said not for the reason you do. Not everyone aligns with the ideological idea of using a platform that you do. I am refuting you now and before, you're just ignoring what I'm saying to hang on to the idea that the only people that use Linux or want to use Linux is because it's FOSS.

 

Last time I used Linux as a primary OS and to game on, back in Ubuntu 6.06 using an ATI X800, had nothing to do with FOSS. I used both WineHQ and Cydega and you know the reason I gave it a go? Because I was interested in the technical differences, how it would perform, as an educational experience. Neither Free nor Open Source was a factor in me trying.

 

39 minutes ago, wasab said:

Linux competing against windows for gaming makes as much sense as Microsoft Xbox is competing against microsoft Windows for gaming.

I makes no sense because it's not a thing now, there is zero reason it cannot be a mainstream gaming platform, other than resistance in supporting it becoming a thing.

[wasab]

2 minutes ago, IdlePX said:

I game on Linux. I care. You don't speak for me.

 

I would say it's a step back for Linux. We've just lost a major esports title and withdrawing Linux support for a game in this way sets a nasty precedent for other games. Especially those that the Epic store hoovers up as we loose Proton on them too.

It's a step back for good companies that do not stab their customers in the back by ending support, not Linux platform itself. I share the same sentiment as Gardiner on this development. 

Just get your refund, such company does not deserve your money. 

[Kisai]

6 hours ago, leadeater said:

 

If Linux gaming really is going to improve the first step in my view is for Steam to put in their terms of service for publishers support for Proton, no more banning people for using it.

 

Anything non gaming the door is to your left, right above it you'll see a sign "I don't care".

Linux will never have first class gaming support because solutions like Proton are basically a hack, and MMO operators do not like Linux users using hacks since they are assumed they are cheating or botting.

 

That's also why a lot of people stop playing MMO games, because the bots overrun the PvP leaderboards, MMORPG crafting boards, and so on, they never have to sleep. That's not Linux's fault, but since the vast majority of bannable offenses are caused by not running on a supported configuration, it's safer to ban with the assumption that the user is running a bot than to assume the user is actually a gamer on Linux.

 

What has to happen on Linux is to stop moving the goal posts with API's designed for gaming. You pretty much can not even run a 4 month old game on a Linux-native machine because the exact-version support libraries will not exist outside that one version of the OS.

[wasab]

7 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I didn't say not using Linux, I said not for the reason you do. Not everyone aligns with the ideological idea of using a platform that you do. I am refuting you now and before, you're just ignoring what I'm saying to hang on to the idea that the only people that use Linux or want to use Linux is because it's FOSS.

 

Last time I used Linux as a primary OS and to game on, back in Ubuntu 6.06 using an ATI X800, had nothing to do with FOSS. I used both WineHQ and Cydega and you know the reason I gave it a go? Because I was interested in the technical differences, how it would perform, as an educational experience. Neither Free nor Open Source was a factor in me trying.

 

I makes no sense because it's not a thing now, there is zero reason it cannot be a mainstream gaming platform, other than resistance in supporting it becoming a thing.

Dude, whatever you said does not change the fact that the Linux gaming community is alive and healthly. Look at the gross game sales.

 

No one is championing FOSS games. I said Foss softwares as a reason that draws people to Linux, not as a reason why people want to game on Linux. 

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Kisai said:

Linux will never have first class gaming support because solutions like Proton are basically a hack, and MMO operators do not like Linux users using hacks since they are assumed they are cheating or botting.

Yea I know they don't like it but the problem is Proton is the best thing we're going to get to raise the profile of Linux gaming to a wider degree. It's not the solution but it's part of the path that can lead to it becoming a thing. I'm sure Steam can work with the industry to find a more secure way of running the games, I'm just not sure the industry is interested.

 

It's like this situation, DX11 was chosen over Vulkan because the cross platform benefit likely wasn't seen as a commercial benefit due to the low market potential outside of Windows.

 

I'd actually be interested if it would be easier to create an actually effective way to prevent cheating on Linux compared to Windows.

[leadeater]

5 minutes ago, wasab said:

No one is championing FOSS games. I said Foss softwares as a reason that draws people to Linux, not as a reason why people want to game on Linux.

Did I say FOSS games? You raised the point about FOSS and why people use Linux, not everyone does for that reason. Also you got newer data than 2016? And what is the source?

 

The gaming industry as a whole is a 140 billion dollars, I get the feeling your data set is rather limited.

[wasab]

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Did I say FOSS games? You raised the point about FOSS and why people use Linux, not everyone does for that reason. Also you got newer data than 2016? And what is the source?

How many people are going to game on Linux instead of Windows simply for the sake of gaming on Linux? There are other user experiences on Linux that made it as a platform of their choice. You seem to think people switch to Linux gaming just because it has steam and a large gaming library. How does that make sense? For the former, windows has steam too, and for latter, it has bigger library plus it is preinstall on your machine.

 

If you want to cite experiment and general curiosity, no one is gonna be curious and experimental enough to keep Linux as their main operating systems for years on. By Linux gamers, I refer to those who use Linux as their daily driver, not those who just boot, poke around for a few weeks and then forget about it. 

 

9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The gaming industry as a whole is a 140 billion dollars, I get the feeling your data set is rather limited.

2013-2016 Linux game library was smaller and proton did not exist. Why do you think 2013-present day would contradict that? 

 

Finally, it is found on Forbes. You can read about it yourself. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2018/09/04/gaming-on-linux-2-ridiculous-myths-and-2-brutal-truths/#36f1468e5524

[leadeater]

21 minutes ago, wasab said:

How many people are going to game on Linux instead of Windows simply for the sake of gaming on Linux? There are other user experiences on Linux that made it as a platform of their choice. You seem to think people switch to Linux gaming just because it has steam and a large gaming library. How does that make sense? For the former, windows has steam too, and for latter, it has bigger library plus it is preinstall on your machine.

I think you have completely missed the point, I didn't say people were switching to Linux for the sake of gaming I said losing support of a large title is a blow to that becoming a thing, that means it's not a thing now.

 

If you go back to the start you'll see I was advocating for Linux to keep improving to the point that it is a legitimate choice for gamers on that factor alone. That is how this news is a step back, because any loss of a major title is a step back.

 

You've got it stuck in your head that I'm saying gaming on Linux is dead or dying, gaming on Linux is nothing but improving as of recent but it's never good to be having to take a step back. Industry wide Linux gaming is still extremely small, we both know this.

 

21 minutes ago, wasab said:

If you want to cite experiment and general curiosity, no one is gonna be curious and experimental enough to keep Linux as their main operating systems for years on. By Linux gamers, I refer to those who use Linux as their daily driver, not those who just boot, poke around for a few weeks and then forget about it. 

Any reason to give Linux a try is good, I have no idea why you are so resistant to the idea. FOSS should never be the only reason to. In the future a gamer could be using Linux as their only OS, but you seem to not want that. 

 

21 minutes ago, wasab said:

2013-2016 Linux game library was smaller and proton did not exist. Why do you think 2013-present day would contradict that? 

 

Finally, it is found on Forbes. You can read about it yourself. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2018/09/04/gaming-on-linux-2-ridiculous-myths-and-2-brutal-truths/#36f1468e5524

Why did you assume that's what I thought. I just wanted to see more up to date data because important factors have changed. Also the data source is Humble Bundle, as I suspected very limited data set.

[Kisai]

36 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yea I know they don't like it but the problem is Proton is the best thing we're going to get to raise the profile of Linux gaming to a wider degree. It's not the solution but it's part of the path that can lead to it becoming a thing. I'm sure Steam can work with the industry to find a more secure way of running the games, I'm just not sure the industry is interested.

 

It's like this situation, DX11 was chosen over Vulkan because the cross platform benefit likely wasn't seen as a commercial benefit due to the low market potential outside of Windows.

 

I'd actually be interested if it would be easier to create an actually effective way to prevent cheating on Linux compared to Windows.

Multi-threaded render libraries would probably be harder to port since there are no cross-platform thread libraries that work on Windows and Linux as their threading models are completely different. 

 

At any rate, I imagine the lifetime on the game itself is probably reduced already if they're not willing to support Linux if they previously did. Which just speaks to the common problem that there is no money made on selling software on Linux, you only make it on selling support. To that end it doesn't matter of the software was free or a subscription.

[Curious Pineapple]

Loosing support for anything is a blow to a platform. I'm developing a PoS/Kiosk application and due to lack of drivers, SDK support and application support, I have to use Windows. I would much rather use Linux, but the hardware support just isn't there. The best result I got with my NCR printer was the printer spewing out metres of raw data. Then there's the touch panels. Some work, some don't. I've not even tried cameras, code readers, FP scanners etc yet.

 

The point here is there is limited vendor Linux support for the hardware I need to use, so I can't use the OS. If most kiosk applications use Windows for compatability, manufacturers won't offer Linux drivers. Sound familiar? I may find that it is a single piece of hardware that stops me from using the platform, and I won't be pissing around maintaining 2 seperate versions of the software just so I can use Windows when I need to.

[IdlePX]

1 hour ago, wasab said:

By Linux gamers, I refer to those who use Linux as their daily driver, not those who just boot, poke around for a few weeks and then forget about it. 

Again, blanket statements, you don't speak for me. I use Elementary OS as my only OS. I used Mandriva/Mandrake pre 2004, and from 2004 onwards I have never had a PC or laptop that had anything other than Linux on. If anything came with Windows I just formatted the drive and plonked Linux over the top. 

 

I bought every decent game that was ported to Linux before games got proper Linux ports (remember the original Prey?). I gobbled up the early Humble Bundles. I never used Wine, but I have dived in with Proton, as it's one click, no set up. I just turn it on in Steam and click install.

 

I currently have the following games installed. Alien Isolation, DOTA Underlords, Portal 1 & 2, Hollow Knight, Little Inferno, Mythgard, Ori and the Blind Forest, Tomb Raider, Rise of the Tomb Raider, Skyrim, Witcher 1, 2 and 3, Tooth and Tail, Wakfu, Pyre and Transistor. Most of those games are native. I am 100% a Linux user and I should sure as heck hope I qualify as a Linux gamer.

 

 

[wasab]

4 hours ago, IdlePX said:

Again, blanket statements, you don't speak for me. I use Elementary OS as my only OS. I used Mandriva/Mandrake pre 2004, and from 2004 onwards I have never had a PC or laptop that had anything other than Linux on. If anything came with Windows I just formatted the drive and plonked Linux over the top. 

Go complain in a blog and go to the press then and maybe developer will take pity on you. I seriously don't understand why you are placing the blame on an operating system instead of the company that are dropping support for it. Doesn't matter if you care about rocket league deeply. That game has 0 relevance in the grand scheme of things and barely make a dent. 

[DrMacintosh]

I used my refund to get $10 worth of ZEN for Star Trek Online. Bought 10 lockbox keys and got a Epic grade console that increases my ships maximum damage output by 20%, pretty neat. Much better than owning Rocket League imo. 

[Curious Pineapple]

2 minutes ago, wasab said:

Go complain in a blog and go to the press then and maybe developer will take pity on you. I seriously don't understand why you are placing the blame on an operating system instead of the company that are dropping support for it. Doesn't matter if you care about rocket league deeply. That game has 0 relevance in the grand scheme of things and barely make a dent. 

No-one is blaming Linux, everyone is pointing out that dropping support for a platform which already has a low percentage of users isn't going to help it.

 

I just spent an hour getting a printer to print on Linux, with the manufacturers Linux driver, and it's still useless. Not the fault of the OS, but if hardware doesn't work I can't use the OS. Should I go buy another printer and hope that it is always available, or should I just dump Linux and use Windows as it works?

[JMG 2]

Why not a lot of people want to move because apple computers cost so much. This is a crappy move. I just want to know why this is happening.