Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, NumLock21 said: There are scammer everywhere not just for PCs. Scammers will always scam at every opportunity they can get, even to the point one might think that's impossible or they're just making it up. This is true. I think the OP has found something interesting. I suspect that it’s not about them being IT though, but about the characteristics of the product itself. If this is true other devices with other characteristics in segments other than IT will have similar issues, and other products IN IT that do not have those characteristics won’t. If this turns out to be the case, then the solution is to change the characteristics of the products that have this problem. Not a pro, not even very good. I’m just old and have time currently. Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake. Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 18, 2020 10 hours ago, Kisai said: Selling it and Shipping it are two separate issues. Because it's highway robbery to ship anything bigger than a postcard, especially internationally, if it's not worth at least $100, it's not worth the effort to have shipped. That's why people will basically ignore anything that isn't free shipping, and the only companies that can afford to do free shipping move so much volume that it doesn't matter. Oh yeah, shipping is definitely something else to consider. I've done shipping overseas before and it ain't cheap. I sent a pair of Abit AN7's I had repaired and used for a short time to Australia for a teammate once and the shipping was insane compared to domestic. Even domestic shipping now is a rip and you see it with some of the shipping costs within fleabay listings but that's how it goes. "If you ever need anything please don't hesitate to ask someone else first"..... Nirvana "Whadda ya mean I ain't kind? Just not your kind"..... Megadeth Speaking of things being "All Inclusive", Hell itself is too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 18, 2020 On 1/16/2020 at 1:55 PM, Mira Yurizaki said: This is why I don't want to sell on eBay. What's stopping a scammer from claiming I sent them a defective part and demanding a refund? eBay/PayPal favor the buyer over the seller. Exactly why I try to sell online (in general) as little as possible. I just don't trust people. I like to think I'm a "good person", and that most others are too. It's naïve, sure. Many people are obviously not of the same mindset. Not only is the guy pictured in the OP a cheat, he's also stupid. Heck when I package something for a return I try and make it as close to what I got out of the new box as possible. Someone told Luke and Linus at CES 2017 to "Unban the legend known as Jerakl" and that's about all I've got going for me. (It didn't work) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 18, 2020 On 1/17/2020 at 1:41 AM, Jae Tee said: Overall in our company these are trends we see But what is your company selling? Point is that if what you're selling is mostly PC parts it's pretty normal for most of such scams that you see to be about PC parts... F@H Desktop: i9-13900K, ASUS Z790-E, 64GB DDR5-6000 CL36, RTX3080, 2TB MP600 Pro XT, 2TB SX8200Pro, 2x16TB Ironwolf RAID0, Corsair HX1200, Antec Vortex 360 AIO, Thermaltake Versa H25 TG, Samsung 4K curved 49" TV, 23" secondary, Mountain Everest Max Mobile SFF rig: i9-9900K, Noctua NH-L9i, Asrock Z390 Phantom ITX-AC, 32GB, GTX1070, 2x1TB SX8200Pro RAID0, 2x5TB 2.5" HDD RAID0, Athena 500W Flex (Noctua fan), Custom 4.7l 3D printed case Asus Zenbook UM325UA, Ryzen 7 5700u, 16GB, 1TB, OLED GPD Win 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 18, 2020 Regarding Amazon returns in general... Amazon have a pretty decent policy for 'immediate' returns... but trying to return anything after a few weeks or longer is a nightmare. Trying to get amazon to honour the UK's consumer laws in general regarding warranty is kinda non existent. UK laws state that you go to the point of sale (the retailer you purchased from) to deal with warranty issues within the first 2yrs. It also states that products must be of reasonable quality and durability. Which means you can even have reason to ask for repair/replacement OUTSIDE of thee warranty. For example a TV that breaks 2 months after the warranty runs out... is NOT or reasonable quality and durability. Once you are outside of the warranty, you deal with the manufacturer.... but with Amazon... you deal with them for everything as Amazon don;t give a crap about local consumer laws nor acting responsibly... and I'm talking about stuff sold and dispatched by Amazon, not 3rd parties. So when you are faced with utter arsehole policies like that... the easiest and most effective option is to treat them how they treat customers. Had an SSD that failed after 4 months and they refuse to honour the warranty... don;t want the hassle of months trying to deal with some manufacturer out in East Asia who can barely speak English and it takes forever to do anything basic... the solution... buy the same device and immediately return the old one as faulty. Amazon are a victim of their own policies on this... I have no sympathy for them at all. They created the problem and there will always be people who try to push the boundaries. System 1: Gigabyte Aorus B450 Pro, Ryzen 5 2600X, 32GB Corsair Vengeance 3200mhz, Sapphire 5700XT, 250GB NVME WD Black, 2x Crucial MX5001TB, 2x Seagate 3TB, H115i AIO, Sharkoon BW9000 case with corsair ML fans, EVGA G2 Gold 650W Modular PSU, liteon bluray/dvd/rw.. NO RGB aside from MB and AIO pump. Triple 27" Monitor setup (1x 144hz, 2x 75hz, all freesync/freesync 2) System 2: Asus M5 MB, AMD FX8350, 16GB DDR3, Sapphire RX580, 30TB of storage, 250GB SSD, Silverstone HTPC chassis, Corsair 550W Modular PSU, Noctua cooler, liteon bluray/dvd/rw, 4K HDR display (Samsung TV) System 3 & 4: nVidia shield TV (2017 & 2019) Pro with extra 128GB samsung flash drives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 18, 2020 31 minutes ago, Anomnomnomaly said: Tying to get amazon to honour the UK's consumer laws in general regarding warranty is kinda non existent. UK laws state that you go to the point of sale (the retailer you purchased from) to deal with warranty issues within the first 2yrs. It also states that products must be of reasonable quality and durability. Which means you can even have reason to ask for repair/replacement OUTSIDE of thee warranty. For example a TV that breaks 2 months after the warranty runs out... is NOT or reasonable quality and durability. Sounds like what we have here ( in my province, not sure about the rest of Canada). Unfortunately, to be able to make a company follow the law, you often have to threaten them, contact the consumer protection agency and even in some case, bring them to small claims court. If you need help with your forum account, please use the Forum Support form ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 19, 2020 On 1/16/2020 at 10:48 PM, Jae Tee said: At in of itself over clocking A CPU automatically voids the warranty, and there is no guarantee that it will be successful. First I want to pick this one. Is this mentioned in your Terns? AFAIK OCing doesn't void warranty of any CPU/GPU sold in retail. Haven't voided in several years after when OCing became mainstream. On 1/16/2020 at 11:00 PM, Jae Tee said: I'm just going on stats. I'm not blaming a group of people, I AM blaming a market. On 1/16/2020 at 11:41 PM, Jae Tee said: Overall in our company these are trends we see. It is possible other companies see different results, but i'm coming from multiple locations. That said this was not to bash people, I'm just trying to affirm EVERYONE regardless of ther track record to refrain from this. Two things about this. When you have title with "Community" and "Toxic" you are in fact blaming people, not market. And whole group or community of that. I would recommend that you edit the title to better represent this. Also, this is far from toxic. I was expecting seeing feces in those bags or swearing, name calling etc. on chat exchange. As that would be toxic behavior. Second thing. You talk about having stats. But you don't give the actual stats. How many wrongfully returned items there actually are from all returns? Like in percentage? Versus how many items sold overall? Just in percentages is enough. If the wrongful returns would be majority of the returns, and/or significant amount of whole sold volume, like over 5% even, then I can understand this more since it takes more time for processing. Something smaller companies don't really have funds or people for. ^^^^ That's my post ^^^^ <-- This is me --- That's your scrollbar --> vvvv Who's there? vvvv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 20, 2020 Author 19 hours ago, LogicalDrm said: First I want to pick this one. Is this mentioned in your Terns? AFAIK OCing doesn't void warranty of any CPU/GPU sold in retail. Haven't voided in several years after when OCing became mainstream. Two things about this. When you have title with "Community" and "Toxic" you are in fact blaming people, not market. And whole group or community of that. I would recommend that you edit the title to better represent this. Also, this is far from toxic. I was expecting seeing feces in those bags or swearing, name calling etc. on chat exchange. As that would be toxic behavior. Second thing. You talk about having stats. But you don't give the actual stats. How many wrongfully returned items there actually are from all returns? Like in percentage? Versus how many items sold overall? Just in percentages is enough. If the wrongful returns would be majority of the returns, and/or significant amount of whole sold volume, like over 5% even, then I can understand this more since it takes more time for processing. Something smaller companies don't really have funds or people for. You know what, I will edit the title now that you asked. I'll respond to the rest a little later. At me or quote me, I want to hear your opinion. Hopefully anything I say is factually correct. Sorry for any mistakes in advanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 20, 2020 5 hours ago, Jae Tee said: You know what, I will edit the title now that you asked. I'll respond to the rest a little later. Even though you edited the title, and you add "part of" and "my opinion" you're still going after, and sound as you're referring to the whole PC Community, what most of us meant by edit/change your title was literally change the whole thing to something like "I hate when people do this, why is it so popular?" or "Why is this scam so common with tech components?" Like most of us have said, your title(even with your edited in parenthesis) makes it sound like you are referring to all of us in the PC Community rather than just the minority of it that may do this, who knows most of the people that do it may not even be apart of the the PC Community it could just be some random person who thought why not, I see people on my local classifieds that literally just resell things for a living and most of them also sell computer parts just because of how popular they are now and there is good money in it, they know nothing about them other than price and what Amazon or Best Buy says about them. And as @LogicalDrm asked I would also love to see your statistics on this. Main Desktop: CPU - i9-14900k | Mobo - Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite AX DDR4 | GPU - ASUS TUF Gaming OC RTX 4090 | RAM - Corsair Vengeance Pro RGB 64GB 3600mhz | AIO - H150i Pro XT | PSU - Corsair RM1000X | Case - Phanteks P500A Digital - White | Storage - Samsung 970 Pro M.2 NVME SSD 512GB / Sabrent Rocket 1TB Nvme / Samsung 860 Evo Pro 500GB / Samsung 970 EVO Plus 2tb Nvme / Samsung 870 QVO 4TB | TV Streaming PC: Intel Nuc CPU - i7 8th Gen | RAM - 16GB DDR4 2666mhz | Storage - 256GB WD Black M.2 NVME SSD | Phone: Samsung Galaxy Z Fold 4 - Phantom Black 512GB | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Jae Tee said: You know what, I will edit the title now that you asked. I'll respond to the rest a little later. Not sure how long you've work there, but it seems you got this idea, just because you're in this field even for a day, automatically makes you an expert, and what you've said is right. If that's how your mind thinks, you need to change it. Intel Xeon E5 1650 v3 @ 3.5GHz 6C:12T / CM212 Evo / Asus X99 Deluxe / 16GB (4x4GB) DDR4 3000 Trident-Z / Samsung 850 Pro 256GB / Intel 335 240GB / WD Red 2 & 3TB / Antec 850w / RTX 2070 / Win10 Pro x64 HP Envy X360 15: Intel Core i5 8250U @ 1.6GHz 4C:8T / 8GB DDR4 / Intel UHD620 + Nvidia GeForce MX150 4GB / Intel 120GB SSD / Win10 Pro x64 HP Envy x360 BP series Intel 8th gen AMD ThreadRipper 2! 5820K & 6800K 3-way SLI mobo support list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 20, 2020 Good for you for being vigilant. I guess online sales and service just reflect the real world. This kind of stuff is why I try to be nice to people who work in brick and mortar stores and online services. It is just a fact that a certain small but constant amount of customers want to be a problem or scam. Even if there is no reason to be a problem and even if the scam doesn't really make sense. Some people just like to be bad even if there's no serious money in it. When I've seen it I feel bad for the nice people who have to deal with it because it seems like a small but constant number of people. In the brick stores they seem to look for weak associates. Though some just seem to keep coming back numerous times even though they've been turned away. Like some kind of internet attack lol. On the flip side I've also seen bad associates in brick retail stores. They tell you stuff just to make the sale. Like the new latest graphics card will work on a really old pc with an outdated OS. Some will even mess with certain of the products in the electronics dept. of some stores. Take off discount prices of stuff as soon as they know your going to buy. Making you pay full price. They pretend they can't or don't know how process a store gift cards or just make it take a really long time to process on purpose. So the people in back of you in the store get frustrated and cuss you. Then the old people on TV say stuff like "the kids just won't use the gifts cards people give them. No one knows why." lol I'm an old dude and I can see it. Why can't they? Then sometimes when store managers are not strong or vigilant enough to deal with bad associates. They will even run good customers out of the stores on a regular basis. crazy. Because no one is watching the house and they're just there to get payed and play. That is the weirdest thing but I see it. I feel for the good managers too because they have to deal with both sides of it. It's a constant. If they could just work out an algorithm to tag bad people in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 20, 2020 26 minutes ago, Intergalacticbits said: Good for you for being vigilant. I guess online sales and service just reflect the real world. This kind of stuff is why I try to be nice to people who work in brick and mortar stores and online services. It is just a fact that a certain small but constant amount of customers want to be a problem or scam. Even if there is no reason to be a problem and even if the scam doesn't really make sense. Some people just like to be bad even if there's no serious money in it. When I've seen it I feel bad for the nice people who have to deal with it because it seems like a small but constant number of people. In the brick stores they seem to look for weak associates. Though some just seem to keep coming back numerous times even though they've been turned away. Like some kind of internet attack lol. On the flip side I've also seen bad associates in brick retail stores. They tell you stuff just to make the sale. Like the new latest graphics card will work on a really old pc with an outdated OS. Some will even mess with certain of the products in the electronics dept. of some stores. Take off discount prices of stuff as soon as they know your going to buy. Making you pay full price. They pretend they can't or don't know how process a store gift cards or just make it take a really long time to process on purpose. So the people in back of you in the store get frustrated and cuss you. Then the old people on TV say stuff like "the kids just won't use the gifts cards people give them. No one knows why." lol I'm an old dude and I can see it. Why can't they? Then sometimes when store managers are not strong or vigilant enough to deal with bad associates. They will even run good customers out of the stores on a regular basis. crazy. Because no one is watching the house and they're just there to get payed and play. That is the weirdest thing but I see it. I feel for the good managers too because they have to deal with both sides of it. It's a constant. If they could just work out an algorithm to tag bad people in general. At which point the bad people would notice and attempt to disguise themselves to avoid the algorithm. Or sue. Or provide rare examples where the algorithm produced a false positive and complain. Not a pro, not even very good. I’m just old and have time currently. Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake. Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 20, 2020 Author This isn't based off of an algorithm. I actually go through every return by hand. Unless that wasn't what you meant then carry on... At me or quote me, I want to hear your opinion. Hopefully anything I say is factually correct. Sorry for any mistakes in advanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/16/2020 at 4:30 PM, wkdpaul said: Good to know eBay has changed, my experience back then as a seller left a bad taste in my mouth about it. I still wouldnt trust ebay too much. If it becomes a he said she said situation they will still take the buyers side. Although i have heard stories of them eating the cost instead of the seller. But even if ebay sides with the seller you have to worry about paypal. And even worse if the person paid via their bank card....its basically game over. Ive watched people go into walmart and buy $500 worth of shit and file a dispute with their bank saying it wasnt them and get the money back same day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/16/2020 at 8:55 PM, Mira Yurizaki said: This is why I don't want to sell on eBay. What's stopping a scammer from claiming I sent them a defective part and demanding a refund? eBay/PayPal favor the buyer over the seller. You always record a video of it working and take GOOD pictures of the item. CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5600X | CPU Cooler: Stock AMD Cooler | Motherboard: Asus ROG STRIX B550-F GAMING (WI-FI) | RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3000 CL16 | GPU: Nvidia GTX 1060 6GB Zotac Mini | Case: K280 Case | PSU: Cooler Master B600 Power supply | SSD: 1TB | HDDs: 1x 250GB & 1x 1TB WD Blue | Monitors: 24" Acer S240HLBID + 24" Samsung | OS: Win 10 Pro Audio: Behringer Q802USB Xenyx 8 Input Mixer | U-PHORIA UMC204HD | Behringer XM8500 Dynamic Cardioid Vocal Microphone | Sound Blaster Audigy Fx PCI-E card. Home Lab: Lenovo ThinkCenter M82 ESXi 6.7 | Lenovo M93 Tiny Exchange 2019 | TP-LINK TL-SG1024D 24-Port Gigabit | Cisco ASA 5506 firewall | Cisco Catalyst 3750 Gigabit Switch | Cisco 2960C-LL | HP MicroServer G8 NAS | Custom built SCCM Server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 20, 2020 22 minutes ago, Jae Tee said: This isn't based off of an algorithm. I actually go through every return by hand. Unless that wasn't what you meant then carry on... No I was just tying to be funny. Just kind of wishing in the future people who just like to be bad could be digitally tagged. So as to be more quickly barred from places of business. Online and brick. So the rest of us can have more pleasant lives in general lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) On 1/16/2020 at 10:48 PM, Jae Tee said: So I work for an online retail company, -snip- Atleast it wasn't a 3950x or something I've seen 2080tis returned with a 980 in them or something like that. I do agree however this does need to stop. Edited January 21, 2020 by LogicalDrm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 23, 2020 On 1/16/2020 at 2:13 PM, Quinnell said: That's why I always put "no refunds. sold as is." in my sale page. So far it has worked for me. I took a refund once but it was due to my mistake. that and photos...I've sold stuff on ebay for 20 years or so...I've been scammed as a buyer, but never as a seller. (ebay's policies wind up working for the scammers on either side more often than not.) Motherboard: MSI A320M PRO-VH PLUS ** Processor: AMD Ryzen 2600 3.4 GHz ** Video Card: Nvidia GeForce 1070 TI 8GB Zotac 1070ti Memory: 32GB DDR4 2400 ** Power Supply: 650 Watts Power Supply Thermaltake +80 Bronze Thermaltake PSU 2012 iMac i7 27"; 2007 MBP 2.2 GHZ; Power Mac G5 Dual 2GHZ; B&W G3; Quadra 650; Mac SE iPad Air2; iPhone SE 2020; iPhone 5s; AppleTV 4k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) On 1/16/2020 at 10:48 PM, Jae Tee said: So I work for an online retail company, How is this any different that buying a new game and putting the old broken one in the box and returning it. People do the same with consoles too. I mean this isn't a problem with the pc community, but a problem with immoral people. So you made this sound like it is an issue prevalent to the pc community, but in truth the pc side of things is a very very small part of where this happens. Also, I do not think you should be sharing screenshots like this. This more than likely breaches your companies policy and could possibly end in the loss of employment. Edited January 23, 2020 by LogicalDrm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 23, 2020 As said by others here, scammers and stuff like this doesn't just happen in the pc community. People scam stuff like this all the time. Although it is shitty. Something that I think is a bit more toxic though is people basically bullying people who use mac because its an apple product Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 23, 2020 Author On 1/21/2020 at 11:44 AM, Killing-time-itself said: Atleast it wasn't a 3950x or something I've seen 2080tis returned with a 980 in them or something like that. I do agree however this does need to stop. I'm happy to report, we received a full refund from Amazon on this CPU. I really hope people could stop taking this the wrong way. True it may have sounded a bit harsh from the topic description, but that was not my intent. I am simply trying to bring to your attention that if you are going to sell some of your parts online, or even in person, do your best to catalog and record all info that you can. Furthermore, i myself would consider myself a PC enthusiast. I wouldn't intentionally try to bash a group for no reson, I just want you all to be carefull. At me or quote me, I want to hear your opinion. Hopefully anything I say is factually correct. Sorry for any mistakes in advanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 23, 2020 21 minutes ago, Jae Tee said: I wouldn't intentionally try to bash a group for no reson, I just want you all to be carefull. Yet the title still implicates that your purpose is, in your opinion, to blame PC community as whole. ^^^^ That's my post ^^^^ <-- This is me --- That's your scrollbar --> vvvv Who's there? vvvv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 24, 2020 8 hours ago, LogicalDrm said: Yet the title still implicates that your purpose is, in your opinion, to blame PC community as whole. I did not read the title that way at all, I read "here is an example of things that give our community a bad name, if you do it please stop" He then goes on to explain the experiences he has that directly gives the community a bad name. I didn't see anywhere where the OP was under the impression it was exclusively a PC community issue, or that there aren't other factors. It seems people are offended at the thought that some in the community are like this and are trying to deflect the OP's concerns by both raising parallel accusations toward others and trying to bend his words to mean something they clearly don't (I.E showing us something bad about our community =/= blaming the whole community). Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge. Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 24, 2020 24 minutes ago, mr moose said: I did not read the title that way at all, I read "here is an example of things that give our community a bad name, if you do it please stop" He then goes on to explain the experiences he has that directly gives the community a bad name. I didn't see anywhere where the OP was under the impression it was exclusively a PC community issue, or that there aren't other factors. It seems people are offended at the thought that some in the community are like this and are trying to deflect the OP's concerns by both raising parallel accusations toward others and trying to bend his words to mean something they clearly don't (I.E showing us something bad about our community =/= blaming the whole community). I read it slightly differently. The impression I got was that his impression was that the IT community was worse than other communities as shown by the evidence. I pointed out that the evidence might not point the way he thought it did, because the products mentioned were not actually IT specific even though they were sold in that department. Not a pro, not even very good. I’m just old and have time currently. Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake. Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted January 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said: I read it slightly differently. The impression I got was that his impression was that the IT community was worse than other communities as shown by the evidence. I pointed out that the evidence might not point the way he thought it did, because the products mentioned were not actually IT specific even though they were sold in that department. Interesting. What gives the pc community a toxic name, this has to stop. What gives hairdressers a toxic name, this has to stop. What gives the plumber association a toxic name, this has to stop. What gives the console community a toxic name, this has to stop. I just don't see it being comparative in any way. There isn't even an adjective in there insinuating it is better or worse, just that it happens. Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge. Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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