The end of lightning is nigh, possibly.

[Kisai]

3 hours ago, kaiju_wars said:

Well, a lot of companies are invested in USB, you really think they're going to be like, "lets switch the whole continent to this, for the betterment of everyone else, it is the better connector after all."
No, they won't.  They'll protect their money, and if their money is in USB, it's sticking to USB.  

 

Don't regulate the connector on the device itself.  

Look at AC outlet standards. There is innovation there. Just because North America and Japan standardized on the one that doesn't mean other countries were going to follow suit. Now, why didn't we all standardize on 240V AC? Because of historical reasons. There are still operational DC lines around the North America, and those get converted to 120V at some point during transmission. If every state and province decided on their own outlets and voltages, there would be even more e-waste now. You now see NEMA 20-R outlets in kitchens, and NEMA 14-30 (Clothes Dryers) and 14-50 (used for stoves, RV's and EV's), and then there are GFCI and AFCI outlets which prevent you from killing yourself if your device falls in the tub.

 

Considering how many devices now want between 1 and 20V DC, the real solution would be to mandate a DC bus in all new/renovated housing where batteries and solar panels can also be connected without all the AC-DC conversion losses. Since EV's have batteries, that also can allow a car to send power back into a house during a power outage. This low-voltage DC bus would however have to be designed for input and output.

 

Which again goes back to this myth that no innovation will happen. Standards are good, and USB-C is "just the connector", it's not married to USB 3.1, seeing as how it can be used for Displayport alone and Thunderbolt.

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Look at AC outlet standards. There is innovation there. Just because North America and Japan standardized on the one that doesn't mean other countries were going to follow suit. Now, why didn't we all standardize on 240V AC? Because of historical reasons. There are still operational DC lines around the North America, and those get converted to 120V at some point during transmission. If every state and province decided on their own outlets and voltages, there would be even more e-waste now. You now see NEMA 20-R outlets in kitchens, and NEMA 14-30 (Clothes Dryers) and 14-50 (used for stoves, RV's and EV's), and then there are GFCI and AFCI outlets which prevent you from killing yourself if your device falls in the tub.

 

Considering how many devices now want between 1 and 20V DC, the real solution would be to mandate a DC bus in all new/renovated housing where batteries and solar panels can also be connected without all the AC-DC conversion losses. Since EV's have batteries, that also can allow a car to send power back into a house during a power outage. This low-voltage DC bus would however have to be designed for input and output.

 

Which again goes back to this myth that no innovation will happen. Standards are good, and USB-C is "just the connector", it's not married to USB 3.1, seeing as how it can be used for Displayport alone and Thunderbolt.

 

Mains plugs are mandated for very good safety reasons.  Besides that your example actually proves that innovation stops when the plug is mandated not the other way around.  Many argue the UK plug is safer than the Aus plug, however we will never change because the aus plug is mandated and everywhere,  thus preventing a better connector from being developed/implemented.

[Kisai]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

 

Mains plugs are mandated for very good safety reasons.  Besides that your example actually proves that innovation stops when the plug is mandated not the other way around.  Many argue the UK plug is safer than the Aus plug, however we will never change because the aus plug is mandated and everywhere,  thus preventing a better connector from being developed/implemented.

Would you seriously enjoy having to rewire your home every 5 years when manufacturers decide to release a new appliance?

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Would you seriously enjoy having to rewire your home every 5 years when manufacturers decide to release a new appliance?

 

That wouldn't happen due to market forces.  However the argument still remains, one type of connector is mandated, therefor no other connectors are developed for that specific usage.    We are basically stuck with the plug and socket we have until a major change occurs in the industry (in which case one will phase out while the other phases in).

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Would you seriously enjoy having to rewire your home every 5 years when manufacturers decide to release a new appliance?

I live in a house built in 1929.  It’s had at least 3 rewirings, none of them complete.  The first one prevents me from putting any insulation in my walls.  It also has no ground.

[mr moose]

17 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I live in a house built in 1929.  It’s had at least 3 rewirings, none of them complete.  The first one prevents me from putting any insulation in my walls.  It also has no ground.

 

So as an after thought I looked up house fires due to wiring faults.  It turns out that something like 20% of all house fires and something like 70,000 fires in the US are due to faulty wiring.   Even if there was no other reason to , having your house inspected and new sockets installed every 10 years or so might not be a bad idea.

[Kisai]

13 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

That wouldn't happen due to market forces.  However the argument still remains, one type of connector is mandated, therefor no other connectors are developed for that specific usage.    We are basically stuck with the plug and socket we have until a major change occurs in the industry (in which case one will phase out while the other phases in).

Ah, but the argument being made with USB-C is the same.

 

Let's go back to the time of the refrigerator. 1913 (the company that became Frigidaire,) How many people had AC power at that time? Nobody. It was designed to plug into a then-new edison-base lightbulb socket. Lightbulbs were not standardized then, and neither were AC outlets.

 

So yes, even back then you would be re-wiring your house every time you wanted to add a light bulb or a fridge, or whatever else new came out like radios.

 

 

excerpt from "Refrigeration: A History", page 96.

 

The Radiola 30, also used a Edison base lightbulb socket.

https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/rca_30.html

 

Consider the "lightbulb" argument here as what we had before the USB agreement. If you wanted to sell an appliance, and there are no standards, and you can't invent one, you just use what people have.

 

Today a lot of people have USB-A and USB-C devices and chargers, 12 years ago that was a lot of proprietary, unlabeled DC power bricks where even the polarity might be different between devices using the same barrel connectors.

 

[mr moose]

24 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Ah, but the argument being made with USB-C is the same.

 

Let's go back to the time of the refrigerator. 1913 (the company that became Frigidaire,) How many people had AC power at that time? Nobody. It was designed to plug into a then-new edison-base lightbulb socket. Lightbulbs were not standardized then, and neither were AC outlets.

 

So yes, even back then you would be re-wiring your house every time you wanted to add a light bulb or a fridge, or whatever else new came out like radios.

 

 

excerpt from "Refrigeration: A History", page 96.

 

The Radiola 30, also used a Edison base lightbulb socket.

https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/rca_30.html

 

Consider the "lightbulb" argument here as what we had before the USB agreement. If you wanted to sell an appliance, and there are no standards, and you can't invent one, you just use what people have.

 

Today a lot of people have USB-A and USB-C devices and chargers, 12 years ago that was a lot of proprietary, unlabeled DC power bricks where even the polarity might be different between devices using the same barrel connectors.

 

Now you are conflating arguments.  Yes there were no standards, all industries come from a place of no standards. Industries fought and pushed for better devices until something was developed that was good enough to become the standard.  The choice between AC and DC was not one of mandate but ended up being chosen on the merits of each.  The sheer nature of AC made it easier to distribute thus cheaper thus the standard.  Imagine if Edison managed to get the government to mandate DC on health and safety reasons (quite possible given how much more dangerous AC is).     As I pointed out right back at the start of this thread, even throughout history things have become standard that were not the best simply due to being the cheapest or easiest at the time (look up beta/VHS),   But there is a difference between mandating something that is necessary for safety like mains connections and something that is not (like the connector on a phone).   If they can show evidence that forcing all device to use a single connector will have a larger impact on the environment than forcing manufacturers to support their products with replacement parts and support for longer periods then by all means, mandate away.  I challenge both the justification and any one who thinks this is black and white with no consequences.

 

Now to address the last sentence,  yes 12 years ago there were many different connectors on the market,  now there are 3 (lightning, USB C and MIcro USB).   No one is going to make a new one, lets say they mandate one connector type for every phone, now there is only one connector that all the manufacturers are making.  Where is the next connector going to be developed?  how will we know if there isn't something better and we are locked to whatever they choose.  How will it even cut down on e-waste?  Unless that connector is the only connector that will ever be used again and some sort of quality standard is mandated along with it then e-waste likely won't change.  One dodgy cord will get bought and thrown out after another.  Just raising you power point analogy, I see hundreds of power cords end up in e-waste all of them IEC standard, meaning they can be used on anything from a microwave, to a computer or kettle.  Yet every new appliance comes with a cord and the old cord gets thrown out with the appliance.   Mandating a standard has not had the desired effect in that field, there is no reason it will with phones either.

 

EDIT: TL:DR you can't use examples of product development and innovation from times when there were no standards to argue mandating standards won't hinder said product development.

 

  

[Bombastinator]

18 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Ah, but the argument being made with USB-C is the same.

 

Let's go back to the time of the refrigerator. 1913 (the company that became Frigidaire,) How many people had AC power at that time? Nobody. It was designed to plug into a then-new edison-base lightbulb socket. Lightbulbs were not standardized then, and neither were AC outlets.

 

So yes, even back then you would be re-wiring your house every time you wanted to add a light bulb or a fridge, or whatever else new came out like radios.

 

 

excerpt from "Refrigeration: A History", page 96.

 

The Radiola 30, also used a Edison base lightbulb socket.

https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/rca_30.html

 

Consider the "lightbulb" argument here as what we had before the USB agreement. If you wanted to sell an appliance, and there are no standards, and you can't invent one, you just use what people have.

 

Today a lot of people have USB-A and USB-C devices and chargers, 12 years ago that was a lot of proprietary, unlabeled DC power bricks where even the polarity might be different between devices using the same barrel connectors.

 

Standards have their place.  The issue is mandate.  The prevention of new systems and the forced removal of old ones. A point: those Edison sockets are still around.  In almost every home.  You used to be able to buy adaptors than fit in them and turned them into electrical outlets.  Those adaptors are illegal now, but it wasn’t modernization that did it.  It was safety.  Those things tended to get overloaded by people attaching too many things to them and starting house fires.  The latest home electric innovation I ran into is a thing called a spark fault interuptor.  Even more sensitive than a GFI.  Has big problems, and they’re really really expensive.   They’re mandated because just one person didn’t clean behind their bed for 50 years and an inadequately insulated outlet pulled in enough dust (negative pressure will eat your machine eventually) to pack the outlet completely with lint.  Started a fire.  

[Bombastinator]

34 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

So as an after thought I looked up house fires due to wiring faults.  It turns out that something like 20% of all house fires and something like 70,000 fires in the US are due to faulty wiring.   Even if there was no other reason to , having your house inspected and new sockets installed every 10 years or so might not be a bad idea.

My house is inspected yearly.  To get rid of the old wiring I have to tear out every interior wall.  There was a time I could have done it.  I really should have.

[RejZoR]

20 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

My house is inspected yearly.  To get rid of the old wiring I have to tear out every interior wall.  There was a time I could have done it.  I really should have.

There's also this difference in building houses. Basically all houses in US seem to have wooden structure with some plywood or drywall slammed on it and stuffed with insulation in between. Anything goes wrong and shit will burn like it's Christmas. Where in Europe, most houses are built with bricks and wiring is integrated into bricks. Bricks don't burn well... Things really have to go super wrong for houses to start burning due to wiring.

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

There's also this difference in building houses. Basically all houses in US seem to have wooden structure with some plywood or drywall slammed on it and stuffed with insulation in between. Anything goes wrong and shit will burn like it's Christmas. Where in Europe, most houses are built with bricks and wiring is integrated into bricks. Bricks don't burn well... Things really have to go super wrong for houses to start burning due to wiring.

Heh. It’s a cost thing. Also brick is terrible for earthquakes. There are rules about insulation in the US that don’t exist in Europe.  I understand they still use wool there.  The most common insulation in the US is fiberglass.  Glass burns as poorly as brick does.  Also that drywall? It’s called “Sheetrock” for a reason.  The stuff is made of gypsum.  It’s amazingly fire resistant.

[Kisai]

7 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Heh. It’s a cost thing. Also brick is terrible for earthquakes. There are rules about insulation in the US that don’t exist in Europe.  I understand they still use wool there.  The most common insulation in the US is fiberglass.  Glass burns as poorly as brick does.  Also that drywall? It’s called “Sheetrock” for a reason.  The stuff is made of gypsum.  It’s amazingly fire resistant.

Yes and No. The paper that is used with sheetrock is combustible and thus one of the reasons why fires aren't contained to electrical outlets, the paper ignites.

 

Also all dust is combustible.

[Sakkura]

16 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Heh. It’s a cost thing. Also brick is terrible for earthquakes. There are rules about insulation in the US that don’t exist in Europe.  I understand they still use wool there.  The most common insulation in the US is fiberglass.  Glass burns as poorly as brick does.  Also that drywall? It’s called “Sheetrock” for a reason.  The stuff is made of gypsum.  It’s amazingly fire resistant.

The kinds of "wool" used for insulation in Europe are rock wool (AKA mineral wool) and glass wool (AKA... fiberglass). Neither burn.

 

As for regulation, the US still allows asbestos to a degree unheard of in Europe.

[RejZoR]

27 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Heh. It’s a cost thing. Also brick is terrible for earthquakes. There are rules about insulation in the US that don’t exist in Europe.  I understand they still use wool there.  The most common insulation in the US is fiberglass.  Glass burns as poorly as brick does.  Also that drywall? It’s called “Sheetrock” for a reason.  The stuff is made of gypsum.  It’s amazingly fire resistant.

What good is fire resistant panels when your structural frame made of wood burns inside the wall until nothing supports anything and it all collapses. LOL? Also where did you heard wool is used for insulation? I can remember like 20 years ago we used combo panels which is styrofoam and some sort of woven fiber on both sides. These days they use similar thing, just way thicker.

[mr moose]

So now we are debating the virtues of house materials.  The reality is many parts of the EU build from masonry while the US builds in timbre and Aus has both,  is down to economics and resources.   At any rate, none of that has to do with electrical standards much less the impact of phone connector mandates.

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

Would you seriously enjoy having to rewire your home every 5 years when manufacturers decide to release a new appliance?

A change in connector would not require you to rewire the house, unless the mains voltage spec changes (which is highly unlikely) all that is required is to change the socket and you can do that on a as needs basis. A change in socket and plug is very cheap easy and quick thing to do.

 

Like has been mentioned Industry Standards and Regulations are different things. You can choose to adopt an Industry Standard i.e. USB-C where as you must comply to a Regulation. Company A can choose to adopt USB-C and Company B can choose to adopt USB Type-A however both must use the Regulated power connector of relevant countries. At any time Company A or B can decide to change which standard they wish but can never change the mains power standard.

 

A company could develop a much safer mains power socket and plug however Regulation would need to be updated to allow it and that would entail huge amounts of work convincing and proving to the government that it is indeed better and safer, because this is a life risk device. Even this extremely minor change took decades to be allowed, plastic/ribber guard over Phase and Neutral pins at the end just in case some rear event happens some how that shorts or a person comes in to contact with (goodness knows how).

vs

Both are legal.

 

On the other hand if you only regulate commonality not a specific connector then any company can if they wish develop a new standard but instead of having to convince a government you have to convince the market and your competitors to adopt it, which may fail resulting in you not being allowed to use it.

 

Even with subtle differences to specific regulation results can be very similar.

 

1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

What good is fire resistant panels when your structural frame made of wood burns inside the wall until nothing supports anything and it all collapses

It is difficult for fire to actually get in to the walls, that is the point of the insulation and cladding. Also the treated timber doesn't actually burn all that well, house fires that compromise building structure come about from the intense heat of the contents burning inside of it that will get super heated and burn/melt metals and even then it is very uncommon for a timber frame building to collapse even partly. The ones that do are older building not up to current building codes.

 

As for brick construction fires also render those buildings structurally unsafe. A building still standing doesn't actually mean it's not been compromised and still safe.

Fire inside the building caused the walls to collapse and the others still intact are likely damaged and need repair.

 

A house still standing is one where firefighters got there quickly to put out the fire.

 

Brick construction is pretty well accepted bad idea in my country, we have thousands of earthquakes each year and each one can cause unseen damage until catastrophic failure.

 

1931 Hawke's Bay earthquake, mag 7.8

Entire city near as much wiped out

 

2011 Christchurch earthquake, mag 6.3 aftershock from mag 7.1 main.

Almost all structure damage is confined to brick buildings

 

Things we have to consider that other countries do not, we even spent billions strengthening buildings before that quake and large damage still happened. Brick is fundamentally a bad idea here or really anywhere on the Ring of Fire.

[TechyBen]

58 minutes ago, mr moose said:

So now we are debating the virtues of house materials.  The reality is many parts of the EU build from masonry while the US builds in timbre and Aus has both,  is down to economics and resources.   At any rate, none of that has to do with electrical standards much less the impact of phone connector mandates.

"But it will stifle innovation!!!" XD

Nah. It won't. It will make things simpler. Many many many late markets require some sort of consistency (fuel for cars, batteries, etc). Sometimes it's natural (batteries), sometimes it's not (electric supply). Rarely does it stifel innovation (batteries have progressed, even though keeping similar/same form factor/voltage, and bulbs have progressed MANY times, even though keeping the same form factor/voltage, with the exception of LED integrated/external drivers, but those still have options!).

 

What is contested is *how* to set a common connector/standard. A good standard is great, a bad one horrific. You could even do "opt in" types. Like opting in to USB, and a logo/incentive/advertising for it (as with "HD" or "HDR" etc). Or a complete force (as with electrical outlets).

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

"But it will stifle innovation!!!" XD

Nah. It won't. It will make things simpler. Many many many late markets require some sort of consistency (fuel for cars, batteries, etc). Sometimes it's natural (batteries), sometimes it's not (electric supply). Rarely does it stifel innovation (batteries have progressed, even though keeping similar/same form factor/voltage, and bulbs have progressed MANY times, even though keeping the same form factor/voltage, with the exception of LED integrated/external drivers, but those still have options!).

You're making the same mistake the others are, you are trying to take examples from a free market where that market dictated the surviving standard and trying to apply it to government regulation.  How many of those examples would be the same if the government mandated only one of each? how many would have been developed further in the absence of a legal market?

[sof006]

Pretty sure Apple already has plans to move their devices to type C in the future anyway. Pointless of the EU to enforce this.

[TechyBen]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

You're making the same mistake the others are, you are trying to take examples from a free market where that market dictated the surviving standard and trying to apply it to government regulation.  How many of those examples would be the same if the government mandated only one of each? how many would have been developed further in the absence of a legal market?

And you make the mistake that the government is somehow magically different from competitors in the market. They are people to, with rules and requirements, laws and public responsibility too. Corporations have money to elevate themselves above the restrictions natural laws/limitations/corporation/competitivity apply to them, and governments have laws/politics etc that can elevate them above natural laws and limits. Or both can be regulated by supply/demand and consumer/public opinion. (That is, you seem to think that at no point in time do corporations have ruling power similar to governments, or that in no point in time do governments have competition as corporations do.)

 

The government in this case can be part of the discussion board, or part of the problem. Equating "thing X is a problem" instead of "thing X can help or make worse the problem" seems to be the error here. It's practically the fanboyism (for or against a group) you seem to argue against so much.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

Mains plugs are mandated for very good safety reasons.  Besides that your example actually proves that innovation stops when the plug is mandated not the other way around.  Many argue the UK plug is safer than the Aus plug, however we will never change because the aus plug is mandated and everywhere,  thus preventing a better connector from being developed/implemented.

The history of electricity and standards in the UK is quite a mess.Back in the day the only houses with electricity were country manors. They were simple DC systems consisting of a load of cells in the attics mainly used to power buzzers so one could summon ones servants. They did cause fires quite often and amazingly dried up examples can still be found in these houses attics today.

 

As time moved on many companies got in on the electricity business and by 1921 there were over 480 power suppliers most of which had different generating voltages and frequencies both at source and consumer. Worse still each had their own choice of household outlet. It was all a bit of a mess and something had to be done. By 1926 an act was passed to promote a single standard and gradually both on generation and consumer ends things slowly fell into place as far as voltage and frequency were involved. However plug sockets remained a mess. Then the second world war arrived and much of the infrastructure was destroyed. So in 1942 it was decided we needed to do something. So with a shortage of copper post war the ring main was conceived as well as the three pin plug and socket we have today. Using a ring main meant thinner wire could be used so less copper, but it bought many other benefits giving us an excellent system we have today. In 1947 the 500 or so companies generating and distributing electricity were bought under state control and divided into just 12 regions. This eventually lead to a national grid offering redundancy that many nations could only dream of. All seemed to be going well and legislation did a great job.

 

As time moved on we ended up with a mains plug that is one of the best in the world, fused in the plug with many safety features built into the plug and the wall outlet. Everything seemed tickety boo. However legislation all with good intention increased. We have a requirement for all devices to be supplied with a moulded plug, for safety reasons. Problem is that has lead to a huge waste problem as through the EU there are a number of different mains plugs, so to save time manufacturers packaged all types in the box. As most IT companies will tell you, they have skip loads of unused cables dumped every year. In the home people have forgotten how to change a fuse or wire a plug, so should a plug get damaged quite often devices simply get chucked in the bin, all for the cost of a £1 plug and two minutes effort. It really has come to that. Then we have the design of the plug itself. When you stick to the design it is excellent with the main drawbacks being size and the fact it really hurts when you tread on one, and the always land pins up. With the invention of online shopping the regulations can easily be circumvented. We have some really unsafe plugs entering the home. The cables are often aluminium instead of copper and have very poor fire ratings. The live and neutral pins should be insulated half way but the earth pin left bare, but the crap arriving on our shored often has the earth pin half insulated too causing more issues. The size and shape is mandated in the standard but this is often ignored on the imported crap where they try and use as little material as possible, so much so that it is easy to touch live pins when inserting or removing the plug from the wall. We also see many plugs having no fuse in the design, and wall sockets with no shutter to stop little johnny shoving a spoon in and killing themselves. 

 

Worse still more regulation has arrived concerning wiring and who can do it. Now a part P certificate is required for a lot of work, as well as PAT testing for devices in the workplace. Again, good intention but in practice this has de-skilled a lot of electricians. You can do a part P course in a few days and a PAT test course in a couple of hours. Big business has grow up simply around certification. A marketing company, not government run, called National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting or NICEIC has with the help of insurance companies made itself a position in the game, It has invented certificates, calibration requirements and pushed it all on H&S people in big companies who believe it is all needed. A big blooming mess.

 

Innovation has also stalled due to this legislation throughout the EU. Houses are built to strict wiring standards but increasingly those standards are out of date. We now have ceilings filled with transformers to power low voltage lighting, light bulbs with capacitive droppers or little switch mode psu's built in wasting electricity. Most plug sockets in the home are populated with wall warts all generating heat (sometimes dangerously too) popping out 5-19vdc.The regulations don't allow a low voltage supply to be run during the build. A market has sprung up slapping often unsafe electronics behind the walls giving us USB sockets along with the mains, and you will be amazed just how poorly designed and made some of these are.

 

So we have ended up with numerous problems. Where legislation once worked brilliantly, technology has move on too fast for that legislation to keep up, and it is falling further behind by the day. I fear the same would happen if USB-C was made the standard required for all devices, and that actually integrates with standards in the home. If homes began to be built with USB-C ports as well as low voltage circuits for lighting we could end up going through the same cycle again and stunting innovation.

 

Sorry, got carried away there.

[Bombastinator]

9 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

The history of electricity and standards in the UK is quite a mess.Back in the day the only houses with electricity were country manors. They were simple DC systems consisting of a load of cells in the attics mainly used to power buzzers so one could summon ones servants. They did cause fires quite often and amazingly dried up examples can still be found in these houses attics today.

 

As time moved on many companies got in on the electricity business and by 1921 there were over 480 power suppliers most of which had different generating voltages and frequencies both at source and consumer. Worse still each had their own choice of household outlet. It was all a bit of a mess and something had to be done. By 1926 an act was passed to promote a single standard and gradually both on generation and consumer ends things slowly fell into place as far as voltage and frequency were involved. However plug sockets remained a mess. Then the second world war arrived and much of the infrastructure was destroyed. So in 1942 it was decided we needed to do something. So with a shortage of copper post war the ring main was conceived as well as the three pin plug and socket we have today. Using a ring main meant thinner wire could be used so less copper, but it bought many other benefits giving us an excellent system we have today. In 1947 the 500 or so companies generating and distributing electricity were bought under state control and divided into just 12 regions. This eventually lead to a national grid offering redundancy that many nations could only dream of. All seemed to be going well and legislation did a great job.

 

As time moved on we ended up with a mains plug that is one of the best in the world, fused in the plug with many safety features built into the plug and the wall outlet. Everything seemed tickety boo. However legislation all with good intention increased. We have a requirement for all devices to be supplied with a moulded plug, for safety reasons. Problem is that has lead to a huge waste problem as through the EU there are a number of different mains plugs, so to save time manufacturers packaged all types in the box. As most IT companies will tell you, they have skip loads of unused cables dumped every year. In the home people have forgotten how to change a fuse or wire a plug, so should a plug get damaged quite often devices simply get chucked in the bin, all for the cost of a £1 plug and two minutes effort. It really has come to that. Then we have the design of the plug itself. When you stick to the design it is excellent with the main drawbacks being size and the fact it really hurts when you tread on one, and the always land pins up. With the invention of online shopping the regulations can easily be circumvented. We have some really unsafe plugs entering the home. The cables are often aluminium instead of copper and have very poor fire ratings. The live and neutral pins should be insulated half way but the earth pin left bare, but the crap arriving on our shored often has the earth pin half insulated too causing more issues. The size and shape is mandated in the standard but this is often ignored on the imported crap where they try and use as little material as possible, so much so that it is easy to touch live pins when inserting or removing the plug from the wall. We also see many plugs having no fuse in the design, and wall sockets with no shutter to stop little johnny shoving a spoon in and killing themselves. 

 

Worse still more regulation has arrived concerning wiring and who can do it. Now a part P certificate is required for a lot of work, as well as PAT testing for devices in the workplace. Again, good intention but in practice this has de-skilled a lot of electricians. You can do a part P course in a few days and a PAT test course in a couple of hours. Big business has grow up simply around certification. A marketing company, not government run, called National Inspection Council for Electrical Installation Contracting or NICEIC has with the help of insurance companies made itself a position in the game, It has invented certificates, calibration requirements and pushed it all on H&S people in big companies who believe it is all needed. A big blooming mess.

 

Innovation has also stalled due to this legislation throughout the EU. Houses are built to strict wiring standards but increasingly those standards are out of date. We now have ceilings filled with transformers to power low voltage lighting, light bulbs with capacitive droppers or little switch mode psu's built in wasting electricity. Most plug sockets in the home are populated with wall warts all generating heat (sometimes dangerously too) popping out 5-19vdc.The regulations don't allow a low voltage supply to be run during the build. A market has sprung up slapping often unsafe electronics behind the walls giving us USB sockets along with the mains, and you will be amazed just how poorly designed and made some of these are.

 

So we have ended up with numerous problems. Where legislation once worked brilliantly, technology has move on too fast for that legislation to keep up, and it is falling further behind by the day. I fear the same would happen if USB-C was made the standard required for all devices, and that actually integrates with standards in the home. If homes began to be built with USB-C ports as well as low voltage circuits for lighting we could end up going through the same cycle again and stunting innovation.

 

Sorry, got carried away there.

so A statement for good well thought out regulation but against bad or unenforced regulation.

[mr moose]

9 hours ago, TechyBen said:

And you make the mistake that the government is somehow magically different from competitors in the market.

It is different.  in this example vastly different.

 

9 hours ago, TechyBen said:

They are people to, with rules and requirements, laws and public responsibility too. Corporations have money to elevate themselves above the restrictions natural laws/limitations/corporation/competitivity apply to them, and governments have laws/politics etc that can elevate them above natural laws and limits. Or both can be regulated by supply/demand and consumer/public opinion. (That is, you seem to think that at no point in time do corporations have ruling power similar to governments, or that in no point in time do governments have competition as corporations do.)

 

The government in this case can be part of the discussion board, or part of the problem. Equating "thing X is a problem" instead of "thing X can help or make worse the problem" seems to be the error here. It's practically the fanboyism (for or against a group) you seem to argue against so much.

Or the government could stick to regulating only what they need to.    I implore you to read over the last several pages before you continue, as you are starting to raise arguments that have already been addressed.

 

 

[Bombastinator]

14 hours ago, sof006 said:

Pretty sure Apple already has plans to move their devices to type C in the future anyway. Pointless of the EU to enforce this.

Which makes me wonder why they are.  Something I’m not seeing.