The end of lightning is nigh, possibly.

[Curious Pineapple]

Is this going to legislate just the connector and pinout, or the charging protocol too? I can't see Apple bending over and taking it without finding some loophole to make their hardware incompatable.

 

For example, their own charge handshake protocol. Without it the charger will only output 500mA at 5v, and the phone will only draw 500mA at 5v. They've complied with reuirements and we're all in the same situation.

 

The EU loves to legislate but doesn't seem to consider all the effects.

[RejZoR]

1 hour ago, kokakolia said:

To be fair, the only problem is Apple. Every other company on the planet is adopting USB C with open arms. 

Yeah, because they don't (and didn't) have anything better. Apple did have Lightning (2012) before USB-C (2014) was a thing. And it instantly became a thing among Apple devices. USB-C got better adoption like 2-3 years ago and really taking off maybe like 1 year ago. Lightning was in mass usage among Apple devices since day 1. But ppl will refuse to give that credit to Apple coz it's Apple and they need to be pissed on constantly otherwise you're an Apple fanboy.

[poochyena]

12 hours ago, mr moose said:

Again that's your opinion, not an objective fact.

then tell me how its better

 

12 hours ago, mr moose said:

Can't get more sales from creating a better connector if they aren't allowed to sell products with that connector. 

They are. USB has changed many times over the years. idk where the idea is coming from that standards aren't allowed ti evolve over time.

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, poochyena said:

then tell me how its better

 

They are. USB has changed many times over the years. idk where the idea is coming from that standards aren't allowed ti evolve over time.

 

That was in a period when there was no regulation. Adding restrictions could change that.

[Kilrah]

10 hours ago, Phill104 said:

What happened in 2009 is quite different to the current proposal. It was an agreement to develop, not regulation on a current standard

Maybe on paper, but in essence it was the same as now. Most companies were already using microUSB at that point so the solution was already developed, and it essentially ended up regulating the current standard.

It has not prevented the appearance of USB-C when an evolution was necessary. It did not prevent things with added functionality like MHL either since they were compatible with standard microUSB for the base functionality.

When a change is needed in the future manufacturers just need to agree on a single solution again like they've already done twice. Only difference there might be is that Apple wouldn't be allowed an exception anymore, which is good for everyone.

[Guest]

I thought this already happened, I think European iPhones do, or used to, come with a lighting to micro-USB adapter for this purpose. 

[Commodus]

5 minutes ago, RorzNZ said:

I thought this already happened, I think European iPhones do, or used to, come with a lighting to micro-USB adapter for this purpose. 

The key here is that the EU would effectively dictate the port choice, not just the requirement for an adapter in the box.  There's a concern regulators may be overreaching and effectively dictating the pace of technological progress (or lack thereof).

[Kilrah]

14 minutes ago, Commodus said:

The key here is that the EU would effectively dictate the port choice

Not at all, they never said it had to be USB-C, it says "everyone has to agree on a single connector", whatever it is. Obviously it'll be USB-C at this point in time, but whenever the industry decides they need to change to another one they can do so, it just has to be the same for everyone again.

 

Quote

But members of the European Parliament urged the European Commission on Monday to force tech giants to adopt a single universal charging method.

 

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Commodus said:

The key here is that the EU would effectively dictate the port choice, not just the requirement for an adapter in the box.  There's a concern regulators may be overreaching and effectively dictating the pace of technological progress (or lack thereof).

Thats a differing thing to say because Lightning is superior to USB-C and in other aspects USB-C is superior to Lightning. IMO wireless with no port would just be better. (Pretty much all services now that need a port can be done wirelessly). 

[Commodus]

3 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

Not at all, they never said it had to be USB-C, it says "everyone has to agree on a single connector". Whatever it is. Obviously it'll be USB-C at this point in time, but whenever the industry decides they need to change to another one they can do so, it just has to be the same for everyone again.

So... what I said remains completely true.

 

I didn't specify USB-C -- I said that it would dictate port choice.  Phone makers wouldn't be allowed to diverge on whatever succeeds USB-C, even if they have something that's clearly superior.

[Kilrah]

If they have something that's superior then it should be easy to get the others to agree that it is and choose it as successor.

Precisely it forces them to talk and cooperate, and work together so that the next solution incorporates everyone's good ideas.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

If they have something that's superior then it should be easy to get the others to agree that it is and use it.

And that would depend on how the legislation was written. It could be very hard to adopt change even if something better came along. It would also have to be very carefully worded as to what devices are included and why. Would for instance an Apple Watch with a SIM card be considered a phone? It can make phone calls without an iPhone present so yes, it does. Would there be room for a USB-C port? I doubt it, and it really would make a mess of the device. So should the EU legislate  it must be done with the utmost of care.

[ARikozuM]

4 minutes ago, Commodus said:

So... what I said remains completely true.

 

I didn't specify USB-C -- I said that it would dictate port choice.  Phone makers wouldn't be allowed to diverge on whatever succeeds USB-C, even if they have something that's clearly superior.

That's a contradiction. If the point of the legislation or agreement is that they must agree on a standard, then it holds that they can succeed the current connector with a new one simply by coming to an agreement with each other once again. 

 

This would simply leave any e-waste at the doorsteps of the manufacturers rather than the public as they would put their funds into the same system with their own shared research rather than keeping connectors that may not have a widespread adoption or lifespan. 

[Bombastinator]

It sounds like people aren’t clear on exactly what is going to be possibly regulated.  A “charging standard” requirement could be for example pushing wireless charging and leaving actual ports alone.  Not sure what this thing even wants to do now.

[poochyena]

2 hours ago, Phill104 said:

That was in a period when there was no regulation. Adding restrictions could change that.

This has been regulated for over a decade, and there have been multiple changes to usb/charging cables https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

[Thaldor]

This has been coming a looooong time and it's good that EU finally puts the man pants on and stops listening Apples lobbying for the loophole they have been using these 11 years.

 

"It will hinder the development", just in what tin can have you been living? Like didn't you notice how everybody else than apple have changed from proprietary connectors to microUSB and from there to USB-C and all of that since EU made manufacturers to sit together and come up with one charging port for mobile devices (exceot Apple who have burned around million dollars yearly to lobby for their adapter loophole).

 

And yeah, I put this 100% on Apple because once again they are so immensly retarded company that they cannot even do the one very basic human thing called communication and negotiate with other companies to meet common goals. Like how hard can it be to communicate and negotiate like others surely did in the first place when microUSB was chosen and probably now the second time when USB-C has been chosen? Aparently for Apple that is the impossible task and I guess the reason is that they just want to be retarded snowflake eating sand at the playground.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, poochyena said:

This has been regulated for over a decade, and there have been multiple changes to usb/charging cables https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

It was more of a gentleman’s agreement than regulation. It did not fix a standard too, just that all should agree on one. This is different as it sets a standard.

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

This has been coming a looooong time and it's good that EU finally puts the man pants on and stops listening Apples lobbying for the loophole they have been using these 11 years.

 

"It will hinder the development", just in what tin can have you been living? Like didn't you notice how everybody else than apple have changed from proprietary connectors to microUSB and from there to USB-C and all of that since EU made manufacturers to sit together and come up with one charging port for mobile devices (exceot Apple who have burned around million dollars yearly to lobby for their adapter loophole).

 

And yeah, I put this 100% on Apple because once again they are so immensly retarded company that they cannot even do the one very basic human thing called communication and negotiate with other companies to meet common goals. Like how hard can it be to communicate and negotiate like others surely did in the first place when microUSB was chosen and probably now the second time when USB-C has been chosen? Aparently for Apple that is the impossible task and I guess the reason is that they just want to be retarded snowflake eating sand at the playground.

Re: angry diatribe.

Lots of unsupported accusations, insults, and descriptives there. “Man pants”, “in what tin can have you been living”, “immensely retarded”, “snowflake”- that one is actually a political dog whistle in the US.  

 

Re: factual problems
1. lightning is STILL better than  USBC.  USB4 which isn’t out yet, is the first point where parity might be reached.

 

2. Everybody doesn’t use USBC there is also microUSB2. More of those than USBC devices around actually.  Iirc Apple doesn’t use microUSB2 much of at all.  Also it’s an EU government law.  IF it is actually meant to discomfit Apple, which they seem to be denying, it is still EU government rather than Apple taking the action.

 

3. This may not be about data at all but rather charging.  This brings wireless charging into the mix.  This is a very confused thing.

 

4. the purported “loophole” is treated as if it’s already been discussed here.  As far as I can tell it hasn’t.  I kind of want to reply I kind with with “what are you babbling about?” That particular dog whistle always amused me.  It simultaneously insults the speaker and the content, while not actually saying it is wrong, merely implying it.  I see it used most commonly when the replier actually DOES know what has been said, but wants to keep the audience from knowing it.

 

in this case I actually don’t. This “loophole” is a mystery to me.

[Kisai]

3 hours ago, RorzNZ said:

Thats a differing thing to say because Lightning is superior to USB-C and in other aspects USB-C is superior to Lightning. IMO wireless with no port would just be better. (Pretty much all services now that need a port can be done wirelessly). 

Lightning isn't superior in any way to USB-C, and Wireless is incredibly inefficient. The only reason Lightning exists at all is because of Apple wanting to make the devices smaller, and the previous iPod connector had a lot of pins for things the iphone doesn't support like the firewire and analog outputs. That 30-pin dock connector also had the same problem of all other docking connectors to mobile devices, in that they break, easily. The lightning connector is incredibly bad at this too. I can press on the lightning connector slightly and it will disconnect, this is because the pins are only on one side of the receptacle inside the device. The fact that lightning only operates at USB 2.0 is another problem.

 

With USB-C, just look at the iPad Pro. It requires 18watts, that far exceeds the USB2.0 charging spec.

 

As for alternatives. The only alternative I would ask for is a magnetic USB connector, as the #1 reason break anything on a mobile device or tablet is because they pick it up with the cable still plugged in, or the device gets launched off a table with the cable plugged in. USB-C and Lightning are damaged when this happens. Unfortunately the the one bad decisions made with USB-C I find is that they should have made devices recess the receptacle end a little bit so the device could be magnetically held rather than friction held.

[Thaldor]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

-snip-

Start reading how Apple has been the one retarded snowflake with a lot of money (probably posted before). And yes, I call Apple as many degrading terms as I can because Apples history is full of this kind of shit and while often they have brought in some questionable improvement, mostly it's just because they want to be different for their own gain (also Apple is a corporation so I cannot attack their person even if I called them [whatever the worsest degrating and insulting term you can come up] because Apple isn't a person who can be insulted). And I say "questionable" because Apples choice have rarely become universaly adopted and usually when that has happened Apple has ASAP ditched that and made something else (see  firewire and displayport). It's kind of amazing Apple hasn't ditched thuderbolt yet because others have started to use it.

 

And like EU, I want to see some proof that lightning is anyway better than USB-C in phones and that USB-C is too thick for iPhones. And don't say durability, we all know that the connector isn't the shitiest part in iPhones charger. And remember lightning isn't thuderbolt, while they are compatible they are two completely different things (thunderbolt being completely Intel made connector, protocol and standard while lightning is Apple patented connector).

 

And as I said, since 2009 everybody else phased out their proprietary connectors for microUSB and now everybody else is phasing out microUSB for USB-C. Yes, main problems currently are fast-charging and wireless charging but trust me, if EU was to do the same for them as with wired charging now, most probably everybody else would adopt one standard and be fine with it until something newer comes and phase to it then while Apple would be screaming their mouth full of sand and refuse to play nice (mostly because their standards on these are their own and anybody using them would need to pay royalties to them, if they even agreed to license them out, just like with the lightning port).

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, poochyena said:

then tell me how its better

Better than what?   Holding every manufacture to a single connector standard can be argued as not being better,   Apple are  certainly already arguing that. Many people in this forum are arguing that.  

 

5 hours ago, poochyena said:

They are. USB has changed many times over the years. idk where the idea is coming from that standards aren't allowed ti evolve over time.

 

 

I don't understand how you keep missing the point here,  I've already pointed out that if they had of regulated back in 2009 for a mandated connector on all devices we way not even have USB C or Lightning.   If they regulate now what future connector will we not have because EU law says they can't?

 

See this post:

17 hours ago, mr moose said:

Again that's your opinion, not an objective fact.   If it were an objective fact this discussion wouldn't even be happening.

 

Can't get more sales from creating a better connector if they aren't allowed to sell products with that connector. 

 

 

True,  neither are new and we only know they are the best that are on offer,  it's only tried and tested because it was being developed before these mandates were floated.  Imagine if they  mandated all phones had to have the 5 pin mini USB,  Apple wouldn't have developed lighting because they would have been forced to use Mini USB instead.  If the EU mandated Mini USB before lightning or USB C were developed there is every chance wouldn't have lighting or USB C to compare them to.

 

 

 

Even though we have the USB consortium,  how many companies are going to invest in a new connector if they aren't allowed to use it?  Apple have already said this will stifle innovation, I am sure if the others are faced with similar issues in selling new connectors they won't develop them either. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Thaldor said:

 

 

"It will hinder the development", just in what tin can have you been living? Like didn't you notice how everybody else than apple have changed from proprietary connectors to microUSB and from there to USB-C and all of that since EU made manufacturers to sit together and come up with one charging port for mobile devices (exceot Apple who have burned around million dollars yearly to lobby for their adapter loophole).

 

 

 

There is a difference between a connector standard that is driven by market demand and a single connector mandate that is unavoidable.  And that is the argument that many are making, see above, if they mandate you can only use USB C then which company is going to invest R+D into a connector they can't get any serious ROI on?

[Bombastinator]

47 minutes ago, Thaldor said:

Start reading how Apple has been the one retarded snowflake with a lot of money (probably posted before). And yes, I call Apple as many degrading terms as I can because Apples history is full of this kind of shit and while often they have brought in some questionable improvement, mostly it's just because they want to be different for their own gain (also Apple is a corporation so I cannot attack their person even if I called them [whatever the worsest degrating and insulting term you can come up] because Apple isn't a person who can be insulted). And I say "questionable" because Apples choice have rarely become universaly adopted and usually when that has happened Apple has ASAP ditched that and made something else (see  firewire and displayport). It's kind of amazing Apple hasn't ditched thuderbolt yet because others have started to use it.

 

And like EU, I want to see some proof that lightning is anyway better than USB-C in phones and that USB-C is too thick for iPhones. And don't say durability, we all know that the connector isn't the shitiest part in iPhones charger. And remember lightning isn't thuderbolt, while they are compatible they are two completely different things (thunderbolt being completely Intel made connector, protocol and standard while lightning is Apple patented connector).

 

And as I said, since 2009 everybody else phased out their proprietary connectors for microUSB and now everybody else is phasing out microUSB for USB-C. Yes, main problems currently are fast-charging and wireless charging but trust me, if EU was to do the same for them as with wired charging now, most probably everybody else would adopt one standard and be fine with it until something newer comes and phase to it then while Apple would be screaming their mouth full of sand and refuse to play nice (mostly because their standards on these are their own and anybody using them would need to pay royalties to them, if they even agreed to license them out, just like with the lightning port).

1. The start reading thing that looks like a link isn’t one.  Are you suggesting I am incapable of reading in general?

2. More unsupported pejoratives *yawn* the rest of the first paragraph seems to be condensable to “I hate Apple!!” 
3. Paragraph 3 questions quality of lightning compared to USBC and accuses Apple of lying about claims of why they didn’t put USBC in their newest devices.  That’s fine.  Might even be true.  Might not.  People seem to disagree as to whether or not they prefer lightning over USBC.

4. Paragraph 4 makes claims about “everyone” and extols the reader to trust them, completely ignoring the issues pointed out in the previous comment.  I personally have seen nothing yet to engender any kind of trust at all.  Everything so far seems to be nothing but unsupported pejorative based opinion.

5. No mention of this “loophole” at all.

 

What I’m getting is you don’t like apple.  That’s fine.  There’s nothing actually here though.  Just a bunch of claims that don’t hold up.  The closest thing to an actual claim is that you don’t think that the lightning connector is as good as USBC.  This claim was made by others.  They provided support.  You didn’t.  Oh, and that you hate apple.  Ok.  Noted.  You pointed out that Apple is a corporation.  I as a rule am mistrusting of corporations.  All the other manufacturers are corporations too though.

Personally I’m sort of saddened by the no reference to the loophole thing.  I suspect that there is another reason for this proposed rule other than the claim for a desire to standardize. I just don’t know what it is.

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, Thaldor said:

And as I said, since 2009 everybody else phased out their proprietary connectors for microUSB and now everybody else is phasing out microUSB for USB-C. 

This before SmartPhones were a *thing* The iPhone came out in 2008, prior to that, every damn PDA/PocketPC/iPaq/Palm device used something similar to the 30-pin iPod connector from 2003.  And these connectors broke easily. The cell phones were more standardized within a brand back then, as each brand had one or two adapters plus devices that could connect to the internet via tethering had a dock connector. Except car kits. Good gawd the car kits were all proprietary nonsense back then. Not only could a car kit only work with one brand, it often only worked with one model.

 

Bluetooth solved the "car kit" problem. USB solved the charger brick end, and thus cars started coming with USB-A ports in a compartment somewhere (eg center console) instead of having to have the 30-pin dock "car kit"

 

Like if the EU wanted to really smack down on e-Waste, they should make the mandate part of the 5G adoption. 

 

eg

"Any non-automotive, stationary or mobile device that can connect to a 5G network must have a minimum of one USB-C receptacle for use with charging and data use". So that includes all mobile phones, tablets, business laptops (eg Dell Latitudes) and various IoT junk. Automotive devices need to a way to connect to the vehicle CANBUS, entertainment system, and dash cams, while the engine isn't running. So some kind of additional LiPo battery pack needs to be on this USB-C automotive bus so that devices connected can go into standby and not have to cold-start.

 

[kaiju_wars]

People are arguing that "this won't stifle innovation."
If every tech company has to agree on the exact same port, yes it will.  

So the EU passes this law.  Lets say magically Apple follows it, instead of doing some Apple tomfoolery.  
Okay, we all have USB-C.  But lets say, *insert tech company here, comes up with a new port standard, it's not necessarily USB, but it blows USB Type C out of the water.  

Well, a lot of companies are invested in USB, you really think they're going to be like, "lets switch the whole continent to this, for the betterment of everyone else, it is the better connector after all."
No, they won't.  They'll protect their money, and if their money is in USB, it's sticking to USB.  

 

Don't regulate the connector on the device itself.  

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, kaiju_wars said:

People are arguing that "this won't stifle innovation."
If every tech company has to agree on the exact same port, yes it will.  

So the EU passes this law.  Lets say magically Apple follows it, instead of doing some Apple tomfoolery.  
Okay, we all have USB-C.  But lets say, *insert tech company here, comes up with a new port standard, it's not necessarily USB, but it blows USB Type C out of the water.  

Well, a lot of companies are invested in USB, you really think they're going to be like, "lets switch the whole continent to this, for the betterment of everyone else, it is the better connector after all."
No, they won't.  They'll protect their money, and if their money is in USB, it's sticking to USB.  

 

Don't regulate the connector on the device itself.  

My suspicion is this will or won’t happen entirely based on something else, and that something else will have a much shorter term effect than the law.