Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
Phill104

The end of lightning is nigh, possibly.

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

I don’t think Apple will be the one most affected by this. USB4 basically is lightning. It’s going to be all the little devices like controllers and stuff that use microUSB2 for power.

What?  USB4 is an electrical standard, not a connector standard like Type C.


QUOTE ME IN A REPLY SO I CAN SEE THE NOTIFICATION!

When there is no danger of failure there is no pleasure in success.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I lived through it, in fact I still have many chargers and shit in my box'o'bits with weird ass connectors I'll never see again on anything.  However there is one other reason people will be against it,  and that is the free trade argument.   There is a fine line between considered regulation that betters society and oppressive control of private enterprise.

Oooh. Not just any control but “oppressive” control.  I have yet to see a single instance where standardization didn’t do more good than harm to the public.  Even when the standard chosen was exceptionally stupid.  This one isn’t.  The biggest problem I can see it having is too much data transfer ability in the near future, and people liking the standardization so freaking much that it’s going to be awhile before we see another and it’s got to be a lot better rather than just a little better.  I could care about “oppressing” corporations.   Corporations aren’t human.  Or even alive.  It will probably be good for them too in the long run.  They may experience short term profit slumps even with a long term advantage, which is all the CEOs care about so they’ll hate it.  Unless there is another reason.  I think it likely that there is another reason.


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Phill104 said:

 

In some ways I agree it could stifle innovation. Who chooses future connectors for instance? What if a brand come up with something far better, or decide technology has moved on far enough to ditch any connector. They would need to go through quite an extensive procedure to sell the items in the EU.

It makes sense in an iPad but does it in all devices?

 

So they are citing environmental reasons. I agree it was silly at one point, I could probably find a shed load of wall warts in cupboards etc. Not sure regulation is the way though.

 

I think regulation in this regard should be part of standardization on exactly one or one-and-a-half standards. We do need to tread lightly though, because if you make the regulation too rigid, then all you've done is favored VHS over Blueray.

 

This is how I'd "solve" the charger problem. All devices should use USB-C (not USB-A) going forward if they pull more than 2.5watts, and explicitly use the USB PD mode. Any device that can charge another device should have only a USB-C port for this purpose and have a labeled "power" icon. ?

 

If a device is "charge/power only" then the USB-C connector or cable should have the power icon and a NO-Data icon.

 

This is what I mean by one-and-a-half. Any USB-C device that the user has control over, should allow powering another USB-C device. USB-C PD (up to 100 watts or so) can power just about everything except high end laptops and large computer screens. USB-C devices that the user can not have control over (eg public charging access points) should instead have the "no data" icon on them and the device should not connect any data, and if the user is concerned that the device can not be trusted, they can also indicate to their device to "charge only" when connected, or use a cable that has only the charging pins connected.

 

For devices that are >100 watts, multiple USB-C connections should be provided in a standard "side-by-side" layout (see some high end laptops) so that a double USB-C cable can exist. Once you get to about 200 watts, you're into the $100+ dedicated power supply brick already.

 

Once there is a standard, then you stop needing power bricks because housing, hotels, and other places people gather can have these ports as standard equipment, and users don't end up having to worry about losing USB chargers when they travel. 

 

That still leaves one problem. The cable. A 100w USB-C PD cable is not a thin cable, so if someone forgets their cable and they use a non-PD capable cable, they're going to be kinda pissed that the USB-C charger doesn't work.

 

Wireless is not the answer.

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Samfisher said:

What?  USB4 is an electrical standard, not a connector standard like Type C.

?!!? My understanding is USB4 is USB3.2 with thunderbolt3 in it.  It can use usbC same as thinderbolt3 can.  Are you saying it would make all phones have to use typeB connectors?  I don’t think that’s how it works.  That would fall under the “exceptionally stupid” clause.  The impression I am getting is what it would do is force Apple to go with a standard and every single power only MicroUSB2 device like Xbox controllers and whatnot have to co with a USBC port.

 

Now if that is NOT what is going on it should be mentioned.  The assumption a lot of people are making here is that it is BOTH an electrical AND a data standard.  It also would apply to pure power systems so they would likely have to go with something else other than microUSB2 which while nice for consumers would suck hard for manufacturers


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

?!!? My understanding is USB4 is USB3.2 with thunderbolt3 in it.  It can use usbC same as thinderbolt3 can.  Are you saying it would make all phones have to use typeB connectors?  I don’t think that’s how it works.  That would fall under the “exceptionally stupid” clause.  The impression I am getting is what it would do is force Apple to go with a standard and every single power only MicroUSB2 device like Xbox controllers and whatnot have to co with a USBC port.

 

Now if that is NOT what is going on it should be mentioned.  The assumption a lot of people are making here is that it is BOTH an electrical AND a data standard.  It also would apply to pure power systems so they would likely have to go with something else other than microUSB2 which while nice for consumers would suck hard for manufacturers

Thunderbolt =/= lightning connector...This is solely about the connector.  The EU is mandating a universal connector for devices.


QUOTE ME IN A REPLY SO I CAN SEE THE NOTIFICATION!

When there is no danger of failure there is no pleasure in success.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, TVwazhere said:

This seems..... A bit overreaching. 

governments are nothing if but overreaching.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Samfisher said:

Thunderbolt =/= lightning connector...This is solely about the connector.  The EU is mandating a universal connector for devices.

Correct. It does basically the same thing as the proposed USB4 typeC connector though.  Apple might not be super happy but it wouldn’t be hard to deal with either.


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, CircleTech said:

governments are nothing is but overreaching.

This kind of statement generally only comes from places that have never experienced actual lack of government.  They exist.  They have names like “mogodeshu”. Anarchy is not peace or freedom.  It’s the opposite of both.


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, CircleTech said:

governments are nothing is but overreaching.

The EU reminds me of an HOA. Those fuckers are always over reaching. Ticketing and towing people on Public roads, which is illegal for them to do because those are maintained by the government, meaning only the police have a legal right to ticket or tow. But they dont seem to care. 

 

What would be funny is if Apple made an EU version of the iPhone, but just to be dicks, the EU version was a generation or two behind the rest of the world. So they are in compliance with the EU regulations, but are just being dickish with it. Thats what I would do and it would be legal because the EU cant control products sold in other parts of the world. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, poochyena said:

well, this betters society and doesn't oppress anyone... so......

in your opinion, yes it does. In the opinion of someone who prefers multiple options and to choose the best one, not so much.

 

33 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Oooh. Not just any control but “oppressive” control.  I have yet to see a single instance where standardization didn’t do more good than harm to the public.  Even when the standard chosen was exceptionally stupid.  This one isn’t.  The biggest problem I can see it having is too much data transfer ability in the near future, and people liking the standardization so freaking much that it’s going to be awhile before we see another and it’s got to be a lot better rather than just a little better.  I could care about “oppressing” corporations.   Corporations aren’t human.  Or even alive.  It will probably be good for them too in the long run.  They may experience short term profit slumps even with a long term advantage, which is all the CEOs care about so they’ll hate it.  Unless there is another reason.  I think it likely that there is another reason.

 

There are arguments for that, absolutely.  But there are also arguments that standardization has limited consumer choice to sub par products which is not a good thing.  I.E  It has been argued by many that beta video cassette was a better quality product, but standardization left consumer with no choice but VHS.    Whether companies should be allowed to choose between their own product and being forced to use a standard product though is still a debate that will continue for a very long time because we all have different opinions on the merits of each.   

 

The problem is people mistake their opinions on the matter as being the definitively the better option.   I have a personal preference that permits companies to use whatever design they want, live and die by their choices I say.  But also, as I said before, if their choices are leading to a demonstrable environmental issue then they should be coerced into better options. 

 

 

 

 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

The EU reminds me of an HOA. Those fuckers are always over reaching. Ticketing and towing people on Public roads, which is illegal for them to do because those are maintained by the government, meaning only the police have a legal right to ticket or tow. But they dont seem to care. 

 

What would be funny is if Apple made an EU version of the iPhone, but just to be dicks, the EU version was a generation or two behind the rest of the world. So they are in compliance with the EU regulations, but are just being dickish with it. Thats what I would do and it would be legal because the EU cant control products sold in other parts of the world. 

HOA as in Home OwnersAssociarion?  Rofl.  They may be owned by the government but they’re paid for by the homeowners.  Who live there.  There are gated communities of course where you wouldn’t be allowed to drive at all.  Would this be preferable to you?  It’s the other option.


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

in your opinion, yes it does. In the opinion of someone who prefers multiple options and to choose the best one, not so much.

 

 

There are arguments for that, absolutely.  But there are also arguments that standardization has limited consumer choice to sub par products which is not a good thing.  I.E  It has been argued by many that beta video cassette was a better quality product, but standardization left consumer with no choice but VHS.    Whether companies should be allowed to choose between their own product and being forced to use a standard product though is still a debate that will continue for a very long time because we all have different opinions on the merits of each.   

 

The problem is people mistake their opinions on the matter as being the definitively the better option.   I have a personal preference that permits companies to use whatever design they want, live and die by their choices I say.  But also, as I said before, if their choices are leading to a demonstrable environmental issue then they should be coerced into better options. 

 

 

 

 

The Betamax vhs thing was never a government standard.  They were both corporate standards.  One owned by Sony, and the other by another company who’s name I forget.  The customers chose VHS not the government.  They chose it because it held more video while being slightly cheaper.  Was it a stupid choice? Possibly.  It had absolutely zero to do with government overreach though.


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Bombastinator said:

They may be owned by the government but they’re paid for by the homeowners.

No they generally are not. Many times they are owned by greedy ass corporations. Local Governments like HOA's because then they dont have to offer services to that area. HOA's are in charge of maintaining some roads, they do snow removal and other things. The government saves money because they dont have to offer those services to those people. 

 

3 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

here are gated communities of course where y

Not all of them. Generally they could just be a neighborhood that decided to start something. Many are not gated, there are several around me, no gates, no armed gaurds. The only thing that true about most HOA's is they are ran by NAZIS wanabees. Id never live in one of those hell holes. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

The Betamax vhs thing was never a government standard.  They were both corporate standards.  One owned by Sony, and the other by another company who’s name I forget.  The customers chose VHS not the government.  They chose it because it held more video while being slightly cheaper.  Was it a stupid choice? Possibly.  It had absolutely zero to do with government overreach though.


 I never said it was a government mandated standard, I gave it as an example of a standard (regardless of how it came to be) that many people still argue resulted in consumers being left with only a sub par product option.

 

 

The point being that it is not a universal truth that standards are better, there are differing opinions, thus trying to claim those opinions as justification for government regulation in private enterprise is actually using opinions to diminish free market conditions.  

 

In my opinion any regulation of private enterprise needs to be justified with a demonstrable fact. 


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Are the roads owned by the government or by corporations?  Or do you mean the HOAs are owned by corporations?  That would be a potential problem.  An HOA should be owned by the homeowners.  If it isn’t some chicanery has taken place. A government wouldn’t save money because they wouldn’t be able to tax those people for those services.  Apparently the corporation does instead?  So by your description an HOA is at least in some instances actually a tiny corporate government.   That’s more than a little messed up.  Totally illegal where I live.
 

It may be that this is a state or national difference.  
 

In any case it’s irrelevant to USB.


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, mr moose said:


 I never said it was a government mandated standard, I gave it as an example of a standard (regardless of how it came to be) that many people still argue resulted in consumers being left with only a sub par product option.

 

 

The point being that it is not a universal truth that standards are better, there are differing opinions, thus trying to claim those opinions as justification for government regulation in private enterprise is actually using opinions to diminish free market conditions.  

 

In my opinion any regulation of private enterprise needs to be justified with a demonstrable fact. 

Which is what is apparently happening.  The justification is too weak to make it worth doing though which is why I think it’s likely something else as well.  Generally it’s to protect an Internet by screwing over another one.  Perhaps it’s Britian (because they’re about to not be in the EU) perhaps it’s China, perhaps it’s the US.  I have no idea.  I’m quite curious though.


Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mr moose said:

In the opinion of someone who prefers multiple options and to choose the best one, not so much.

why would someone prefer that?

Either way, they aren't hurt by the lack of choice, so its not oppressive

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Which is what is apparently happening.  

Is it though?  they already mandate USB on one end so you can use your charger over and over on any device. I would like to see the evidence the connector type is an e-waste problem  in it's own right.

 

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

The justification is too weak to make it worth doing though which is why I think it’s likely something else as well.  Generally it’s to protect an Internet by screwing over another one.  Perhaps it’s Britian (because they’re about to not be in the EU) perhaps it’s China, perhaps it’s the US.  I have no idea.  I’m quite curious though.

No idea,  I just wish politicians would stand on good evidence and not be afraid to make policy based on stuff that is important.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, poochyena said:

why would someone prefer that?

Because they are not you and have different opinions/experiences.\

 

2 minutes ago, poochyena said:

Either way, they aren't hurt by the lack of choice, so its not oppressive

That is a self contradictory sentence, lack of choice caused by government regulation by definition is oppression.

 

Quote

the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.

 

Removing any right to make or sell a product thus reducing the options a consumer has  is unjust in the eyes of many people.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, comander said:
Spoiler

 

Devices I have using USB-C:
  headphones

  laptop

  battery bank
  work phone

  several monitors (I believe this is technically thunderbolt)
  flash drive
  trackpad

  security key

 

Devices I have using Lightning:

  iPhone

 

 

Lightning needs to die. 

 

 

 

Devices I have using USB-C:
-

 

Devices I have using Lightning:

-

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Removing any right to make or sell a product thus reducing the options a consumer has  is unjust in the eyes of many people.

its not. it has its reasons and they are reasons that objectively improve society. So thus, its just. its like say outlawing murder is oppressive since it takes away your choice to kill.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

The EU reminds me of an HOA. Those fuckers are always over reaching. Ticketing and towing people on Public roads, which is illegal for them to do because those are maintained by the government, meaning only the police have a legal right to ticket or tow. But they dont seem to care. 

 

What would be funny is if Apple made an EU version of the iPhone, but just to be dicks, the EU version was a generation or two behind the rest of the world. So they are in compliance with the EU regulations, but are just being dickish with it. Thats what I would do and it would be legal because the EU cant control products sold in other parts of the world. 

 

You don't understand the purpose of a HOA (basically planned neighborhoods, aka gated communities) or Strata councils then. The purpose is not a level of government at the building/block level, but more like a PTA (Parent Teacher association) to ensure that things residents do neither disrupt other residents peaceful enjoyment of their own properties. So that means:

 

- No you can not cut a hole in your building/unit

- No you can not build an extension to your building

- No you can not build a fence between you and your neighbor

- No you can not park on the street. If you can't park in your garage then you can't have the vehicle parked here at all. (To dissuade RV camping.)

 

and so forth. If there is a HOA or a Strata involved, it's likely they own the last 100ft of roads, which happen to be the roads in front of your driveway, so they're not public roads, they're actually private roads with public access, and that's why you can't park on them. There's also the fire safety issues where some of these stupid gated communities have roads that are not wide enough for two vehicles to pass each other.

 

Anyway, they exist so that disputes are handled between neighbors and not taken to court unless things get to the level where law enforcement would need to be used. So for example, is someone operating their home or strata unit as a boarding house? Sorry, that's illegal, and if you don't cease immediately, the HOA/Strata council will move to have you sell your property and GTFO. It happens, but usually not very high profile.

 

 

What I expect to come from the EU directive is that all devices that can be powered over USB-C PD to have USB-C PD in addition to any power brick they would normally come with at first (Dell 2-in-1 laptops for example all use USB-C PD only now,) and devices that can already be powered with USB-A, to have USB-C connectors but not necessarily use PD, so they can be powered by smaller, less complicated chargers, and not required to be able to charge other devices. Ultimately what I expect is that most people will just buy some kind of power distributor to plug into the wall, which has it's own LiPo battery and then everything plugged into it's USB-C ports is simultaneously powered, rather than needing a dozen separate chargers.

 

Many people don't even realize there is a USB port on their cell phone charger, they leave the cable attached all the time.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, poochyena said:

its not. it has its reasons and they are reasons that objectively improve society. So thus, its just. its like say outlawing murder is oppressive since it takes away your choice to kill.

No, you have your opinions and they are not objective.  Your entire argument rests on you believing your opinions are best for everyone.


QuicK and DirtY. Read the CoC it's like a guide on how not to be moron.  Also I don't have an issue with the VS series.

Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

eh, convince motherboard and GPU manufacturers to add more than two type-c ports, and i'll consider ._.

 

heck, even Apple's current macbooks are all type-c

Link to post
Share on other sites

To me Apples concern has nothing to do with innovation and more to do with customer choice. As always its all about MONEY. If they must use Type C customers have far more choice in chargers and accessories.  Third parties no longer have to get the Made for iPhone certification. 

Edit: Apple knows that if you have lightning everything you less likely to switch to another manufacture for your phone. 

 

As for this standardization it will be good for the consumer. Can you imagine what a disaster it would be if governments didn't not regulate the plug type all houses must use. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×