Security updates for Windows 7 ostensibly end tomorrow, but also officially continue until 2023

[TechyBen]

14 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Apparently, you have never actually run a small business. First you don't know his circumstances. Second, most small businesses are running on a shoestring, barely hanging on, often because of competition from the big companies who can afford to run on smaller profit margins than a small business can, have access to bulk discounts on supplies, etc.

 

I did. And also I was honest with myself. I know why it was hard, and it was not because "windows PC too expensive". I never said those other things were not also problems, but priority wise, many people don't put a computer there, or understand how to budget (second hand PC, car/truck etc). Instead blowing cash on unnecessary and unneeded items/business expenses.

 

Quote

who can afford to run on smaller profit margins than a small business can

Then sadly, they are priced out the market. They can continue losing (economically) or admit defeat and change and hopefully win out in the long run (I still exist and am around, though I've got to employed work now, even though half the businesses I worked for had to close up their stores/downsize/go bankrupt, and we are talking national stores closing. not the mom and pop ones who instead did have to retire due to age).

 

When I worked for myself, I knew not to go up against the bulk discount prices. Not to go up against the low profit margins. I'd not go into food (as said, the bakers, butchers, green grocers have all closed here when the supermarket opened). But that's the point. If the businesses are struggling, it's not because "pc too expensive", it's (as you say, I agree with you, just commented from the other side of the argument) that the other business problems are bringing the firm down, not the expense of a PC.

 

It's a bit like if a carpenter said "I have to use a screwdriver for making holes, a chisel is too expensive". Something must be wrong there, and most circumstances is not that the price of chisels is being artificially inflated/scammed.

 

[Sauron]

12 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Both can be tossed in under car maintenance - I should have rather said car expenses in general. Whether you run a small business or a large business, you're likely not paying too much different (and insurance wise can vary wildly between location so difficult to compare).

While a large business would be paying roughly the same for car maintenance they'd have a lot more income to work with - even if at the end of they day they only make the same profit margin, that margin on a much larger scale would be a much larger sum.

[TechyBen]

57 minutes ago, Sauron said:

While a large business would be paying roughly the same for car maintenance they'd have a lot more income to work with - even if at the end of they day they only make the same profit margin, that margin on a much larger scale would be a much larger sum.

Swings and roundabouts. Small businesses have some advantages, some disadvantages. It varies. A small business though has smaller pool of tools/facilities/utilities, so less shared costs to bring overall overheads down (but some overheads saved if smaller offices/workforce etc).

 

As to Windows 7... I really need to find my spare SSD to install a temp Win10, before I (if ever) for an upgrade on this machine. I do want to go dual boot in the end with Linux (possibly all 3 ).

[SpikeSpiegel]

 

[Donut417]

On 1/19/2020 at 1:47 AM, Delicieuxz said:

I've had my Win 10 system bricked 3 times due to installing Microsoft's Windows 10 updates

Glad Im not the only one. I bring this type of issue up and people act like I dont know what Im talking about. Windows 10 updates are a crapshoot. 

[SpikeSpiegel]

Get Windows 7-based Support Until 2021! - Windows Embedded POSReady 7 (Overview & Demo)

 

The license key is $92.87

https://buy.advantech.com/Software/Microsoft-Windows-Embedded-Windows-POSReady/model-968TWPOS7X.htm

[Delicieuxz]

11 hours ago, CalintzJerevinan said:

[video]

 

8 hours ago, CalintzJerevinan said:

[video]

Get Windows 7-based Support Until 2021! - Windows Embedded POSReady 7 (Overview & Demo)

The license key is $92.87

https://buy.advantech.com/Software/Microsoft-Windows-Embedded-Windows-POSReady/model-968TWPOS7X.htm

 

Cool videos. I've added both of them to the OP.

[TrainFan475]

On 1/13/2020 at 6:59 PM, Delicieuxz said:

but I think I still wouldn't have an issue with continuing to run Windows 7 without security updates.

That's a good way to get hacked

[Brennan Price]

Honestly, Windows 7 was great when I still had a core 2 duo rig... This was maybe 6 or 7 years ago though... As soon as Windows 10 was released in 2015 however it didn't make sense at all to still be using Win 7 (well maybe not initially as Win 10 was still buggy af in the first year or so but you get where I'm coming from). Considering that mainstream support ended in 2015 for Win 7 as well there is no real plausible explanation to still be using Windows 7 as a home or business user. There has been plenty to indicate that it will no longer be supported... 5 years is a long time to be warned about this. 

 

I can understand why a Win 7 (or even XP and older) PC may still be used for machinery etc in a business but that's a different case/scenario... 

[jagdtigger]

28 minutes ago, TrainFan2020 said:

That's a good way to get hacked

If you behave like a jackass and click on anything....  As long as you know what you are doing its fine.

[Delicieuxz]

30 minutes ago, TrainFan2020 said:

That's a good way to get hacked

Naw. Don't buy into the fear-mongering propaganda.

 

Updating Windows is a good way to brick your system. To protect yourself against both damage from hacking and damage from system bricking, back up your files. That is the single most-important measure to protect your computer. If you have your files backed-up, the next step to protect a personal PC is to disable Windows Update so your system won't get bricked by updates.

 

You probably have at least a 100,000 more likely chance of having your system bricked by a bad Windows update than you a chance of having your personal PC hacked. And having a system brick is the more comprehensively damaging outcome. And to have your PC get hacked, probably either you click on or download sketchy things, or somebody is targeting you. And if a person who knows what they're doing is targeting you, then you're likely going to get hacked regardless.

[startrekdude]

13 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

You probably have at least a 100,000 more likely chance of having your system bricked by a bad Windows update than you a chance of having your personal PC hacked. And having a system brick is the more comprehensively damaging outcome.

I would consider it annoying in a home use situation but the data would still be there and you should have back ups. At the end of the day its an inconvenience but it just means you have to reinstall windows. I honestly wouldn't call it Bricking because you can just re install windows. Bricking is when your hardware is as good as a brick after something happens to it.

[Commodus]

56 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

Naw. Don't buy into the fear-mongering propaganda.

 

Updating Windows is a good way to brick your system. To protect yourself against both damage from hacking and damage from system bricking, back up your files. That is the single most-important measure to protect your computer. If you have your files backed-up, the next step to protect a personal PC is to disable Windows Update so your system won't get bricked by updates.

 

You probably have at least a 100,000 more likely chance of having your system bricked by a bad Windows update than you a chance of having your personal PC hacked. And having a system brick is the more comprehensively damaging outcome. And to have your PC get hacked, probably either you click on or download sketchy things, or somebody is targeting you. And if a person who knows what they're doing is targeting you, then you're likely going to get hacked regardless.

If Windows is such a horrible piece of crap that you can't trust OS updates... maybe you should stop using Windows PCs unless you have no choice.  Refusing to install updates is no way to go about things, no matter how much you think your other security measures cover those holes.

 

Besides, as I recall, some of the bigger malware campaigns of recent years (including WannaCry) took advantage of companies and people who hadn't upgraded to newer versions of Windows or installed security updates.

 

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, startrekdude said:

I would consider it annoying in a home use situation but the data would still be there and you should have back ups. At the end of the day its an inconvenience but it just means you have to reinstall windows. I honestly wouldn't call it Bricking because you can just re install windows. Bricking is when your hardware is as good as a brick after something happens to it.

Actually bricking refers to both. What you are talking about is a hard brick( pr HW brick). What Delicieuxz refers to is a soft brick. Plus bricking a windows install goes beyond an inconvenience with all the stuff you have to download and tweaks to apply so that junk becomes borderline tolerable.

 

3 minutes ago, Commodus said:

including WannaCry) took advantage of companies and people who hadn't upgraded to newer versions of Windows or installed security updates.

It was more about a bunch jackasses who actually exposed smb to the internet.... (I actually took a look and even XP is blocking incoming traffic by default.)

Edited January 21, 2020 by jagdtigger

[startrekdude]

3 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Actually bricking refers to both. What you are talking about is a hard brick( pr HW brick). What Delicieuxz refers to is a soft brick. Plus bricking a windows install goes beyond an inconvenience with all the stuff you have to download and tweaks to apply so that junk becomes borderline tolerable.

Fair, still I think it needs a different term for the software brick, and I apologize if I was mistaken I had assumed you could just reinstall windows.

[jagdtigger]

7 minutes ago, startrekdude said:

apologize if I was mistaken I had assumed you could just reinstall windows.

Yes you can, i wasnt trying to say you cant(this is what soft brick means, the device is inoperable but recovery is still possible). Just pointed out that reinstalling windows isnt as simple to cause some inconvenience. For most ppl its a pretty big annoyance actually.

 

/EDIT

(Pls keep in mind that i never had any windows tablet so IDK if its possible to recover them if the internal storage gets corrupted so even the recovery partition is lost along everything else.)

[Commodus]

6 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

It was more about a bunch jackasses who actually exposed smb to the internet.... (I actually took a look and even XP is blocking incoming traffic by default.)

It's still true that they wouldn't have been vulnerable to this particular attack if they'd been running newer versions of Windows.  Look at it like you would home security: making it obvious that you haven't been home for weeks doesn't excuse leaving the back door unlocked.  One fault doesn't excuse the other.

[startrekdude]

15 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Just pointed out that reinstalling windows isnt as simple to cause some inconvenience. For most ppl its a pretty big annoyance actually.

yea, your right I was looking at it from my point of view where its a bother but I can get everything up and running fairly easly it just takes time to reinstall things and most if not all of my data is on other drive or my server. So not your normal avg user.

[Donut417]

52 minutes ago, Commodus said:

2 hours ago, Delicieuxz said:

 

If Windows is such a horrible piece of crap that you can't trust OS updates... maybe you should stop using Windows

Some of us have. I no longer have Windows installed on any of my machines. Moved to Linux. Only one Windows machine in the house and that’s my moms and I rarely have to use it. 

[jagdtigger]

59 minutes ago, Commodus said:

It's still true that they wouldn't have been vulnerable to this particular attack if they'd been running newer versions of Windows.  Look at it like you would home security: making it obvious that you haven't been home for weeks doesn't excuse leaving the back door unlocked.  One fault doesn't excuse the other.

Look, no amount of updates will save the butt of ppl who expose rdp, smb, ssh, telnet, and god knows what else to the world.... Out of date machine? Not as big of a problem as you want to make it out. Dumb users? Now thats your true problem.

[Delicieuxz]

3 hours ago, startrekdude said:

I would consider it annoying in a home use situation but the data would still be there and you should have back ups. At the end of the day its an inconvenience but it just means you have to reinstall windows. I honestly wouldn't call it Bricking because you can just re install windows. Bricking is when your hardware is as good as a brick after something happens to it.

The hardware doesn't get bricked, but the particular installation does.

 

If a system becomes plagued with malware, the same situation occurs where it needs to be restored from a backup. So, in either case of bad updates or a worst-case malware scenario, the solution is the same: Reinstall everything. If a person has their data backed-up the question then is, which is the bigger threat and which is more likely to force a person to have to reinstall everything - malware, or Windows updates? Experience has shown me that Windows updates are far more likely to cause the need to reinstall everything.

 

Also, with a malware scenario it is probable that it can be resolved without having to reinstall everything on the PC, by using anti-virus / anti-malware. But when a Windows update screws stuff up, a path to resolution isn't as likely, isn't as easy to execute, and takes more time if it's even available. And the solution with a bad Windows update is to roll-back the update, leaving a person in the identical situation of not installing Windows updates.

 

2 hours ago, Commodus said:

If Windows is such a horrible piece of crap that you can't trust OS updates... maybe you should stop using Windows PCs unless you have no choice.  Refusing to install updates is no way to go about things, no matter how much you think your other security measures cover those holes.

 

Besides, as I recall, some of the bigger malware campaigns of recent years (including WannaCry) took advantage of companies and people who hadn't upgraded to newer versions of Windows or installed security updates.

Whether Windows is a horrible pile of crap or not and whether its updates can be trusted are two separate matters. Modern Windows updates can't be trusted. Windows' quality as an OS, while degraded somewhat today, is still such that the OS is useful and usable. But taking the right steps to protect its usability are an important part of the quality of experience it delivers.

 

A person's PC is their own property, and so If a person chooses to not install updates on their own system, that's perfectly fine. And if not installing updates resolves their issues, then I think that not installing them is a perfectly good way to go about things.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

2 hours ago, Commodus said:

...If Windows is such a horrible piece of crap that you can't trust OS updates... maybe you should stop using Windows PCs unless you have no choice...

And that is exactly what I did.

[rheyL]

I'm using Windows 7, turned off updates, and still using it now. Got no problems or whatsoever. Been using it for games, browsing and media content. Smooth sailing . Sad to know Microsoft ended its support. 

 

will update to Windows 10 when games and applications starts to leave 7 behind. Until then, I'll use this as my daily driver

[Commodus]

46 minutes ago, Delicieuxz said:

Whether Windows is a horrible pile of crap or not and whether its updates can be trusted are two separate matters. Modern Windows updates can't be trusted. Windows' quality as an OS, while degraded somewhat today, is still such that the OS is useful and usable. But taking the right steps to protect its usability are an important part of the quality of experience it delivers.

 

A person's PC is their own property, and so If a person chooses to not install updates on their own system, that's perfectly fine. And if not installing updates resolves their issues, then I think that not installing them is a perfectly good way to go about things.

No, those matters are one and the same.  If the OS updates are so unreliable that you actually dread upgrading, that makes it a crappy platform because one of its core features -- updating -- is effectively broken.  To abuse car analogies, it's like buying a car you don't dare take in for service because the repair process always breaks something else.  It doesn't matter that the car itself is initially great if the maintenance is uniformly terrible.

 

Also, have you forgotten that a compromised PC may contain data for other people, or can be used as a conduit for attacks on other machines?  Willingly exposing your system to those kinds of exploits doesn't make you smart; it just makes you selfish.  It's the digital equivalent of being an anti-vaxxer.

[jagdtigger]

3 hours ago, Commodus said:

Willingly exposing your system to those kinds of exploits doesn't make you smart;

Not updating != exposing the machine to exploits. You do that when you are a jackass and open anything willy-nilly....