Security updates for Windows 7 ostensibly end tomorrow, but also officially continue until 2023

[TechyBen]

7 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Its not always this simple though. Yesterday I was contacted by a friend who's dad runs his own business, he's a driving instructor. His PC is almost 10 years old, running 7 and when they tried to upgrade to 10 it failed and reverted back to 7 but didn't do this properly so left it in a semi working state.

 

Unfortunately he simply cannot afford to buy a new PC, he even said it would be a struggle to pay me to go around and get the thing working again (I went round earlier and did it for free) but without the PC his business cannot run. He actually missed an appointment today because he couldn't access his schedule, luckily enough he called the guy and explained he'd had a computer crash and the client was OK with a reschedule.

 

Not everyone has the luxury of loose change to buy a PC, even a relatively cheap office PC.

 

He's a hard working 50+ year old guy who relies on his computer to run his business and I felt sorry for him, he was devastated when he thought his computer was dead.

Sorry, but if his business does not have £400/$400 spare for a second hand Windows PC to put a free 10 upgrade on, then I'm not sure, but he might be doing it wrong accounting/priority wise. Many people who would tell me "don't have enough" would still spend 100s on a holiday. Yes, a holiday is nice, but go local/camping this year and upgrade the works PC.

[Master Disaster]

1 minute ago, TechyBen said:

Sorry, but if his business does not have £400/$400 spare for a second hand Windows PC to put a free 10 upgrade on, then I'm not sure, but he might be doing it wrong accounting/priority wise. Many people who would tell me "don't have enough" would still spend 100s on a holiday. Yes, a holiday is nice, but go local/camping this year and upgrade the works PC.

I can't say I disagree with you but that said, I also don't know what his personal circumstances are either.

[jagdtigger]

1 hour ago, Colonel_Gerdauf said:

 

Lets see my w7 box:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/df352jsg4ks0fqg/w7_box.PNG?dl=0

Yet no infections despite the daily use. Dumb ppl will get infected no matter what, those who know what they do  wont. Calling everyone dumb is just rude and a sign of incompetence.

[EasonIDontKnowAnything]

I had disabled all Windows Updates and other features until some time ago. I reckon I'll continue to use Windows 7 with or without support from Microsoft for the years to come. 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

28 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Sorry, but if his business does not have £400/$400 spare for a second hand Windows PC to put a free 10 upgrade on, then I'm not sure, but he might be doing it wrong accounting/priority wise. Many people who would tell me "don't have enough" would still spend 100s on a holiday. Yes, a holiday is nice, but go local/camping this year and upgrade the works PC.

Apparently, you have never actually run a small business. First you don't know his circumstances. Second, most small businesses are running on a shoestring, barely hanging on, often because of competition from the big companies who can afford to run on smaller profit margins than a small business can, have access to bulk discounts on supplies, etc.

 

[Founders]

52 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Its not always this simple though. Yesterday I was contacted by a friend who's dad runs his own business, he's a driving instructor. His PC is almost 10 years old, running 7 and when they tried to upgrade to 10 it failed and reverted back to 7 but didn't do this properly so left it in a semi working state.

 

Unfortunately he simply cannot afford to buy a new PC, he even said it would be a struggle to pay me to go around and get the thing working again (I went round earlier and did it for free) but without the PC his business cannot run. He actually missed an appointment today because he couldn't access his schedule, luckily enough he called the guy and explained he'd had a computer crash and the client was OK with a reschedule.

 

Not everyone has the luxury of loose change to buy a PC, even a relatively cheap office PC.

 

He's a hard working 50+ year old guy who relies on his computer to run his business and I felt sorry for him, he was devastated when he thought his computer was dead. Plus he was good to me when I was going through the difficult teenage years so the least I could do was take an hour to help him out.

Assuming this is a legitimate business and not one operating under the table he could easily buy a new machine every 5 years and write it off as a business expense. If the machine is critical to his day to day functions then he's doing himself a great disservice running a machine that long. He could purchase a new computer for 4-5 hundred dollars. I think this may have more to do with an unwillingness to learn a new OS and migrate his data than actual financial constraints. 

[Curious Pineapple]

How lovely, being shitty about an older dude who may be retired and only working to pay medical bills (if he lives in a country that puts profits over people) and barely get by each month. He may only do a few hours a day and barely make anything after the overheads.

 

Why assume that he's incapable of running a business properly because he can't afford to go out and buy a new machine?

[Alan G]

There are a group of users, including myself, who use Win7 Windows Media Center as DVRs to run cable TV.  It's cheaper than any other commercial alternative and Win10 does NOT offer this as MSFT didn't want to bother running television guide updates on a daily basis.  I have a dedicated Win7 PC that runs my TV with a cable card tuner for premium encoded channels.  The only Internet stuff that I do is streaming on about four sites for movies and sports - nothing else.  Since I have no option than to pay Verizon above the cost of the cable card, this PC is going to run until it breaks (I do have redundant hardware and the OS drive is imaged regularly).  I've been running MSFT Security Essentials on since the PC was built and my understanding is that for the foreseeable future the MSE virus database will be updated.  Since I avoid all the common sources of malware, I'm not terribly concerned about the continued use of Win7 here.

 

Both my wife's and my workstations run Win10 which works just fine.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

2 hours ago, Founders said:

Assuming this is a legitimate business and not one operating under the table he could easily buy a new machine every 5 years and write it off as a business expense. If the machine is critical to his day to day functions then he's doing himself a great disservice running a machine that long. He could purchase a new computer for 4-5 hundred dollars. I think this may have more to do with an unwillingness to learn a new OS and migrate his data than actual financial constraints. 

I'll tell you the same thing I told the other person who made a response like this.

 

Apparently, you have never actually run a small business. First you don't know his circumstances. Second, most small businesses are running on a shoestring, barely hanging on, often because of competition from the big companies who can afford to run on smaller profit margins than a small business can, have access to bulk discounts on supplies, etc.

[dalekphalm]

28 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

I'll tell you the same thing I told the other person who made a response like this.

 

Apparently, you have never actually run a small business. First you don't know his circumstances. Second, most small businesses are running on a shoestring, barely hanging on, often because of competition from the big companies who can afford to run on smaller profit margins than a small business can, have access to bulk discounts on supplies, etc.

I get that - and yes, small businesses tend to be at a disadvantage. But it’s a driving school. What supplies are really being consumed here on a regular basis outside of car maintenance?

 

Obviously we would need to know more to make a conclusion, but from the limited info we do have, it sounds like a failing business. 
 

That sucks and I do have sympathy for him. It might not even be failing due to his actions (could be something out of his direct control). But he clearly said that the owner couldn’t even pay him for the service of getting the PC back up and running. 
 

That’s a really big red flag - it means the business has no cash flow. Hopefully he can recover from this and pull the business ahead. 

[Sauron]

3 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

But it’s a driving school. What supplies are really being consumed here on a regular basis outside of car maintenance?

I don't know the specifics of this example but I think there's quite a bit a driving school needs to pay for aside from the cars - fuel, insurance, rent, the salary of their employees, a state certification (depending on the country)... and at least one computer apparently.

4 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Unfortunately he simply cannot afford to buy a new PC, he even said it would be a struggle to pay me to go around and get the thing working again (I went round earlier and did it for free) but without the PC his business cannot run. He actually missed an appointment today because he couldn't access his schedule, luckily enough he called the guy and explained he'd had a computer crash and the client was OK with a reschedule.

Are you sure he knows what a decent computer would cost him? Maybe he doesn't realize he could get out of this mess with $200 or less (I'm assuming buying a refurb wouldn't be a problem...)

[dalekphalm]

3 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I don't know the specifics of this example but I think there's quite a bit a driving school needs to pay for aside from the cars

You're talking about expenses. They mentioned "Supplies with bulk discounts" - which a Driving School isn't going to be at much of a disadvantage there.

3 minutes ago, Sauron said:

- fuel, insurance,

Both can be tossed in under car maintenance - I should have rather said car expenses in general. Whether you run a small business or a large business, you're likely not paying too much different (and insurance wise can vary wildly between location so difficult to compare).

3 minutes ago, Sauron said:

rent,

Sounds like the business is ran out of their house - but if they are leasing an office, then yes. But, they would need a much smaller office (probably) than a bigger business - either way, this is unlikely to be affected by "large vs small" business.

3 minutes ago, Sauron said:

the salary of their employees, a state certification (depending on the country)... and at least one computer apparently.

All of these are more or less gonna be the same for a small business owner vs a large business. If anything, the employee would cost more in a large business which probably offers benefits, health insurance, etc.

3 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Are you sure he knows what a decent computer would cost him? Maybe he doesn't realize he could get out of this mess with $200 or less (I'm assuming buying a refurb wouldn't be a problem...)

Agreed - literally, just bring him down to an off-lease discount PC warehouse and have him buy a used Dell Optiplex w/ Windows 10 pre-installed for $150-250.

 

Or, if he's that tight for money, I'd maybe talk to his kid (the friend) and between the two of them, try and scrap together enough money to buy and donate a PC to him, if he's struggling financially that much.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

I'll tell you the same thing I told the other person who made a response like this.

 

Apparently, you have never actually run a small business. First you don't know his circumstances. Second, most small businesses are running on a shoestring, barely hanging on, often because of competition from the big companies who can afford to run on smaller profit margins than a small business can, have access to bulk discounts on supplies, etc.

As someone who has run several small businesses and heavily involved in one very large one,  I just can't see how a business that doesn't have $500 set aside for known capital  requirements even survives.    Running a business is not like doing a paper round where you can live week to week on your income,  as part of a structure business plan you have to have access to funds to maintain the business.  If your business is failing  to be able to cover a $500 expense then the owner needs to rethink why.  

 

Not being able to pay for  anew PC isn't the cause of the failure of the business but it certainly is the result of a failure in business.

[SpikeSpiegel]

I know a small business that still uses Windows 98 SE and they don't hook their machines to the internet.  Just a network cable thru a hub for network to network transfer for customer data backups.  They use a POS software that can't be used beyond Windows 98SE.  

[Lady Fitzgerald]

36 minutes ago, mr moose said:

As someone who has run several small businesses and heavily involved in one very large one,  I just can't see how a business that doesn't have $500 set aside for known capital  requirements even survives.    Running a business is not like doing a paper round where you can live week to week on your income,  as part of a structure business plan you have to have access to funds to maintain the business.  If your business is failing  to be able to cover a $500 expense then the owner needs to rethink why.  

 

Not being able to pay for  anew PC isn't the cause of the failure of the business but it certainly is the result of a failure in business.

We still do not have enough details about the business to make that determination. How much of the man's total income came from the business? If 100%, yeah, not being able to scarf up $500 would certianly be a warning sign not all is well. Then again, this is an older man and his business may be only supplementing a retirement income.

 

There are still a lot of small businesses that are on the wire edge of failure (most new small businesses fail in the first two years, usually due to unexpected expenses before operating capital can be built up).

[dalekphalm]

12 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

We still do not have enough details about the business to make that determination. How much of the man's total income came from the business? If 100%, yeah, not being able to scarf up $500 would certianly be a warning sign not all is well. Then again, this is an older man and his business may be only supplementing a retirement income.

He said the guy was in his 50’s. Retirement age is 60-65. If he’s retired, he chose to retire early. 
 

I agree there’s not enough detail but it certainly leans towards what we’ve said. 

12 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

There are still a lot of small businesses that are on the wire edge of failure (most new small businesses fail in the first two years, usually due to unexpected expenses before operating capital can be built up).

All true - which is why making sure you have enough cash flow is important for a new business. 

[Donut417]

19 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

before operating capital can be built up)

Ding Ding Ding. 

 

Most people dont understand that when you first start a business you dont acutally make any money generally. Because it costs money to start a business. You have to make an investment and it takes time for that investment to start paying off. My neighbors own a frozen yougurt shop. It took a few years before it was profitable. But they powered thru it. But that take time and most people dont understand that, so they do piss poor planing and the business ends up failing. 

[Founders]

2 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

I'll tell you the same thing I told the other person who made a response like this.

 

Apparently, you have never actually run a small business. First you don't know his circumstances. Second, most small businesses are running on a shoestring, barely hanging on, often because of competition from the big companies who can afford to run on smaller profit margins than a small business can, have access to bulk discounts on supplies, etc.

Let me ask you this. How much of his time, money, and other resources would have been wasted if the computer had failed entirely leaving his data unrecoverable? You can’t answer that, neither can I, but we can both assume a measurable amount that would have effected his income. Operating on a shoestring or not, continuing to run Windows 7 on a 10 year old machine will eventually cost him even more if he does nothing about it. 
 

[Kisai]

On 1/13/2020 at 3:59 PM, Delicieuxz said:

Personally, I ran Windows 7 without any new updates since around July 2015 until 2019, and I never encountered an issue from it. Since doing a fresh installation of my system I've had just Windows 10 LTSC installed, but I think I still wouldn't have an issue with continuing to run Windows 7 without security updates.

Just because you like to live dangerously, doesn't mean people don't feel comfortable with seatbelts and airbags.

 

The office I do work for, very hastily started forcing updates to Win10 from around September, and I know for fact there are several Win7 machines still around. The users of those machines rarely put them on the network and work remotely.

 

The IT department doesn't want to pay to update these things, so they've spent money, even offered people new computers to stop using the Win7 ones.

[SpikeSpiegel]

Not updating your Windows security updates is one way of getting your PC hijacked and taken over by hackers.  You should always keep your PC updated.

[Donut417]

2 minutes ago, CalintzJerevinan said:

Not updating your Windows security updates is one way of getting your PC hijacked and taken over by hackers.  You should always keep your PC updated.

Windows 10 updates have been known to make your machine unresposive and or not boot properly. Ive had it happen myself. So in reality your fucked either way. 

[SpikeSpiegel]

1 minute ago, Donut417 said:

Windows 10 updates have been known to make your machine unresposive and or not boot properly. Ive had it happen myself. So in reality your fucked either way. 

Yeah I know the feature updates are the main issue as well.  I need to download 1909 but I'm still on 1903.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

He said the guy was in his 50’s. Retirement age is 60-65. If he’s retired, he chose to retire early. 
 

I agree there’s not enough detail but it certainly leans towards what we’ve said. 

All true - which is why making sure you have enough cash flow is important for a new business. 

I was 55 when I first retired (I left to get my pension and bennies locked in before the company could reduce them further). I worked a low paying job after that which I thought would be a stress free to supplement my income until Social Security kicked in but got fed up with the B.S. and retired for keep at 60. My failing health wouldn't have let me work too much longer, anyway.

 

People retire at all ages. Some retire early becasue they can afford it., some because their jobs go away and they can't find other work, some for health reasons. etc. We simply don't know the man's situation.

1 hour ago, Founders said:

Let me ask you this. How much of his time, money, and other resources would have been wasted if the computer had failed entirely leaving his data unrecoverable? You can’t answer that, neither can I, but we can both assume a measurable amount that would have effected his income. Operating on a shoestring or not, continuing to run Windows 7 on a 10 year old machine will eventually cost him even more if he does nothing about it. 
 

As you finally admitted, we don't know enough to judge.

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

We still do not have enough details about the business to make that determination. How much of the man's total income came from the business? If 100%, yeah, not being able to scarf up $500 would certianly be a warning sign not all is well. Then again, this is an older man and his business may be only supplementing a retirement income.

 

There are still a lot of small businesses that are on the wire edge of failure (most new small businesses fail in the first two years, usually due to unexpected expenses before operating capital can be built up).

 

We don't need to know anything about the business to know that not having access to $500 at anytime means the business is not looking good and not running properly, regardless of what it is.   Upgrading his PC is the last of his worries.  I think some people are trying to dislodge the discussion and take the focus of the fact that running an unsupported OS is not a good idea.  Forget trying to use a failing business as reasoning against that.  We may as well start debating the value of credit to cash flow in a small business for the relevance it has in debating the silliness that is trying to prevent windows 7 from becoming obsolete.   I get what you are saying, for the most part every business needs to be appraised on its own merits, however somethings are just universal when it comes to business and they have little to offer in this discussion. 

[Delicieuxz]

5 hours ago, CalintzJerevinan said:

Not updating your Windows security updates is one way of getting your PC hijacked and taken over by hackers.  You should always keep your PC updated.

It's much more important to back up your files than it is to update a PC.

 

I've had my Win 10 system bricked 3 times due to installing Microsoft's Windows 10 updates. I've had not a single issue from turning off updates for both Windows 10 and Windows 7, for years.

 

So, if concerned about your files and PC's usability, backing up files while disabling Windows Update is the safest route possible, in my experience.