How do you even cool this thing - i9-10990XE + 10th gen i3/i5 spotted

[mr moose]

Just now, spartaman64 said:

these dont really inspire confidence for me but idk we'll see i guess

You are judging how well built something is by it's lack of frilly parts?  I am afraid you are looking at this through the eyes of a DIY enthusiast.  OEM's do not waste time or money with unnecessary paint, fancy shrouds or RGB.  The parts are designed to work good not to look good.

[TechyBen]

22 minutes ago, Zando Bob said:

Which appeals to a lot of people, just like Jeremy Clarkson does. 

99% of people I know/met/see post don't like him. TBH I only liked him/his shows because (like the other 2 stooges  ) I thought he was doing it as an act. If that's how he acts IRL, then rather poor of him. Things like punching his boss, who was also his best mate and business partner, smacks of (excuse the pun) either an argument between friends, or a get out free of contract attempt. Thus even those kind of events are blown out of proportion by the newspapers (and agian, his private life plastered over them ) . Hard to decide I guess... I've got a rotten sense of humour, and Top Gear always set it off... until they started lying about car stats "it always breaks down" Tesla etc vs the jokes "it can fly you to the moon" Robin Reliant.

[Bombastinator]

8 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You are judging how well built something is by it's lack of frilly parts?  I am afraid you are looking at this through the eyes of a DIY enthusiast.  OEM's do not waste time or money with unnecessary paint, fancy shrouds or RGB.  The parts are designed to work good not to look good.

I was judging how well that PSU is made by the lack of bushing on that hole where the wires extend.  That’s straight up illegal in household wiring.  The wires get cut by the metal hole.

[Arika]

29 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

these dont really inspire confidence for me but idk we'll see i guess

funny. i remember having a computer with parts that looked like that. it ran for 10 years

[spartaman64]

1 minute ago, Arika S said:

funny. i remember having a computer with parts that looked like that. it ran for 10 years

ofc if you just have like a 90w cpu then its not a problem but if you have a 380w cpu that puts a lot more stress on the PSU and motherboard

[leadeater]

43 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

OEMs wont like it either since they cant use their shitty generic psus for this and they are not going to be paying the extra money and they are going to pass it onto the consumer so its not just oh higher electricity bill it affects other parts of the computer. so i dont see how what i said wont apply to OEM computers if fact it probably will apply more since they cant cheap out on what they usually cheap out on 

Those generic PSUs come from the same companies as the more pleasing to look at gaming ones. The only difference is that part of the supply contract [Vendor X] asks for it to be black and sleeve the cables. Take off the EVGA etc badge and underneath it's an FSP/Super Flower etc PSU. Power supplies included with systems don't need to look nice because you're not actually trying to sell them and compete in the PSU market so looks don't matter.

 

Either way you have no way of knowing how good a PSU is just be looking at it.

[Arika]

13 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

ofc if you just have like a 90w cpu then its not a problem but if you have a 380w cpu that puts a lot more stress on the PSU and motherboard

and OEM parts would be made to handle a 380w CPU if that's what they were going to be putting in it. OEMs are not stupid

[spartaman64]

2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Those generic PSUs come from the same companies as the more pleasing to look at gaming ones. The only difference is that part of the supply contract [Vendor X] asks for it to be black and sleeve the cables. Take off the EVGA etc badge and underneath it's an FSP/Super Flower etc PSU. Power supplies included with systems don't need to look nice because you're not actually trying to sell them and compete in the PSU market so looks don't matter.

 

Either way you have no way of knowing how good a PSU is just be looking at it.

ive always heard that OEMs skimp on the motherboard and psu to increase their profit margins and looking at the parts they look like they are cheaply made but i guess you can't really tell by that

[spartaman64]

2 hours ago, Arika S said:

and OEM parts would be made to handle a 380w CPU if that's what they were going to be putting in it. OEMs are not stupid

yes i know they are going to put a better psu but they are going to forward that cost onto you probably and charge more than they normally would have and because of that i think that it should be considered as part of the cpu cost. like if cpu A is 200 dollars and requires a 50 dollar psu and a 50 dollar cooler while cpu B cost 200 dollars but requires a 100 dollar cooler and an 100 dollar psu imo the cpus dont "cost the same" i think of cpu B as 100 dollars more than cpu A

[Bombastinator]

The problem I’ve found with oem PSUs is superspecialization.  They often have connectors or peer levels useful only in the box they came in.  Shortened and non existent connector cables is a big one.  Strange power capacities is another.  Neither has to do with mechanical quality bu can still cause problems

[leadeater]

10 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

ive always heard that OEMs skimp on the motherboard and psu to increase their profit margins and looking at the parts they look like they are cheaply made but i guess you can't really tell by that

Some are some aren't, that's sort of the problem going by looks. FSP/Super Flower make high quality 300W-500W PSUs as well as bottom barrel stuff and they look very much the same. Ones I hate are the custom jobs that HP/Dell/Lenovo love to use with non standard plugs that don't actually save any space.

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

I was judging how well that PSU is made by the lack of bushing on that hole where the wires extend.  That’s straight up illegal in household wiring.  The wires get cut by the metal hole.

We have no idea where those pictures came from or what the intended purpose is.  judging a PSU on it's lack of paint and RGB is as silly as claiming a car is mechanically shit because it doesn't have a spoiler or metallic finish.

[Bombastinator]

53 minutes ago, mr moose said:

We have no idea where those pictures came from or what the intended purpose is.  judging a PSU on it's lack of paint and RGB is as silly as claiming a car is mechanically shit because it doesn't have a spoiler or metallic finish.

I was talking about the bushing.  See that hole in front where the wires come through it?  That’s a punched hole. The edges are sharp.  It will abrade the wiring as it moves.  A bushing is a protective plastic ring that goes in the hole and covers the edge.  They’re cheap and they work.  There isn’t one. It might have merely been removed it’s true.  There would probably be a circular mark around the outside of the hole where the bushing sat.  Again, there isn’t one.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

I was talking about the bushing.  See that hole in front where the wires come through it?  That’s a punched hole. The edges are sharp.  It will abrade the wiring as it moves.  A bushing is a protective plastic ring that goes in the hole and covers the edge.  They’re cheap and they work.  There isn’t one. It might have merely been removed it’s true.  There would probably be a circular mark around the outside of the hole where the bushing sat.  Again, there isn’t one.

Yeah, I saw it. I don't know where the picture came from. it might be a DIY modified unit, it might be a pre production prototype, it might have something in side mitigating that.  We just don't know anything about it,  therefore using it to underpin an opinion about OEM parts is mistaken, especially against the vast number of OEM PC's in use and the relatively low number of issues reported.  If there was a higher than normal failure rate or higher than normal recalls for OEM parts versus of the shelf parts then there might be something to discuss, but given these parts are usually identical to any other "Gamer" or DIY part off the shelf just without the paint and sleeving I see no reason to be overly particular about it.

 

 

[Bombastinator]

33 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Yeah, I saw it. I don't know where the picture came from. it might be a DIY modified unit, it might be a pre production prototype, it might have something in side mitigating that.  We just don't know anything about it,  therefore using it to underpin an opinion about OEM parts is mistaken, especially against the vast number of OEM PC's in use and the relatively low number of issues reported.  If there was a higher than normal failure rate or higher than normal recalls for OEM parts versus of the shelf parts then there might be something to discuss, but given these parts are usually identical to any other "Gamer" or DIY part off the shelf just without the paint and sleeving I see no reason to be overly particular about it.

 

 

Well obviously.  It’s only one OEM part, and there are hundreds.  Moreover the chances that it is the worst oem part ever may be pretty high simply because it was used as an example.  My reasons for disliking OEM machines have nothing to do with part quality or even design.... or perhaps exactly design.  OEM machines have the opportunity to be over engineered, and sometimes they are to the point that the parts cannot be used elsewhere, or that they can be modified at all.  The trick with engineering isn’t to make a strong bridge after all.  It’s to make a bridge that is only just strong enough.  Too strong is easy.  OEM parts are meant to go in OEM machines.  Usually very specific ones.  When you take them out and use them elsewhere, or put stresses on them they were not designed to handle, then bad things can happen.  So are they bad parts? No.  They’re fit for purpose.  The problem is the purpose can be very particular.  With PSUs that can show in particular ways.  Ever seen a 230w PSU?  I have.  How about a 158w?  Perfect when put in a place they are fit for.  The problem happens when that place changes.  
 

As an example: that PSU with the hole:  IF for example the machine it came from had a support clamp for those wires a few inches from where they emerged, ther would be no need for a bushing at all.  It would be fine.  In that environment.

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Well obviously.  It’s only one OEM part, and there are hundreds.  Moreover the chances that it is the worst oem part ever may be pretty high simply because it was used as an example.  My reasons for disliking OEM machines have nothing to do with part quality or even design.... or perhaps exactly design.  OEM machines have the opportunity to be over engineered, and sometimes they are to the point that the parts cannot be used elsewhere, or that they can be modified at all.  The trick with engineering isn’t to make a strong bridge after all.  It’s to make a bridge that is only just strong enough.  Too strong is easy.  OEM parts are meant to go in OEM machines.  Usually very specific ones.  When you take them out and use them elsewhere, or put stresses on them they were not designed to handle, then bad things can happen.  So are they bad parts? No.  They’re fit for purpose.  The problem is the purpose can be very particular.  With PSUs that can show in particular ways.  Ever seen a 230w PSU?  I have.  How about a 158w?  Perfect when put in a place they are fit for.  The problem happens when that place changes.  

I am not too sure how fit for purpose makes anything I have said irrelevant or even wrong.  I think the discussion has blurred from power requirement and part quality to a whole new question of what's good/bad by way of design choice.

 

 

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I am not too sure how fit for purpose makes anything I have said irrelevant or even wrong.  I think the discussion has blurred from power requirement and part quality to a whole new question of what's good/bad by way of design choice.

 

 

Yes and no.  The issue is that non OEM machine parts are designed for a specific purpose too.  And that purpose is much more variable.  OEM parts are often not trustable  in the environment of custom built machines.  They’re “bad” or potentially so, for that purpose.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Yes and no.  The issue is that non OEM machine parts are designed for a specific purpose too.  And that purpose is much more variable.  OEM parts are often not trustable  in the environment of custom built machines.  They’re “bad” or potentially so, for that purpose.

 

This discussion has never been about using OEM parts outside of their intended design use.

 

[Bombastinator]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

This discussion has never been about using OEM parts outside of their intended design use.

 

No. It was about high heat CPUs.  This turned to to powering high heat CPUs and it was mentioned that using parts from oem machines would likely be a terrible idea.  Things devolved from there.

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

No. It was about high heat CPUs.  This turned to to powering high heat CPUs and it was mentioned that using parts from oem machines would likely be a terrible idea.  Things devolved from there.

That's not the conversation I have been in.   I made mention that power consumption was not a major concern for many of the people likely to end up with this CPU because OEM's are the majority buyers for said products, not DIY consumers. To that it was implied OEM had shit hardware and couldn't cope with the part. from there I have been explaining that OEM parts are not shit and generally adequately spec'd for the job they are expected to do.

 

I haven't quoted nor engaged in a post regarding using OEM parts or trying  o upgrade OEM machines.

[Bombastinator]

Just now, mr moose said:

That's not the conversation I have been in.   I made mention that power consumption was not a major concern for many of the people likely to end up with this CPU because OEM's are the majority buyers for said products, not DIY consumers. To that it was implied OEM had shit hardware and couldn't cope with the part. from there I have been explaining that OEM parts are not shit and generally adequately spec'd for the job they are expected to do.

Oh. Well that argument is not right.  OEMs have access to the same hardware and they can use it better.  It’s the whole reason they can get away with “shit” hardware in the first place.  When they use it in an OEMmachine it’s not shit anymore because they know how to use it.

[CarlBar]

34 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Oh. Well that argument is not right.  OEMs have access to the same hardware and they can use it better.  It’s the whole reason they can get away with “shit” hardware in the first place.  When they use it in an OEMmachine it’s not shit anymore because they know how to use it.

 

Some of the rep on OEM parts dates back to older days IMO. I remember around the turn of the millenium when Computer enthusiast stuff was still mainly through magazines and you saw plenty, (not necessarily the majority but enough to raise eyebrows), of OEM systems reviewed where the PSU was suspect or outright bad.

 

Another factor is that OEM's are generally never going to spec anything to last longer than the warranty unless it's effectively free to do so. Given people can and do use systems long beyond normal OEM warranty periods thats a potential area where people are going to get burned too. (Not that having a warranty for X years means no failures, i experienced that with my 2080Ti, i suspect i got one of the original bad batch but the fact that i got really into some low performance games, (lol, but it happens got good use out of it's legs since), for the first several months of ownership kept me from pushing it hard enough for it to show). 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

Oh. Well that argument is not right.  OEMs have access to the same hardware and they can use it better.  It’s the whole reason they can get away with “shit” hardware in the first place.  When they use it in an OEMmachine it’s not shit anymore because they know how to use it.

It's not shit if it caters to the design spec/target consumer.  The biggest problem with the DIY enthusiast world (like these forums) is that people confuse lower spec with lower quality.  A PC that is only designed to do office work does not need more than 90W and an ITX all onboard system.  They can be built to a high standard for that purpose, however people think that 90W equals low quality and that the PC is shit value because its only a celeron etc etc.   

 

 

[Bombastinator]

Just now, mr moose said:

It's not shit if it caters to the design spec/target consumer.  The biggest problem with the DIY enthusiast world (like these forums) is that people confuse lower spec with lower quality.  A PC that is only designed to do office work does not need more than 90W and an ITX all onboard system.  They can be built to a high standard for that purpose, however people think that 90W equals low quality and that the PC is shit value because its only a celeron etc etc.   

 

 

I thought we were talking about high heat stuff now.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I thought we were talking about high heat stuff now.

Same thing applies, when HP/Dell make a workstation they usually spec a PSU that can deliver the required power for the required load expectations.  If that's a 750W with no headroom but a solid unit that will keep working for several years then that's what they'll do.  Just because some forum enthusiasts believe you need 1000W minimum so you can upgrade to dual 2080ti's in the future doesn't make the 750w unit poor quality.  They are prebuilt systems, they are not bought by people who intend to upgrade them in the future.