The I of the tiger - Intel CES 2020 with NUCs and Athena

[williamcll]

With AMD on the rise, Intel have announced a few upcoming products, notably their 10nm Tiger lake CPU as well as the Xe dedicated graphics. Note that both products demonstrated on stage were laptop products

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Near the end of the show, Intel gave us a sneak peek into an actual new product: Tiger Lake, the next (11th?) generation of mobile Ultrabook-class processors. These processors are notable primarily because they'll be the first consumer-class processors that will feature Intel Xe graphics. These integrated Xe graphics will, according to Intel, be twice as powerful as the Gen11 graphics in comparable Ice Lake processors.  Intel didn't share any specifics about these chips, beyond the fact that they'll be available by the end of the year. We expect to learn more at Computex 2020.

 

We also got a super brief look at the first discrete Intel Xe graphics processor, code named "DG1". It was shown on stage running Destiny 2. However, it should be noted that this was a mobile-class graphics processor, rather than a full desktop graphics card. Which leaves us to wonder: what is Intel doing in the desktop space?

Their new NUC also gots some reviews, it is thicker than the previous Hades model:

And some laptops, including chromebooks got Athena- certified:

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The good news: Bryant did give a brief update on the current state of Project Athena: specifically that, as of CES 2020, 25 new laptops have passed the verification necessary to be included in the program. That means longer battery life and faster wake times, but because this program is already old news, it probably doesn't mean much to you, at least beyond the fact that new Chromebooks from Samsung and Asus are included for the first time.

Other than AV1 support for Netflix and a few AI use cases for different organisation, not much else is announced outside a few laptops mentioned in other threads.

Source:https://newsroom.intel.com/news-releases/intel-ces-2020/#gs.qatgi9

https://www.techradar.com/news/at-ces-2020-intel-fails-to-defend-its-crown-from-amd

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15338/intel-ces-2020-keynote-live-blog-ice-comets-and-more-to-come

Thoughts: Shame that there's no news about their PC line-up, the fact that most of the coming releases are still with low power low core count 10nm, I can guess Intel still haven't solved their production issues.

[Guest]

 

I understood the potential uses of it, but this–of all things–Razer Tomahawk looks pretty neat.

[mariushm]

I would believe Xe is a thing, if it survives 2-3 years and gets periodic driver updates (let's say at least once every 3 months or so).

 

Intel doesn't have a great history here... you can look at the NUCs with Radeon graphics: they lasted ~ 1 year and they discontinued them, and some modern games already crash or don't work, because Intel will not update those Radeon graphics drivers anymore

 

Why would I buy a laptop with Xe graphics when there's a bit chance Intel changes their minds a year from now and cancels Xe graphics?

See video below

 

 

[schwellmo92]

1 hour ago, Den-Fi said:

 

I understood the potential uses of it, but this–of all things–Razer Tomahawk looks pretty neat.

Can you explain the appeal to be over just buying a regular 10L SFF case and using standard off-the-shelf components? This thing here you’re paying more for, have worse upgradability and would be slower.

[saltycaramel]

20 minutes ago, schwellmo92 said:

Can you explain the appeal to be over just buying a regular 10L SFF case and using standard off-the-shelf components? This thing here you’re paying more for, have worse upgradability and would be slower.

 

It’s the “Lego” version of similar SFF builds people have been doing for ages.

You don’t get to mess with CPU sockets, pins, thermal paste, etc. you just slot in the whole daughterboard.

Plus you get a 45W H-class mobile CPU you don’t usually have access to when building these. 

 

Wonder what people think of the fact they use a  pcie 16x pipe to serve a 16x (gpu) + a 4x (m.2) + another 4x (add-in)...basically the GPU at times could be dealing with a 8x-like bandwidth...stil more than a 4x eGPU but the gap is closing...and eGPUs apparently are getting double the bandwidth next year (Thunderbolt 4)....that ”Compute Element” is said to cost 1050$-1700$, basically you could get a full MacMini with an actual 65W desktop (not mobile) 6-core...and add a Razer Core X eGPU to it...

 

Also, what happens when you upgrade the Compute Element, you sell the old one “naked” to someone? 

In the end, what guarantees one has that Intel will keep doing more of these..

 

Anyway interesting to see the “democratization” of this kind of builds....but probably the upgradability thing is more psychological peace of mind than practical, at those prices a “noob” that doesn’t want to seat a CPU and install a Noctua L9i on it may as well buy a something exactly like that (if any OEM offered it), i.e. a 5-10L back-to-back sff, with a regular screwed-in motherboard, cpu+cooler already installed, and a pcie ribbon riser already in place...

[Sorenson]

49 minutes ago, schwellmo92 said:

Can you explain the appeal to be over just buying a regular 10L SFF case and using standard off-the-shelf components? This thing here you’re paying more for, have worse upgradability and would be slower.

Most SFF cases are sub 20L, with the smaller ones like the dan case (~7L) being extremely hard to cool the components properly. This is pretty cool because you can take the lower power mobile chip, give it better cooling, and then combine in it with a full size graphics card for pretty close to desktop performance.
 

The biggest downside is the price. In Steve’s video he mentioned that the computer PCIE card was going to be like $1700 for the i9 model (without the OS, storage, memory, PSU, or GPU). At that price it’s just insane to buy it. I think the product needs to be like half the cost to not be DOA. 

[Tristerin]

1 hour ago, mariushm said:

I would believe Xe is a thing, if it survives 2-3 years and gets periodic driver updates (let's say at least once every 3 months or so).

 

Intel doesn't have a great history here... you can look at the NUCs with Radeon graphics: they lasted ~ 1 year and they discontinued them, and some modern games already crash or don't work, because Intel will not update those Radeon graphics drivers anymore

 

Why would I buy a laptop with Xe graphics when there's a bit chance Intel changes their minds a year from now and cancels Xe graphics?

See video below

 

 

Yup - its a "fool me once" situation.  And their historical practices don't give me warm fuzzy feelings.

[pas008]

2 hours ago, mariushm said:

I would believe Xe is a thing, if it survives 2-3 years and gets periodic driver updates (let's say at least once every 3 months or so).

 

Intel doesn't have a great history here... you can look at the NUCs with Radeon graphics: they lasted ~ 1 year and they discontinued them, and some modern games already crash or don't work, because Intel will not update those Radeon graphics drivers anymore

 

Why would I buy a laptop with Xe graphics when there's a bit chance Intel changes their minds a year from now and cancels Xe graphics?

See video below

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

Yup - its a "fool me once" situation.  And their historical practices don't give me warm fuzzy feelings.

I'm trying to understand how is Intel completely responsible for this when it does say radeon?

[Tristerin]

15 minutes ago, pas008 said:

 

I'm trying to understand how is Intel completely responsible for this when it does say radeon?

Intel is the brand selling it with Radeon hardware/software installed.  I would expect Intel to have its contracts in place to ensure the end user gets to use its hardware as "expected" through industry standards.  I view this as the same as thinking its a good idea to early adopt one of the GPU's - this isn't their first foray into this market and that was a flop, so Im approaching it entirely with this in mind as well.

[pas008]

1 minute ago, Tristerin said:

Intel is the brand selling it with Radeon hardware/software installed.  I would expect Intel to have its contracts in place to ensure the end user gets to use its hardware as "expected" through industry standards.  I view this as the same as thinking its a good idea to early adopt one of the GPU's - this isn't their first foray into this market and that was a flop, so Im approaching it entirely with this in mind as well.

So its asrock, asus, etc

From motherboard pov Sole responsibility for intels or amds chipset drivers, realteks drivers, not mention many other drivers?

Wow

[mariushm]

25 minutes ago, pas008 said:

 

I'm trying to understand how is Intel completely responsible for this when it does say radeon?

Intel signed an agreement with Radeon Technologies Group - a company under AMD - and AMD designed silicon chip for Intel and Intel put the silicon chip in the package with the cpu (read under the same metal lid on which you put the cooler).

 

They got drivers from AMD and based on the contract, AMD were probably supposed to continue releasing drivers for that custom chip as long as Intel kept the contract... but if I were to guess, Intel were lazy testing and adapting the AMD drivers and rebranding them to look as if they come from Intel (they change the control center app to look blue and have the Intel logo and so on)

If I were to be mean, I'd say Intel probably got all their developers busy with fixing all the exploits in their processors and also got pissed at AMD for winning with the Ryzen CPUs so they decided to not continue with AMD chips.

 

So Intel just discontinued the whole series of chips a year after they launched those machines, which may I remind you that were quite expensive, I think they used to cost 1000$ each or something like that.

 

in response to previous comment: The graphics are integrated in the cpu package, it's different than a company like Asus or Asrock selling a system with a dedicated video card... because you can remove the dedicated video card and replace it with something. With those Intel cpus you are stuck with integrated graphics that crashes in some games due to old drivers, and you don't have a way to add graphics to your small pc.

[Bombastinator]

I’ve seen this sort of thing done many years ago too.  There were custom computer on a pci (no e) card back in the day.  They sold poorly because expandability was extremely problematic.  

[pas008]

2 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Intel signed an agreement with Radeon Technologies Group - a company under AMD - and AMD designed silicon chip for Intel and Intel put the silicon chip in the package with the cpu (read under the same metal lid on which you put the cooler).

 

They got drivers from AMD and based on the contract, AMD were probably supposed to continue releasing drivers for that custom chip as long as Intel kept the contract... but if I were to guess, Intel were lazy testing and adapting the AMD drivers and rebranding them to look as if they come from Intel (they change the control center app to look blue and have the Intel logo and so on)

If I were to be mean, I'd say Intel probably got all their developers busy with fixing all the exploits in their processors and also got pissed at AMD for winning with the Ryzen CPUs so they decided to not continue with AMD chips.

 

So Intel just discontinued the whole series of chips a year after they launched those machines, which may I remind you that were quite expensive, I think they used to cost 1000$ each or something like that.

 

Assumptions 

Ass of you and i meme?

Like i said how is it solely their responsibility

So its asrock, asus, etc

From motherboard pov Sole responsibility for intels or amds chipset drivers, realteks drivers, not mention many other drivers?

Wow

[mariushm]

How is it that hard to understand... it's not the same thing, it's different.

Intel licenses a graphics chip from RTG ... it becomes their problem. It's the same way as AMD licensed the USB 3 controller and SATA controller from AsMedia and embedded them in their socket AM4 chipsets. You don't install AsMedia drivers, you install AMD chipset drivers. AsMedia licensed the controllers to AMD and gave the drivers to AMD to include in the chipset drivers package.

 

It's the same way as AMD makes custom chips for Playstation 4 and Xbox. The chips become Sony's problem, and Microsoft's problem respectively.

RTG sold the silicon die to Intel, Intel put the die besides the Intel cpu die on a substrate along with some "glue" die, and they sell everything as a whole as an "intel cpu"

It's Intel responsibility to release drivers for the CPU and for the "integrated" graphics, at no point it's an AMD video card. That's why they renamed the control center to say Intel and that's why the color is changed to blue and so on.

 

If a company like Asrock or Asus or whatever were able to buy this cpu from Intel, you'd expect to download the drivers for the integrated graphics from Intel, because it's an Intel cpu.

 

[Bombastinator]

2 hours ago, schwellmo92 said:

Can you explain the appeal to be over just buying a regular 10L SFF case and using standard off-the-shelf components? This thing here you’re paying more for, have worse upgradability and would be slower.

This was the problem when this style was done the first time.  The only way to make it work is if the NUCs are a good bit cheaper than an equivelant CPU and motherboard.  Cheap enough to offset the problem with expandability.  This is an idea that already failed once.

[pas008]

1 minute ago, mariushm said:

How is it that hard to understand... it's not the same thing, it's different.

Intel licenses a graphics chip from RTG ... it becomes their problem. It's the same way as AMD licensed the USB 3 controller and SATA controller from AsMedia and embedded them in their socket AM4 chipsets. You don't install AsMedia drivers, you install AMD chipset drivers. AsMedia licensed the controllers to AMD and gave the drivers to AMD to include in the chipset drivers package.

 

It's the same way as AMD makes custom chips for Playstation 4 and Xbox. The chips become Sony's problem, and Microsoft's problem respectively.

RTG sold the silicon die to Intel, Intel put the die besides the Intel cpu die on a substrate along with some "glue" die, and they sell everything as a whole as an "intel cpu"

It's Intel responsibility to release drivers for the CPU and for the "integrated" graphics, at no point it's an AMD video card. That's why they renamed the control center to say Intel and that's why the color is changed to blue and so on.

 

If a company like Asrock or Asus or whatever were able to buy this cpu from Intel, you'd expect to download the drivers for the integrated graphics from Intel, because it's an Intel cpu.

 

 

6 minutes ago, mariushm said:

How is it that hard to understand... it's not the same thing, it's different.

Intel licenses a graphics chip from RTG ... it becomes their problem. It's the same way as AMD licensed the USB 3 controller and SATA controller from AsMedia and embedded them in their socket AM4 chipsets. You don't install AsMedia drivers, you install AMD chipset drivers. AsMedia licensed the controllers to AMD and gave the drivers to AMD to include in the chipset drivers package.

 

It's the same way as AMD makes custom chips for Playstation 4 and Xbox. The chips become Sony's problem, and Microsoft's problem respectively.

RTG sold the silicon die to Intel, Intel put the die besides the Intel cpu die on a substrate along with some "glue" die, and they sell everything as a whole as an "intel cpu"

It's Intel responsibility to release drivers for the CPU and for the "integrated" graphics, at no point it's an AMD video card. That's why they renamed the control center to say Intel and that's why the color is changed to blue and so on.

 

If a company like Asrock or Asus or whatever were able to buy this cpu from Intel, you'd expect to download the drivers for the integrated graphics from Intel, because it's an Intel cpu.

 

Oh so its not vega which is trade marked to who?

 

https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/28432/Radeon-RX-Vega-M-Graphics?product=136865

[porina]

2 hours ago, schwellmo92 said:

Can you explain the appeal to be over just buying a regular 10L SFF case and using standard off-the-shelf components? This thing here you’re paying more for, have worse upgradability and would be slower.

I think the appeal might be more to system "builders" who have less to assemble to get systems out the door.

 

7 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Intel licenses a graphics chip from RTG ... it becomes their problem. It's the same way as AMD licensed the USB 3 controller and SATA controller from AsMedia and embedded them in their socket AM4 chipsets. You don't install AsMedia drivers, you install AMD chipset drivers. AsMedia licensed the controllers to AMD and gave the drivers to AMD to include in the chipset drivers package.

I think there are some nuances in how they are integrated. Basically if the chip or whatever is customised in any way, support for it becomes more of a minefield. The Intel-Vega was such a custom chip. People compared features and whatever, it wasn't a "regular" AMD offering at the time. That needs the custom support for it also. In the AMD case, I assume they were reassigned AMD VIDs instead of Asmedia or whoever's VIDs, so they're not identified similarly. If there are differences beyond that, I wouldn't like to guess.

 

I actually have the opposite problem with Dell. In a Dell PC with Intel Integrated graphics, if you download the Intel driver it wont install and tells you to go to Dell. Dell must have customised it in some way. Apart from having to get it from Dell, it looks, smells and feels the same as Intel Integrated graphics on any other system. No one else forces me to go to the OEM for Intel Integrated drivers. I really prefer vanilla implementations so I can go to the original source for updates, as OEMs generally have a very bad record there.

 

7 minutes ago, mariushm said:

It's the same way as AMD makes custom chips for Playstation 4 and Xbox. The chips become Sony's problem, and Microsoft's problem respectively.

That's more of a different scenario though. You don't buy an AMD chip. You buy the system as a whole. I suppose the same could be said for a NUC come to think of it...

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, pas008 said:

Like i said how is it solely their responsibility

Because the product you buy is an Intel part, the entire thing is Intel's. It has licensed RTG silicon on the same package but Intel makes and sells that, not AMD and AMD couldn't because there is no reverse agreement. Instead of having an Intel iGPU it has an AMD GPU sold to you as an Intel product.

 

To use the Intel product you have to use the Intel drivers, Radeon drivers will not install. They only source of supported drivers is from Intel.

 

That is how it is solely their responsibility because later drivers, as we know, exist but Intel has not done their job to repackage them which allows them to install for the Intel part.

 

You can get 19.12.3 from AMD/Radeon but only 18.12.2 from Intel, that's more than a little behind.

 

Edit:

Many cars from different brands are actually VW Golfs or Polos but you can only get warranty maintenance from the brand you actually brought it from. 

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The Mark 5 Polo, internally designated Typ 6R, is based on Volkswagen's PQ25 platform, shared with the 2008 SEAT Ibiza and the Audi A1

If you buy an Audi A1 you can't go to VW to get the free service and warranty parts while it still has it, you need to go to Audi.

[Deli]

3 hours ago, Sorenson said:

 

The biggest downside is the price. In Steve’s video he mentioned that the computer PCIE card was going to be like $1700 for the i9 model (without the OS, storage, memory, PSU, or GPU). At that price it’s just insane to buy it. I think the product needs to be like half the cost to not be DOA. 

$1700 for the PCIE card? Intel is trying to do an Apple.

[pas008]

25 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Because the product you buy is an Intel part, the entire thing is Intel's. It has licensed RTG silicon on the same package but Intel makes and sells that, not AMD and AMD couldn't because there is no reverse agreement. Instead of having an Intel iGPU it has an AMD GPU sold to you as an Intel product.

 

To use the Intel product you have to use the Intel drivers, Radeon drivers will not install. They only source of supported drivers is from Intel.

 

That is how it is solely their responsibility because later drivers, as we know, exist but Intel has not done their job to repackage them which allows them to install for the Intel part.

 

You can get 19.12.3 from AMD/Radeon but only 18.12.2 from Intel, that's more than a little behind.

 

Edit:

Many cars from different brands are actually VW Golfs or Polos but you can only get warranty maintenance from the brand you actually brought it from. 

If you buy an Audi A1 you can't go to VW to get the free service and warranty parts while it still has it, you need to go to Audi.

 

Its seems to be consistent on mobile ravens ridge vega ones also 

Through other vendors also

Only thing i could find is quarterly updates

From matt but many saying abandoned lol

[leadeater]

8 minutes ago, pas008 said:

Its seems to be consistent on mobile ravens ridge vega ones also 

Through other vendors also

Only thing i could find is quarterly updates

From matt but many saying abandoned lol

Intel ended the contract, so yea it's dead. Doesn't excuse Intel from not updating while the contract was in place. Ideally once that was cancelled AMD could allow Radeon drivers to install but I doubt it's that simple both technically and legally.

 

Edit:

You get more than quarterly updates, you're mistaking the manual download packages. Once the driver is installed it comes through that with all driver releases just like the desktop GPUs.

[Bombastinator]

I’m not sure there’s a lot of point to this thing.  When tiger lake comes out it will have thunderbolt4.  You can hook a 2070 class gpu to a regular nook.

[pas008]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Intel ended the contract, so yea it's dead. Doesn't excuse Intel from not updating while the contract was in place. Ideally once that was cancelled AMD could allow Radeon drivers to install but I doubt it's that simple both technically and legally.

Then why other vendors like Acer selling vega mobile having same issues?

 

[leadeater]

Just now, pas008 said:

Then why other vendors like Acer selling vega mobile having same issues?

 

See edit, driver updates come from AMD directly.

[Sorenson]

37 minutes ago, Deli said:

$1700 for the PCIE card? Intel is trying to do an Apple.

Lol, At least $1700 at apple gets you an entire iMac .