LG makes flagship phone with 3.5mm of space - LG G9 renders found

[Brooksie359]

4 hours ago, Commodus said:

But... that doesn't actually prove your case.  Not at all.

 

All you've shown is that sales are down.  You haven't shown any evidence as to why those sales are down besides anecdotes, and those don't prove there's a broader pattern at work.

 

Here's some basic proof for my case: phone sales are down across the board, including in countries like China where phones with headphone jacks are still commonplace.  In fact, most phones sold are low- and mid-range models that will almost always have headphone jacks -- the average selling price of an Android phone during 2019 is estimated by IDC to be $263.  Unless you somehow have data showing the declines revolve primarily around phones that don't have headphone jacks (and you don't have that data, as is quite obvious), the evidence points to market saturation as the cause.

 

And I have to laugh at the irony of your "make up my own mind based on the data" claim.  Who do you think collects that data?  Analysts.  Many phone vendors don't disclose their shipment numbers, so it's up to analysts to conduct supply chain and sales point checks to fill in the gaps.  And aside from the fact that you don't have enough data to make the conclusions you do, here's the thing: they're called experts because they have the knowledge needed to make a reasonably accurate interpretation of that data.  Remember how early astronomers would get a few things right, but wildly misinterpret data based on unfounded assumptions (like Copernicus believing the Sun was the centre of the universe)?  That's you.

Just because someone collects the data doesn't make their analysis of it correct so idk why you even bring up that they were the ones that gathered the data. You also haven't taken into account that not all markets are the same and just because one portion of the world doesn't upgrade as often as they used to for a specific reason does not mean that it is the same reason for a different part of the world especially when it comes to lower income vs higher income markets as they have very different motivations when purchasing. Also if you looked at the data the decline in sales for the US vs china is not close with the US showing a bigger decline than China. The US saw a 15% decline while china saw a 3% decline in sales so not even close so your point is kinda unfounded https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2019-05-28-gartner-says-global-smartphone-sales-declined-2-7--in. 

The point is high end phones sales have been hit much harder than lower end phones which would support my claim that with all the high end phones getting rid of headphone jacks it has caused sales to decline. 

[D13H4RD]

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

The point is high end phones sales have been hit much harder than lower end phones which would support my claim that with all the high end phones getting rid of headphone jacks it has caused sales to decline. 

Eh, I'd argue that it's much more to do with the fact that midrange phones have already gotten really good to the point where it's pointless to spend the extra on a high-end phone for many, especially when something like a Pixel 3A can do most of what many would need out of a phone without needing to break the bank. One of my mates got a Pixel 3A when his OnePlus 5 broke down and he's been really happy with it. 

 

I'm not saying the lack of a jack didn't play a role at all but it's pretty naive to think that it played a very significant role because you've got to remember that the average consumer isn't the average enthusiast and even those who have phones incorporating headphone jacks tend to be woo-ed by those new-fangled AirPods doo-hickeys. 

 

It's been a thing before the whole jack exodus. It just so happened that the aforementioned exodus, big rise in flagship phone prices and subsequent market decline all occurred at around the same time. 

[dizmo]

6 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

Sure, because the OEM's aren't asking for a high performance overclocked SOC in a gaming phone, or an efficient one in a thinner device? More cameras is easy to market, most likely easier than more battery capacity.

But since you're insisting the headphone jack will break, no I'd rather use wired headphones than an adapter, because adapters can break, and so can the USB port. I'd much rather risk the headphone jack breaking than the USB port, that would still leave me with bluetooth. Breaking the USB port leaves me with much worse wireless charging,and I'd have to transfer data over wifi.

The 3.5mm jack is really nothing to add, doesn't affect water resistance, because we used to have phones with removable batteries and those still had water resistance ratings. If it's down to cost then the OEM's are just getting greedy as it costs nearly nothing to add, and phones are cheap to build. There is no such thing as a "waterproof" phone, if you wanted a waterproof phone there would have to be no ports or holes for speakers or the mic. And yeah of course they want to push customers away from the headphone jack, no headphone jack makes it easier to sell them a $300 pair of wireless headphones a person otherwise wouldn't need because adapters get broken more often than a built in port.

Uh, what? That makes no sense. How is that any kind of argument against the fact that they don't manufacture said products? Thus they're not losing any R&D money into them? Yes, a camera is easier to market. That doesn't mean battery companies aren't improving battery tech. This might also blow your mind; they don't manufacture the sensors either.

 

I'm not insisting it will break, I'm saying it's a point of possible failure, and getting rid of it eliminates that risk. The USB port is significantly stronger, often tested to 10,000 insertions, whereas the 3.5mm headphone jack is tested to 5,000.

 

Do you know how water resistance works on a phone? You have to add gaskets/seals to the ports. So yes, having the headphone jack there definitely affects water resistance; it's something you have to account for. If it's gone, you don't. That's so simple I'm not sure how you don't understand it. As I'll refer to again, the post I had above outlines how it's not the simple cost of the added parts to the device, it's also the added tech time when such parts fail.

 

Please. Don't use such asinine reasons as them wanting to push people towards $300 wireless headphones when there are countless headphones available for significantly less. That just degrades any quality you had in your argument.

 

Maybe, just maybe, they want to push consumers away from something that's over a century old so we can finally move on to something better.

If we always went with the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" mentality we'd still be huddled around campfires with sticks and rocks.

2 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Just because someone collects the data doesn't make their analysis of it correct so idk why you even bring up that they were the ones that gathered the data. You also haven't taken into account that not all markets are the same and just because one portion of the world doesn't upgrade as often as they used to for a specific reason does not mean that it is the same reason for a different part of the world especially when it comes to lower income vs higher income markets as they have very different motivations when purchasing. Also if you looked at the data the decline in sales for the US vs china is not close with the US showing a bigger decline than China. The US saw a 15% decline while china saw a 3% decline in sales so not even close so your point is kinda unfounded https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2019-05-28-gartner-says-global-smartphone-sales-declined-2-7--in. 

The point is high end phones sales have been hit much harder than lower end phones which would support my claim that with all the high end phones getting rid of headphone jacks it has caused sales to decline. 

Your data point is severely flawed. You're looking at one quarter of sales, from the beginning of 2019, a time when most Americans have little money due to holiday spending. So no, they're not going out and buying flagship phones. It would only make sense if you were looking at the year end numbers for the entire year, which IIRC are not published yet. As @Commodus said, you're misinterpreting the data...or picking and choosing what you link to support what you think. Either way, it's flawed. Correlation does not imply causation.

[D13H4RD]

48 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Maybe, just maybe, they want to push consumers away from something that's over a century old so we can finally move on to something better.

TBH, the problem is that we really haven't got anything well and truly better. Bluetooth is essentially the same in 2020 as it was back in 2016 and aside from some attempts to improve it, some issues remain such as interference and skipping which can get well-and-truly annoying. There is potential for USB Audio but USB-C is, well, still pretty messy even 5 years on.

 

I'm not denying that we will ever see an improvement, but I think that we aren't really improving as much as I would have liked. Given that headphone jacks are becoming less and less ubiquitous on consumer equipment, you would think this would help accelerate the adoption of a better solution, but 4-5 years on, I just feel that we're in the same spot as 2016. Maybe we just fired the trigger a bit too early, though one could argue that someone has to fire that trigger eventually.

[kokakolia]

50 minutes ago, D13H4RD said:

TBH, the problem is that we really haven't got anything well and truly better. Bluetooth is essentially the same in 2020 as it was back in 2016 and aside from some attempts to improve it, some issues remain such as interference and skipping which can get well-and-truly annoying. There is potential for USB Audio but USB-C is, well, still pretty messy even 5 years on.

 

I'm not denying that we will ever see an improvement, but I think that we aren't really improving as much as I would have liked. Given that headphone jacks are becoming less and less ubiquitous on consumer equipment, you would think this would help accelerate the adoption of a better solution, but 4-5 years on, I just feel that we're in the same spot as 2016. Maybe we just fired the trigger a bit too early, though one could argue that someone has to fire that trigger eventually.

We are not in the same spot as we were in 2016. I believe that "truly wireless" earbuds are the future, especially for the average concumer who values convenience above everything else. 

[D13H4RD]

5 minutes ago, kokakolia said:

We are not in the same spot as we were in 2016. I believe that "truly wireless" earbuds are the future, especially for the average concumer who values convenience above everything else. 

Aside from that, I don't think BT itself has really improved all that much. 

 

Personal note: Don't like earbuds mainly because I've never found them very comfortable. Still prefer my over-ears though I completely understand if the size is a bit much for them.

[Brooksie359]

5 hours ago, dizmo said:

Uh, what? That makes no sense. How is that any kind of argument against the fact that they don't manufacture said products? Thus they're not losing any R&D money into them? Yes, a camera is easier to market. That doesn't mean battery companies aren't improving battery tech. This might also blow your mind; they don't manufacture the sensors either.

 

I'm not insisting it will break, I'm saying it's a point of possible failure, and getting rid of it eliminates that risk. The USB port is significantly stronger, often tested to 10,000 insertions, whereas the 3.5mm headphone jack is tested to 5,000.

 

Do you know how water resistance works on a phone? You have to add gaskets/seals to the ports. So yes, having the headphone jack there definitely affects water resistance; it's something you have to account for. If it's gone, you don't. That's so simple I'm not sure how you don't understand it. As I'll refer to again, the post I had above outlines how it's not the simple cost of the added parts to the device, it's also the added tech time when such parts fail.

 

Please. Don't use such asinine reasons as them wanting to push people towards $300 wireless headphones when there are countless headphones available for significantly less. That just degrades any quality you had in your argument.

 

Maybe, just maybe, they want to push consumers away from something that's over a century old so we can finally move on to something better.

If we always went with the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" mentality we'd still be huddled around campfires with sticks and rocks.

Your data point is severely flawed. You're looking at one quarter of sales, from the beginning of 2019, a time when most Americans have little money due to holiday spending. So no, they're not going out and buying flagship phones. It would only make sense if you were looking at the year end numbers for the entire year, which IIRC are not published yet. As @Commodus said, you're misinterpreting the data...or picking and choosing what you link to support what you think. Either way, it's flawed. Correlation does not imply causation.

https://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS45042319

No it isn't because even this seperate article is looking at the decline and it is still 15% for the US market YEAR OVER YEAR. It being after Christmas is completely irrelevant because the same was true last year yet last year the US market sold significantly more during the first quarter vs this year. 

[RonnieOP]

15 hours ago, dizmo said:

You don't have to use wireless though. You just use the adapter in the box.

Yes, it's doable. Doable does not mean that it takes nothing. It takes quite a bit to fit that jack in there, and if you don't have to squeeze it in, you have more room for other stuff.

As to the point of failure and same position, I'll just refer you up to my post where I lay out why having 2 jacks is more costly than a single one.

Flagships have been going up, but in their place, midrangers are more than capable for what 90% of people need.

It's now more like PCs; you have entry, mid range, and very high end. Most people only need mid range, and enthusiasts and those better off will go for the high end.

But they arent using the extra space to fit more things.

 

My note 9 for example has headphone jack and sd card slot. And still managed to have everything else. Even newer phones without jacks arent offering anything extra to make up for the extra space. It doesnt even take "quite a bit of space" weve seen the teardowns of phones and how small the headphone jack is. Its not much at all. Strangeparts added a jack to a phone that was designed not to have one. 

 

Sure it cost more to have another jack. Not a life changing amount though. Its not like theyd have to charge another $100 if they included a jack.

[Commodus]

11 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Just because someone collects the data doesn't make their analysis of it correct so idk why you even bring up that they were the ones that gathered the data. You also haven't taken into account that not all markets are the same and just because one portion of the world doesn't upgrade as often as they used to for a specific reason does not mean that it is the same reason for a different part of the world especially when it comes to lower income vs higher income markets as they have very different motivations when purchasing. Also if you looked at the data the decline in sales for the US vs china is not close with the US showing a bigger decline than China. The US saw a 15% decline while china saw a 3% decline in sales so not even close so your point is kinda unfounded https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2019-05-28-gartner-says-global-smartphone-sales-declined-2-7--in. 

The point is high end phones sales have been hit much harder than lower end phones which would support my claim that with all the high end phones getting rid of headphone jacks it has caused sales to decline. 

That's still an unsupported leap in logic.  You still need proof that the decline was due to objections over headphone jacks, and not other (arguably more plausible) explanations.  For example, Americans tend to buy higher-end phones, which tend to last longer, and are thus less likely to replace their phones quickly.  At the same time, China's market is less saturated than the US, is more likely to have higher turnover, and is full of people with lower-end phones who will see a more tangible benefit from upgrading.

 

I brought up analysts collecting the data because it underscores how you cherry-pick the expertise you choose to believe.  You explicitly trust those analysts when they make shipment estimates, but they magically become unreliable when they don't give you the explanation you want to hear.  You just want them to rubber-stamp your preconceived opinions and make excuses when they don't.

[Brooksie359]

2 hours ago, Commodus said:

That's still an unsupported leap in logic.  You still need proof that the decline was due to objections over headphone jacks, and not other (arguably more plausible) explanations.  For example, Americans tend to buy higher-end phones, which tend to last longer, and are thus less likely to replace their phones quickly.  At the same time, China's market is less saturated than the US, is more likely to have higher turnover, and is full of people with lower-end phones who will see a more tangible benefit from upgrading.

 

I brought up analysts collecting the data because it underscores how you cherry-pick the expertise you choose to believe.  You explicitly trust those analysts when they make shipment estimates, but they magically become unreliable when they don't give you the explanation you want to hear.  You just want them to rubber-stamp your preconceived opinions and make excuses when they don't.

I never once used their predictions but their data collected on sales numbers which is not the same as a prediction so I have no idea where you are coming from to say that I trust them with their predictions. Also remember that at the start of all this people were saying that sales figures show that the removal of headphone jacks isn't negatively effecting sales to which I replied how in the world do they figure that is true? You can come up with all the other explanations you want but that does not change that fact that my explanation is a possible and you have no way of proving otherwise. 

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

I'll sick with LG if my phone doesn't work anymore

 

Unless someone else offers quality audio over the 3.5mm jack. LG still gets my money. 

Software updates are pretty slow though, but its pretty clean. 

[Killing-time-itself]

This could be the new "note 9" of phones for this year it has potential for sure