Deliberate bricking, the Sonos way.

[RonnieOP]

Just now, mr moose said:

 

 Given this,  how does sonos 30% to brick the unit make recycling any more prolific? you already take things to the recycle centre, you already aren't interested in selling.  Bricking the unit doesn't make you any more environmentally vigilant.  

 

It doesnt hurt my incentive either though. If im going to recycle it i dont care if its bricked or not.

 

And like i said earlier from what i can see they arent doing any sort of check on the condition of the speaker. So if you have a sonos speaker thats busted and you cant fix it and no one wants to buy....hey you get to recycle it and get a discount. win-win.

 

And this way Sonos protects themselves from consumers lying and saying they recycled it just to get the discount. which we both know is exactly what people would do.

 

Its not a perfect system. But its not a bad one by any means unless someone lies and tosses it into the trash anyway. which wouldnt be on sonos but the person throwing it away.

 

At the end of the day. Sonos is giving people the option to recycle it and get a discount. nobody is forced. anyone can look up the pros and cons and see what works best for them.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

It doesnt hurt my incentive either though. If im going to recycle it i dont care if its bricked or not.

 

 

The problem here is your argument only works if the unit is already bricked.   The problem is not recycling a "bricked" unit, the problem is taking a perfectly good unit and bricking it thus making recycling the only option.

 

Companies should not be encouraging people to brick and recycle perfectly good products at all,  EVER.     We live in a world that has finite resources, if we keep promoting people buy new (with discounts etc) unnecessarily and recycle their older products in the least efficient way as a condition, then we are doing more harm than good.

 

 

 

 

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

 

At the end of the day. Sonos is giving people the option to recycle it and get a discount. nobody is forced. anyone can look up the pros and cons and see what works best for them.

No they aren't, what sono's are doing is incentivizing (with a discount) the preventing a unit from being sold or reused without any attempt to ensure it is recycled.

 

Nothing in what Sonos are doing ensures recycling occurs but by contrast it does insure the best two ways to recycle can't be done. 

 

How does bricking a perfectly good unit ensure it gets recycled?

 

how does offering a 30% discount on a new device ensure recycling of the old one takes place? 

 

The answer is neither do. And that is the problem. it does not promote recycling, it does not even incentivize it.

[RonnieOP]

25 minutes ago, mr moose said:

No they aren't, what sono's are doing is incentivizing (with a discount) the preventing a unit from being sold or reused without any attempt to ensure it is recycled.

 

Nothing in what Sonos are doing ensures recycling occurs but by contrast it does insure the best two ways to recycle can't be done. 

 

How does bricking a perfectly good unit ensure it gets recycled?

 

how does offering a 30% discount on a new device ensure recycling of the old one takes place? 

 

The answer is neither do. And that is the problem. it does not promote recycling, it does not even incentivize it.

I dont know what they do with recycled sonos products. Do you?

 

If the bricked units are used to make other products then hows that bad? that means instead of having to harvest more materials from the earth they can just reuse whats already been taken.

 

Again this is an option nothing more. You can disagree with it. thats fine. They are not forcing you to do it. If you would rather sale it and have someone else use it for a while and then they toss it in the trash thats fine. In that case the item got more use but still ended up in a land fill. Maybe that person recycled it. maybe they sold it to someone who could fix it. we dont know.

 

again this is an option. nothing more. an option that potentially gives someone a reason to recycle when they otherwise might not. Now you could say they probably wouldve recycled it anyway but neither of us know that.

 

If you think there isnt people out there that will buy something new and toss out the old product even though its perfectly good then you are just lying to yourself on that one.

 

nothing being said has shown me an reason to bash sonos for giving people an option that they in no way have to take. Dont like the option? dont take it. Simple as that.

[mr moose]

57 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

I dont know what they do with recycled sonos products. Do you?

 

If the bricked units are used to make other products then hows that bad? that means instead of having to harvest more materials from the earth they can just reuse whats already been taken.

Because it is exceedingly less efficient to recycle conventionally than it is to reuse the product either through repair or resale.  That makes it worse, it is unnecessarily reducing the number of recycling options from 3 down to 1 and removes the best 2 options.   It does not guarantee anything will be recycled and only ensures what can be recycled is recycled in the least efficient way possible.    I notice you keep dodging this point.

 

57 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Again this is an option nothing more. You can disagree with it. thats fine. They are not forcing you to do it. If you would rather sale it and have someone else use it for a while and then they toss it in the trash thats fine. In that case the item got more use but still ended up in a land fill. Maybe that person recycled it. maybe they sold it to someone who could fix it. we dont know.

 

again this is an option. nothing more. an option that potentially gives someone a reason to recycle when they otherwise might not. Now you could say they probably wouldve recycled it anyway but neither of us know that.

 

If you think there isnt people out there that will buy something new and toss out the old product even though its perfectly good then you are just lying to yourself on that one.

 

nothing being said has shown me an reason to bash sonos for giving people an option that they in no way have to take. Dont like the option? dont take it. Simple as that.

 

You keep calling it an option, but you are assuming that being option equals not having negative effects.   If it is only an option and isn't bad then answer the 2 questions I asked:

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

How does bricking a perfectly good unit ensure it gets recycled?

 

how does offering a 30% discount on a new device ensure recycling of the old one takes place? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thaldor]

2 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

-snip-

The problem is Sonos isn't giving people 30% discount from recycling Sonos speakers. They are giving 30% discount from bricking Sonos speakers.

 

I would guess if your Sonos speaker is already broken and you cannot connect to it and/or it cannot phone home, you cannot brick it and so you cannot get the 30% discount. So, to get 30% discount you must deliberately break a working speaker to get 30% discount.

 

Things would be a lot different if it was that consumer must provide proof that they have recycled Sonos speaker (receipt from recycling center, receipt from selling or others) to get the 30% discount. Then clearly Sonos was inciting people to recycle their speakers but that isn't the case at all.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

If someones taking it to a recycling center why would they care if its bricked?

 

.

Here in the EU a lot of electronics that are taken to recycling centres gets re-sold. Whether working or not, if it can easily be repaired there is an industry that takes used electronics and refurbishes them. This is good for the environment, unless you have a Sonos device that is bricked artificially as it can no longer be repaired.

 

 

[TechyBen]

16 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

The link you provided clearly says they will pay for the consumer to ship it to them to recycle. " customers are welcome to ship it back to Sonos at our expense with prepaid labels."

 

And if someone decided to toss it in a landfill instead of recycle it then you need to complain about the person dumping it in a landfill. not the company telling you to recycle it.

 

If i dump used motor oil in the yard you wouldnt blame castrol...youd blame me.

You would if castrol remotely brick your car for a discount. See Australia where many cars get left in ditches and pollute the environment, because the cost/effort of recycling is too high.

[TechyBen]

14 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

I dont know what they do with recycled sonos products. Do you?

 

If the bricked units are used to make other products then hows that bad? that means instead of having to harvest more materials from the earth they can just reuse whats already been taken.

 

Again this is an option nothing more. You can disagree with it. thats fine. They are not forcing you to do it. If you would rather sale it and have someone else use it for a while and then they toss it in the trash thats fine. In that case the item got more use but still ended up in a land fill. Maybe that person recycled it. maybe they sold it to someone who could fix it. we dont know.

 

again this is an option. nothing more. an option that potentially gives someone a reason to recycle when they otherwise might not. Now you could say they probably wouldve recycled it anyway but neither of us know that.

 

If you think there isnt people out there that will buy something new and toss out the old product even though its perfectly good then you are just lying to yourself on that one.

 

nothing being said has shown me an reason to bash sonos for giving people an option that they in no way have to take. Dont like the option? dont take it. Simple as that.

If I give people the "option" to punch you in the face for a nickel, why have a problem with it? It's *only* an option, right?

[Sauron]

14 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

If the bricked units are used to make other products then hows that bad?

It's bad because it's incredibly inefficient compared to reusing a perfectly working product. Sonos here is encouraging you to recycle it instead of reselling it or giving it away, which is better for the environment and for whomever gets it.

[RonnieOP]

13 hours ago, mr moose said:

Because it is exceedingly less efficient to recycle conventionally than it is to reuse the product either through repair or resale.  That makes it worse, it is unnecessarily reducing the number of recycling options from 3 down to 1 and removes the best 2 options.   It does not guarantee anything will be recycled and only ensures what can be recycled is recycled in the least efficient way possible.    I notice you keep dodging this point.

 

 

You keep calling it an option, but you are assuming that being option equals not having negative effects.   If it is only an option and isn't bad then answer the 2 questions I asked:

 

 

 

 

For your two questions its basically dependant on the person with the device. They can send it in for free or recycle it like they are asked to. Thats on the user. Not Sonos.

 

I keep saying its an option because it is. I never said it was the best option. Its not but its still an option.

 

Its better then someone tossing it into a landfill is it not?

 

So sonos gives people an option that they dont have to take....and your upset with sonos? Because its not the best option?? No its not. But its also not the worse and again its not mandatory.

 

So theres no valid reason to bash Sonos over when they are not forcing you to do anything you dont like.

 

 

[RonnieOP]

16 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

If I give people the "option" to punch you in the face for a nickel, why have a problem with it? It's *only* an option, right?

You cant be this dumb can you?

 

Your comparing an option to recycle something to physically adsaulting someone 

 

And you thought you were making a good point here?

[RonnieOP]

22 minutes ago, Sauron said:

It's bad because it's incredibly inefficient compared to reusing a perfectly working product. Sonos here is encouraging you to recycle it instead of reselling it or giving it away, which is better for the environment and for whomever gets it.

What if the person with the speaker doesnt want to feal with the hassle or selling it or giving it away?

 

So this gives them an option to recycle it and get a discount. 

 

Or they can just toss it in the trash or recycle it without the discount.

 

These arguments only work if everyone does the most effeceint options all the time. They dont. Not everyone is going to repair it or sell it. Alot of people will toss it. 

 

Sonos gives people an option to recycle it for a discount. Its def not the best option for most people. But its better then someone tossing it in the landfill. Which does happen. All the time. 

 

You can go dumpster diving and find perfectly working products that not only still work but couldve atleast been recycled.

[Curious Pineapple]

Snap your phone in half and I'll give you a good deal on a new one. Of course, you need to prove that the phone works before snapping it. If it's broken then the offer is withdrawn.

[ARikozuM]

I don't like this. This is upending reuse and reduce. I would rather they give the 30% discount and then an additional 20% when they receive the "recycled" speaker. Otherwise, they are leaving a lot of the speaker's components to be lost during the recycle process. 

[Sauron]

7 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

What if the person with the speaker doesnt want to feal with the hassle or selling it or giving it away?

Then Sonos could offer to do that themselves if they gave a shit about the environment.

8 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Or they can just toss it in the trash or recycle it without the discount.

At least they don't get a prize for being wasteful.

8 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

These arguments only work if everyone does the most effeceint options all the time. They dont. Not everyone is going to repair it or sell it. Alot of people will toss it. 

No, your argument doesn't work because all of this would apply even if Sonos didn't ask you to brick it. Again, if Sonos had asked people to return it so Sonos could sell it and given them a discount I would have no problem with it. But no, Sonos asks them to demonstrably break it to make sure it's no longer usable.

[RonnieOP]

6 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Then Sonos could offer to do that themselves if they gave a shit about the environment.

At least they don't get a prize for being wasteful.

No, your argument doesn't work because all of this would apply even if Sonos didn't ask you to brick it. Again, if Sonos had asked people to return it so Sonos could sell it and given them a discount I would have no problem with it. But no, Sonos asks them to demonstrably break it to make sure it's no longer usable.

Sonos does offer to pay for shipping for them to recycle it.

 

The bricking part is only to stop people from abusing the system. Thats not a sonos exclusive issue. Plenty of companies ask you to destroy the product and send them pictures during RMAs and recalls.

 

I dont like that they do that. But i know why they do it and its because theres alot of assholes out there that will lie and abuse the system.

 

Again your argument only works if someone is willing to sell or repair it. Which not everyone is 

 

So whats worse.

 

A person tossing it in the trash

Or

A person bricking it and sending it to be recycled?

 

Obv the second option isnt the most wasteful one 

 

Again. Nobody is saying that its the best option. But not everyone is willing to do the best option.

 

This is basically a solution for the people who would normally just toss it in a landfill.

 

And if you dont like the idea of bricking it and recycling it....your not forced to.

 

 

[Curious Pineapple]

Just now, RonnieOP said:

The bricking part is only to stop people from abusing the system. Thats not a sonos exclusive issue. Plenty of companies ask you to destroy the product and send them pictures during RMAs and recalls.

Well yeh, if the product is fatally flawed and shouldn't be used then destroying it so it can't casue damage or danger is perfectly acceptable. If it's faulty and isn't worth the expendature of returning it, then asking the customer to boop it with a hammer is fine too. If you want to renew your phone contract and your network says no renewal discount unless you turn up to a store and snap it in half over a desk, where's the "environmentally friendly" thinking in that?

[Sauron]

1 minute ago, RonnieOP said:

Sonos does offer to pay for shipping for them to recycle it.

If you break it first.

1 minute ago, RonnieOP said:

The bricking part is only to stop people from abusing the system. Thats not a sonos exclusive issue. Plenty of companies ask you to destroy the product and send them pictures during RMAs and recalls.

And it's stupid. Tell me, how could you "abuse" this system? Perhaps by reselling or reusing the item, which is what you should be doing in the first place?

2 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Again your argument only works if someone is willing to sell or repair it. Which not everyone is 

Sonos could resell them. How many times do I need to repeat this simple concept for you to grasp it?

3 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

And if you dont like the idea of bricking it and recycling it....your not forced to.

I don't care if I'm forced to, I don't want anyone to do it because it's wasteful and hurts everyone. Therefore I don't want Sonos to encourage it.

 

You could use the "you're not forced to" argument to defend almost anything... "Sonos is giving a discount to people who killed someone, but hey, it's just an option, you aren't forced to kill anyone if you don't like the idea!" <- I bet suddenly that doesn't sound as reasonable, does it? Maybe consider that actions can have consequences beyond the person enacting them?

[RonnieOP]

30 minutes ago, Sauron said:

If you break it first.

And it's stupid. Tell me, how could you "abuse" this system? Perhaps by reselling or reusing the item, which is what you should be doing in the first place?

Sonos could resell them. How many times do I need to repeat this simple concept for you to grasp it?

I don't care if I'm forced to, I don't want anyone to do it because it's wasteful and hurts everyone. Therefore I don't want Sonos to encourage it.

 

You could use the "you're not forced to" argument to defend almost anything... "Sonos is giving a discount to people who killed someone, but hey, it's just an option, you aren't forced to kill anyone if you don't like the idea!" <- I bet suddenly that doesn't sound as reasonable, does it? Maybe consider that actions can have consequences beyond the person enacting them?

How could someone abuse the system? Really? They want it bricked to make sure you arent just saying you recycled it to get the discount. Same with a lot of RMAs and recalls. 

 

And comparing murder to recycling is just asinine. I have no clue how you typed that statement out and thought you had something valid.

 

What are the consequences to this? That the used sonos market is going to have less supply?? Dear god...how horrible is that! Cant someone think of the children?!?! Speakers are being recycled instea od being sold on the used market!!

 

You seem to be under the impression that because you are willing to hop on CL or ebay and sell your old gear that everyone is. Thats not the case. 

So if a person isnt willing to go through that hassle (which alot of people dont want to) then here they have an incentive to recycle instead of throwing it in the landfill.

 

It gives an incentive to recycle. Simple as that. Not forced in any way.

 

And since its 100% optional. It does zero harm. If only one person takes the offer instead of tossing it in the trash then they helped the environment. 

 

Your argument only works if everyone who takes part in this offer wouldve otherwise sold the speaker or repaired. You can not know that to be fact. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kilrah]

5 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

What are the consequences to this? That the used sonos market is going to have less supply??

No, that it encourages throwing away perfectly good equipment.

 

5 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

they have an incentive to recycle instead of throwing it in the landfill.

That doesn't work since there's no check that it's recycled, the only check that is implemented is that it won't end up in the 2nd hand market, hence the critics. People who would have thrown it in the landfill will still do so, just pocket 30% in the way.

 

  

5 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

And since its 100% optional. It does zero harm. If only one person takes the offer instead of tossing it in the trash then they helped the environment. 

Still, it's encouraging the wrong thing, and we know how easily it is for people to choose the wrong thing already.

[RonnieOP]

5 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

No, that it encourages throwing away perfectly good equipment.

 

That doesn't work since there's no check that it's recycled, the only check that is implemented is that it won't end up in the 2nd hand market, hence the critics. People who would have thrown it in the landfill will still do so, just pocket 30% in the way.

 

  

Still, it's encouraging the wrong thing, and we know how easily it is for people to choose the wrong thing already.

Ill agree i think they should have a better solution to make sure its recycled. But idk how that would be done since alot of recycling centers dont give you an itemized receipt for what you bring them (esp free centers).

 

"Encouraging the wrong thing" that argument doesnt work unless you know for a fact that a person who took the offer would otherwise have done the right thing. If someone is willing to brick a sonos speaker for a 30% discount do you really think they were going to go through the hassle of selling it (where they could get more money?). Obv not. 

 

If someones taking this very lukewarm offer then id imagine they had no interest in trying to sell it. Hell this offer could help it from going straight in a landfill for those people.

 

 

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Ill agree i think they should have a better solution to make sure its recycled. But idk how that would be done since alot of recycling centers dont give you an itemized receipt for what you bring them (esp free centers).

 

"Encouraging the wrong thing" that argument doesnt work unless you know for a fact that a person who took the offer would otherwise have done the right thing. If someone is willing to brick a sonos speaker for a 30% discount do you really think they were going to go through the hassle of selling it (where they could get more money?). Obv not. 

 

If someones taking this very lukewarm offer then id imagine they had no interest in trying to sell it. Hell this offer could help it from going straight in a landfill for those people.

 

 

I’ve already mentioned a number of better solutions, such as working with local charities who can simply take the devices and sell them on, and then give a discount code to the person who donated the unit to them. There are far more charity shops in most parts of the world than recycling centres. It is a simple way, and one of a few. The fact is plain and simple, Sonos want to remove as many older products from the market place as possible to help their sales of new. 
 

Bricking the device despite in many parts of the world offering a free returns label is not environmentally friendly either. The unit needs to be packaged, and shipped which considering it is going to be destroyed is extremely wasteful. Not from just the point of view of destroying a perfectly good unit for profit reasons, but the carbon generated from transport often quite a distance, and from the extra packaging needed. Sonos would much prefer the destroyed unit was dumped locally and they don’t care how that is done.

 

The fact of the matter is, we are in a wasteful society and that needs to change if there is any chance of a future for our race. We need to stop being a consumerist economy and instead become a service one, where we are proud to make good things that last or can be repaired and reused. 
 

Sonos are rightly being lambasted by many not because of what they are doing,  ur because they are trying to pretend they are being green by what they are doing. If they had simply said “scrap your device for a discount” they would get some flack but they would also get praise for being honest. As it is they have damaged their brand name with a ill thought promotion. If they reacted in a better way, publicly suspending the deal when they realised the poor reaction then they could have rescued it and even turned it to their advantage. They seem unwilling to admit their mistake, or change the deal for the better.

[Thaldor]

1 hour ago, RonnieOP said:

How could someone abuse the system? Really? They want it bricked to make sure you arent just saying you recycled it to get the discount. Same with a lot of RMAs and recalls.

RMAs and recalls are usually different cases because then we talk about dangerous products instead of old products. There is kind of big difference with a completely working speaker rendered broken and things like Samsung Galaxy Note 7 rendered broken because the quite a huge hazard of catching on fire suddenly and violently.

Quote

What are the consequences to this? That the used sonos market is going to have less supply?? Dear god...how horrible is that! Cant someone think of the children?!?! Speakers are being recycled instea od being sold on the used market!!

 

You seem to be under the impression that because you are willing to hop on CL or ebay and sell your old gear that everyone is. Thats not the case. 

So if a person isnt willing to go through that hassle (which alot of people dont want to) then here they have an incentive to recycle instead of throwing it in the landfill.

 

It gives an incentive to recycle. Simple as that. Not forced in any way.

 

And since its 100% optional. It does zero harm. If only one person takes the offer instead of tossing it in the trash then they helped the environment. 

 

Your argument only works if everyone who takes part in this offer wouldve otherwise sold the speaker or repaired. You can not know that to be fact.

As said, Sonos doesn't give one flying fuck about what really happens to a speaker as long as it's one less working speaker on the face of the world. (That they offer the chance to ship the speaker to them is probably only available in EU/parts of it where Sonos could possibly end up  punished really hard from having a campaign where they create possibly hundreds of tons e-waste without any certainty that that e-waste is processed correctly)

 

You do not get discount if your speaker was used to the point that it doesn't work anymore or was any otherway broken. You do not get discount if you were the good guy and recycled or reused the speaker. Only case where you get the discount is when you break a working speaker.

[mr moose]

@RonnieOP  I think at his stage in the debate you either understand the problem but don't want to accept it for whatever reason or you are never going to understand it. 

 

I am not bothering to post in this thread anymore unless you provide new reasoning as to how this is a good thing.