5000 Dollar Apple arcade machine - E-sport oriented Mac rumored for 2020 release

[hishnash]

2 hours ago, BuckGup said:

If Apple allowed anything other than Metal maybe Vulkan that would be assume

I dont think they would bother in many ways metal is better than Vulkan, and they have mature AMD drives for metal, also most game engines out there have metal support already (due to the developers wanting to sell them to mobile gaming studios).

Metal has a few featues that Vulkan could make good use of, these are all focused on reducing the CPU load and reducing the need for a single high clocked cpu core (2 cpu cores at 1.5Ghz uses a lot less power than 1 core at 3Ghz). 

1) Trigger draw calls from the GPU without callbacks to the cpu, this is very usefull if you have any compute tasks you do on the GPU or if you have objects in our scene etc that dont need thier draw calls changed from frame to frame.

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/metal/indirect_command_buffers/encoding_indirect_command_buffers_on_the_cpu

2) Trigger draw calls from any thread and send them directly to the gpu as you trigger them, unlike OpenGL (that only has one thread) or Vulkan/DX12 that can enque tasks on many threads but still needs to use a single thread (in the driver) to send them over to the GPU.

Also metal is a Compute API (think openCL / CUDA / RoCom) so its based on C++ as such it is much more expressive (and feature ritch) when writing shader/compute code compared to the pure display solutions like OpenGL, DX11 etc.

[hishnash]

5 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

That would be a requirement.  If their equpment isn’t at least equal they can’t get anywhere at all.  With equal equipment and a gigantic pile of money they could get somewhere.  If they’ve got actually better equipment they could conceivably kick ass.   If they’re behind though they’re toast.

Why would they fix the openGL driver when they would just tell game devs (they have more money than any console maker) to use metal.

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, hishnash said:

Why would they fix the openGL driver when they would just tell game devs (they have more money than any console maker) to use metal.

I was speaking generally.  If they’ve got out of date or badly optimized stuff (of any sort) be it OpenGL or some mouse driver, or whatever, that is used by a game that is used in esports they would need to fix it somehow.  If an esports title uses OpenGL and not a different system they would be constrained unless the could pressure the title maker to change to suit them.  If the title maker refuses they probably wouldn’t be able to do a whole lot except change their own stuff to fit the parameters.

My point was that they cannot allow a competitive disadvantage they can do something about within the area they are competing. For example, If they can’t force a change from OpenGL, which according to the poster they are behind in, and their code for OpenGL is old or bad, OpenGL would have to be updated.  It’s just an example though.  There is all this talk of Vulkan and metal.  I don’t know what Apple is using at the moment and I don’t know what devs for individual games are using.  I’m not sure it matters specifically for these purposes.  For purposes of esports They’re software system parts that make a game behave better or not.  Their machine would have to be just as fast and responsive (preferrably moreso) than a competing Machine and they would have to do whatever it took to make that happen.  If that means updating a system like OpenGL because it’s there and being used and they can’t change that then so be it.

[hishnash]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

I was speaking generally.  If they’ve got out of date or badly optimized stuff (of any sort) be it OpenGL or some mouse driver, or whatever, that is used by a game that is used in esports they would need to fix it somehow.  If an esports title uses OpenGL and not a different system they would be constrained unless the could pressure the title maker to change to suit them.  If the title maker refuses they probably wouldn’t be able to do a whole lot except change their own stuff to fit the parameters.

My point was that they cannot allow a competitive disadvantage they can do something about within the area they are competing. For example, If they can’t force a change from OpenGL, which according to the poster they are behind in, and their code for OpenGL is old or bad, OpenGL would have to be updated.  It’s just an example though.  There is all this talk of Vulkan and metal.  I don’t know what Apple is using at the moment and I don’t know what devs for individual games are using.  I’m not sure it matters specifically for these purposes.  For purposes of esports They’re software system parts that make a game behave better or not.  Their machine would have to be just as fast and responsive (preferrably moreso) than a competing Machine and they would have to do whatever it took to make that happen.  If that means updating a system like OpenGL because it’s there and being used and they can’t change that then so be it.

 

If apple wanted to make a desktop gaming experience they would just throw money at it (like console makers) apple have more than anyone else. they would just buyout studios to make games using Metal. In the end most modern engines actually already support metal (since its your only option for mobile iOS gaming) so unless the studio is using their own engine its more of a migration task than a re-write task.

If apple `update` there OpenGL implementation it will be like the moltenVK implementation (in fact the current OpenGL implementation works like this). Basicly a GPU compute kernel running on the gpu that takes the OpenGL commands and translates them into metal commands then executes them, this is paired with a cpu side component for help with the encoding and copying of memory to and from the GPU. The big difference to other drivers is most of the logic ends up running on the GPU in these systems, take a look at dxvk for a good example of this in vulkan running DX11. 

[Bombastinator]

22 minutes ago, hishnash said:

 

If apple wanted to make a desktop gaming experience they would just throw money at it (like console makers) apple have more than anyone else. they would just buyout studios to make games using Metal. In the end most modern engines actually already support metal (since its your only option for mobile iOS gaming) so unless the studio is using their own engine its more of a migration task than a re-write task.

If apple `update` there OpenGL implementation it will be like the moltenVK implementation (in fact the current OpenGL implementation works like this). Basicly a GPU compute kernel running on the gpu that takes the OpenGL commands and translates them into metal commands then executes them, this is paired with a cpu side component for help with the encoding and copying of memory to and from the GPU. The big difference to other drivers is most of the logic ends up running on the GPU in these systems, take a look at dxvk for a good example of this in vulkan running DX11. 

If Apple has more money than anyone else this really could be a Ford v. Ferrari thing.  That was Fords advantage.  They spent Ferrari to death.   It also made their cars a lot better which would be handy for us commuting level computer drivers.

 

”win on Sunday sell on Monday” is a bromide left over from horse racing before there were even cars.  That gigantic lighted Apple logo the company used for years might come in real handy.  They’re going to have to make it stick out against all that RGB.  I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the only thing that lights on these new machines.  They may have to move it’s location based on arena camera angles though.  And of course it’s going to have to look enough like the stuff they’re selling on Monday to make that stuff sell too.

[hishnash]

21 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

If Apple has more money than anyone else this really could be a Ford v. Ferrari thing.  That was Fords advantage.  They spent Ferrari to death.   It also made their cars a lot better which would be handy for us commuting level computer drivers.

 

”win on Sunday sell on Monday” is a bromide left over from horse racing before there were even cars.  That gigantic lighted Apple logo the company used for years might come in real handy.  They’re going to have to make it stick out against all that RGB.  I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the only thing that lights on these new machines.  They may have to move it’s location based on arena camera angles though.  And of course it’s going to have to look enough like the stuff they’re selling on Monday to make that stuff sell too.

Yer, the question is does apple think there is much money in gamers. 

If they wanted to they could make a very nice looking gaming rig, given how much effort they put into making the internals look nice even for systems that are glued shut (iMac) they could make some realy nice matt-black system. Hell if they realy feel people need RGB then they could always bring back the old apple logo just for trols.

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

Yer, the question is does apple think there is much money in gamers. 

If they wanted to they could make a very nice looking gaming rig, given how much effort they put into making the internals look nice even for systems that are glued shut (iMac) they could make some realy nice matt-black system. Hell if they realy feel people need RGB then they could always bring back the old apple logo just for trols.

It’s not whether they think there’s money in gamers, much less pro gamers, it’s more a question of could they make money using the renowned they gain from winning esports tournaments?

Once upon a time long long ago the apple2e beat the trs80 to death, and became the most popular home computer on earth.  it did it using the fact that it played games better.  It was color and it had better graphics.  It was a bear to program, it was expensive, and fragile and annoying, and almost impossible to do homework on.  Schools often wouldn’t even use them.  It was also the machine every kid would rather have.  What Apple wants is sales and market share and it’s having trouble getting them anymore.  This might be a path.

 

Im reminded of that head to head video editing contest on LTT a bit ago where the cute looking girl with a stuffed dog toy trounced a much taller man with 4 keyboards and a PC.  She did win the quality test but the money shot was her mentioning that she had basically finished in half the time the PC editor did.  While sounding cheerful,  eating snacks, and taking frequent potty breaks.  That was some of the most powerful apple promotion I have ever seen.  Actually beat the original Macintosh ad imho.  Company owners buy hardware, and they also pay staff.  By the hour.  The woman did the job in arguably half the man hours.  If that mac cost 4 times what that PC did the difference would be paid off in a few months or less of salary savings.  

[realpetertdm]

Prediction: the base model will cost $5000, and will have an i5, 5500 XT, and 8 gigs of RAM.

[dizmo]

9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

They don’t make it right now anyway.  They’ve done it before though.  They even did Some for the Mac pros already.

They made GPUs, yes, but if AMD had something powerful, they would have released it already, instead of losing out entirely on that portion of the market.

[hishnash]

10 minutes ago, dizmo said:

They made GPUs, yes, but if AMD had something powerful, they would have released it already, instead of losing out entirely on that portion of the market.

Apple is a powerfull company and in AMDs gpu side will be a good proportion of AMDs revenue. If apple switched to Zen apple would be a large proportion of AMDs total revenue as well. Apple hold some very powerfull cards if they wanted to ask AMD to hold of for 3 months.

[captain_to_fire]

12 hours ago, williamcll said:

A new rumor have appeared that Apple may be pushing harder to get more gamers to opt for the Macintosh instead of Windows or Consoles.

Do you have a better source? This sounds like a tech fan fiction written by Bloomberg tech journalists. 

[hishnash]

1 hour ago, captain_to_fire said:

Do you have a better source? This sounds like a tech fan fiction written by Bloomberg tech journalists. 

Not even Bloomberg this looks like a pure wccftech `story` 

[Commodus]

7 hours ago, captain_to_fire said:

Do you have a better source? This sounds like a tech fan fiction written by Bloomberg tech journalists. 

The irony of saying this is that Bloomberg's Apple-focused reporter (Mark Gurman) is legendary for having accurate sources... doesn't change the whole spy chip mess, but on Apple news you can trust Bloomberg.  If Gurman corroborated this, it'd get much more credibility... but his silence says a lot about how sketchy this is.

[captain_to_fire]

29 minutes ago, Commodus said:

but his silence says a lot about how sketchy this is.

Reminds me of the rumor where Apple is switching to the Chromium rendering engine but was debunked by an Apple engineer working on WebKit. I’m glad no one has made a tech news post about it. 

 

[Delicious Cake]

I'd certainly hope that a Radeon VII is better than a 2080 Ti in compute-type loads, considering the VII is conceptually equivalent to the Titan cards - a Quadro/Tesla die that has failed validation.

[Commodus]

58 minutes ago, captain_to_fire said:

Reminds me of the rumor where Apple is switching to the Chromium rendering engine but was debunked by an Apple engineer working on WebKit. I’m glad no one has made a tech news post about it. 

 

Most definitely.  I've come to learn that there are varying degrees of Apple rumors.  There are absolute locks, likely but not certain, total toss-ups... and then the "don't believe it for one second" junk like this.

[The1Dickens]

18 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Company racing is not something that is considered a good thing to merely dip ones toe into.

As the saying goes, if you want to make a million in racing, start with 10 million. Though, auto-racing and PC gaming are at opposite ends of the spectrum due to auto-racing being the test bed for new technology, whereas esports is using already tested and released tech.

 

In reality, running on the thought that this is true, if Apple is really trying to jump in to the "gaming/esports" waters, they've already been working on some way to make the transition easy for gamers/developers. The towers you see at esports competitions, though, are not $5K machines. They aren't custom-looped water cooling setups. The machines for big competitions are exactly the same, and provided to the players at the event, by the event sponsors. Actually, Apple has a pretty good chance of digging into the scene with a consistently steady system, even if it isn't a 2080Ti, because most of the games played in competitions don't even need the 2080Ti, or even the 2080. And since they end up all being set the same, nobody is going to have an advantage of better hardware, more fps, quicker polling keyboard/mouse, more colors on the display, etc. It ends up boiling down to player performance.

 

Apple's biggest hurdle is going to be itself. The brand image is not one of 'fun'. When I think of Apple, I imagine a sterile, white room with large windows, clean lines, simple and elegant, minimalist, reserved, order. How are they going to step into the world of gaudy, loud, colorful, complex shapes, and anarchy? If this ends up being an Apple sub-brand, though, it may simply end up winning over customers who are tired of the current aesthetics of 'gaming' products.

[Bombastinator]

Depends on the division.  Some auto racing is completely regulated just like what you describe.  NASCAR is famous for being that way.  They still use carburetors.  Even the outer shell of the vehicle is regulated heavily.  Some isn’t though.  

[Brooksie359]

On 12/28/2019 at 1:18 PM, DrMacintosh said:

Well the idea is that more developers would start making games for the Mac. As for why anyone would choose it, just ask all the people that choose an iPhone over anything else. Apple has distinguished themselves on software. 

 

If I could get a consumer grade Mac tower, I would much rather be using that than my current machine even though I built it for a significantly better value proposition than this theoretical Mac could. 

Alot of people who get into esports dont have a ton of money and would want the most performance for their dollar to try and stay competitive. Mac is obviously not an option to those people. I mean while I do think they could get some people to switch if they had better compatibility with games I doubt it would be a huge success unless it was price competitive with something like razer. I guess I would expect them to not get serious esports players to use them but maybe casual people with lots of money. 

[Brooksie359]

13 hours ago, The1Dickens said:

As the saying goes, if you want to make a million in racing, start with 10 million. Though, auto-racing and PC gaming are at opposite ends of the spectrum due to auto-racing being the test bed for new technology, whereas esports is using already tested and released tech.

 

In reality, running on the thought that this is true, if Apple is really trying to jump in to the "gaming/esports" waters, they've already been working on some way to make the transition easy for gamers/developers. The towers you see at esports competitions, though, are not $5K machines. They aren't custom-looped water cooling setups. The machines for big competitions are exactly the same, and provided to the players at the event, by the event sponsors. Actually, Apple has a pretty good chance of digging into the scene with a consistently steady system, even if it isn't a 2080Ti, because most of the games played in competitions don't even need the 2080Ti, or even the 2080. And since they end up all being set the same, nobody is going to have an advantage of better hardware, more fps, quicker polling keyboard/mouse, more colors on the display, etc. It ends up boiling down to player performance.

 

Apple's biggest hurdle is going to be itself. The brand image is not one of 'fun'. When I think of Apple, I imagine a sterile, white room with large windows, clean lines, simple and elegant, minimalist, reserved, order. How are they going to step into the world of gaudy, loud, colorful, complex shapes, and anarchy? If this ends up being an Apple sub-brand, though, it may simply end up winning over customers who are tired of the current aesthetics of 'gaming' products.

They aren't just going to disregard performance just because everyone had the same setup and it should be an equal playing field. They are going to want to run hardware that is fast enough to hit those important fps thresholds that way they can really show off the individual players talents. If it can't hit above 240 fps then I don't think alot of places will use it for fps esports. 

[AndreiArgeanu]

19 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

The Radeon VII, and iirc at times, the XT can match the 2080, just not the Super variant.  As for the 2080 Ti, in gaming no, but the VII can beat it in productivity.

The xt can not really match the 2080 as far as I know. Probably the only way the rx 5700 xt would have a fighting chance would be watercooling and overclocking it. 

 

[Brooksie359]

6 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

1)  Nobody uses that site anymore after their last update after they started to show a bias.

 

2)  I believe it was like 1 or 2 games in a GN bench where it matched, or got rather close. I could be wrong.   But, the VII is more likely to.

Yeah I think it was battlefield V and ome other game that heavily favors AMD but those are extreme outliers tbh. For the most part the XT performs a fair bit below the 2080. 

[Bombastinator]

9 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

1)  Nobody uses that site anymore after their last update after they started to show a bias.

 

2)  I believe it was like 1 or 2 games in a GN bench where it matched, or got rather close. I could be wrong.   But, the VII is more likely to.

I would say viewing compilation numbers for the site are misleading.  It still has data no other site has.  It’s days of being a definitive be all end all are perhaps gone though.  It’s useful for seeing how people are using different hardware. 

[Bombastinator]

32 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

That use to be true, but they got a lot of crap for showing bias towards Intel and changing how their formulas work.  There's a thread on here about it.

 

I’m including that. It’s still not useless.  The problem is that their compliation metric isn’t useful.

it’s not very useful for saying “this card is faster that that one” or “this cpu is faster than that one”.  It is useful for seeing what people are doing with various CPUs.  Their raw data is useful.  Their derivations aren’t trustable as being accurate though.

[Bombastinator]

The issue seems to be a point that only heavily equipment regulated esports events exist and there are basically no actual factory teams.  The. Latter strikes me as unlikely.  That the majority of teams are not factory teams strikes me as highly likely though.  This also explains such BS as gaming socks and the whole “just add ‘gaming’ to anything, throw a bright color on it and it sells for more” phenomena.  Things that are actually useful are barred but people look for them anyway.