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WTF is nest? a rant about americentrism in tech and internet in general

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13 minutes ago, JZStudios said:

I can probably snag a used one for ~$6k.

But when you don't have money it's stupid as hell to go in for $20k on a car when you can't fix your house so it's warm in the winter.

I meant 2-4 years old, CPO, with a warranty, as most people I know can't/won't do their own maintenance. Also, these people likely don't own where they live, and nobody is going to fix up a rental unit (that isn't the owner) because of the can of worms that opens up. And I expect people will buy a car before they buy a house, especially in California.


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3 hours ago, JZStudios said:

...That doesn't improve the quality of anyone's life. It's not hard to use imperial, and every engineer I know is fluent in imperial and metric, along with decimal conversions and drill charts.

The hell it wouldn't. People wouldn't need two sets of tools, scales, etc. With just one system, you wouldn't be dealing with conversions between the two. Also the math between sizes in metric is simple; just move the decimal. I'm fluent in both Imperial and metric but life would be a lot simpler if I had to deal with only metric. The only reason we have both here is because people are too lazy to learn metric (why, I don't know; it's cottonpickin' simple) and we are getting so many products from overseas where the metric system is used exclusively. It's long past time we joined the rest of the world. Granted, it will take decades to phase out the Imperial system but it has to start somewhere and it's long overdue!


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One has to be proactive, not reactive, to ensure the safety of one's data so backup your data! And RAID is NOT a backup!

 

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6 hours ago, The1Dickens said:

Just to run off on this tangent a bit...

 

Maybe it's because I'm in California, but owning a BMW is not a rich person thing. Used ones can be had for under 20K, and on a 6-year payment plan (depending on credit), it turns out to probably 400-ish per month. Heck, even new entry level models start as low as 35K. Though, they do get up there in price, simply having a BMW isn't an indicator of wealth. Actually, you'd think the rich person was the one driving the Plymouth Duster with the 50-series tires in the back, blower poking out of the hood, and the custom built 440 big block with a nasty cam in it, rumbling along so loud you can feel the bark as it starts up. Or the frame-off, rotisserie restoration of the '64.5 Mustang A Code, factory reborn down to the paint drips to match how it would have looked rolling off the factory floor in 1964. Or the all original Model T complete with wooden wheels. It's the people with evidently plenty of disposable income, not the one who owns a single BMW as their daily driver.

That seems like a California thing, but idk. I don't see the point in buying a used BMW for 20K, much less on a payment plan, you're already quite wealthy if you're buying a used BMW and you can keep up with the more expensive maintenance, as opposed to getting a brand new or used with low mileage "boring" Toyota or Honda for around the same price.

I'd rather have a classic car if I had the extra money to spend, but nothing with factory matched paint or a supercharger, just something upgraded from the original points ignition so it's reliable enough that it could be driven, paint can get extremely expensive and pristine matched paint would keep me from actually driving it.

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2 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

That seems like a California thing, but idk. I don't see the point in buying a used BMW for 20K, much less on a payment plan, you're already quite wealthy if you're buying a used BMW and you can keep up with the more expensive maintenance, as opposed to getting a brand new or used with low mileage "boring" Toyota or Honda for around the same price.

I'd rather have a classic car if I had the extra money to spend, but nothing with factory matched paint or a supercharger, just something upgraded from the original points ignition so it's reliable enough that it could be driven, paint can get extremely expensive and pristine matched paint would keep me from actually driving it.

I don't think it's a California thing. I live in North Alabama and a very similar thing with Mercedes over here goes on, where a lot of people drive base-model GLA 250s and C-classes. Then again, "basic bitch" Chargers (base models) are very common over here, too, so seeing GLA 250s also isn't that ridiculous.

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9 hours ago, The1Dickens said:

Just to run off on this tangent a bit...

 

Maybe it's because I'm in California, but owning a BMW is not a rich person thing. Used ones can be had for under 20K, and on a 6-year payment plan (depending on credit), it turns out to probably 400-ish per month. Heck, even new entry level models start as low as 35K. Though, they do get up there in price, simply having a BMW isn't an indicator of wealth. Actually, you'd think the rich person was the one driving the Plymouth Duster with the 50-series tires in the back, blower poking out of the hood, and the custom built 440 big block with a nasty cam in it, rumbling along so loud you can feel the bark as it starts up. Or the frame-off, rotisserie restoration of the '64.5 Mustang A Code, factory reborn down to the paint drips to match how it would have looked rolling off the factory floor in 1964. Or the all original Model T complete with wooden wheels. It's the people with evidently plenty of disposable income, not the one who owns a single BMW as their daily driver.

well being able to afford to keep them on the road. That is the well off person thing lol

 

Although admittedly some generations and Model years are better than others so what's true for one year or generation of a model may not be true for the next. That being said, owning a car isn't cheap in general lol

My car likely shares some parts with a US model of car it's related to but because Saab doesn't exist anymore and while my model the 9-3 was a pretty good sales hit for Saab it still isn't a whole lot of cars so well let's just say there are somethings I've read on my car that are wayyyy more expensive than they are on a lot of regular cars.


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3 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

The hell it wouldn't. People wouldn't need two sets of tools, scales, etc. With just one system, you wouldn't be dealing with conversions between the two.

That's a stupid reason. I spend a lot of time with engineers of various ilks, and have spent plenty of time in machine shops, garages, and workshops making all sorts of things and using one or the other (Or both, but not generally) is not difficult. I don't really give a rats ass that a Toyota is in metric and a Ford is imperial. It's not that hard to have 2 sets of wrenches or sets of sockets. You're still going to have 4 or 5 different sets of drills (That are all different sizes, Letter Drills, Number Drills, Metric, Imperial.) It's literally never a problem, and it's also not a problem to have a very common every day typical ass tape measure or straight edge that very easily and clearly has both. Anything digital like a decent (Or hell, even a cheap set) pair of calipers has a single button to switch from metric to imperial. We design and manufacture things in imperial. It's perfectly fine. If we send things to a European customer and they want it metric, we can drill and tap holes for metric, but everything else is still designed around imperial.

 

That's for people that use measurements every day, and it's literally exactly a non-issue. For your average every day person, it makes even less difference because I never see people just talking about converting these things. People will say an object is 6 feet away instead of 2 meters. No one is saying "Well that looks like 72 inches." and then someone else starts shitting their pants because they don't know math. Easy calculation is roughly 3 feet per meter. I've never come across a need where people need to find 7.34 miles in feet in every day life. In fact, most people don't even math, much less convert from imperial systems, or from metric to imperial or vice versa.

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The real reason for the Nest and other devices is......Because 'Merica…..that's why. We put a man on the moon using the length of the Kings nose, the length of his foot and the distance from his nose to the tip of his finger. It just works for us. At one point in our history most of us were from Yurp and other countries over there yet we use our measuring system. My Nest has saved me about 20 percent of my heating bills. My work hours vary so a programmable T-stat isn't really feasible for me. I just jump on my phone and tell the house to get warm for me. I'm old and for many years I had to heat my house with coal in a potbelly stove in the middle of the house.. I live in Appalachia and it's all we had. I killed pigs, cows, chickens squirrels, rabbits and deer. We grew our own corn, tomatoes, beans and then we canned it to use in the winter. We still do that around here.

 

Yes, we're spoiled but most of us are not lazy. We're the most progressive and productive country in the history of the world. Hell, during World War 2 we sold or gave away most of everything that our allies were using. We could build it faster than Germany and Japan could blow it up. We built almost 3000 Liberty ships (big Sucker cargo ships) in 4 years. We were launching three ships every two days. Germany sinks 25 in a month and we'll build 45 more. That's hard to overcome.  Wretched excess. It's in our DNA. I've been around for some 73 years and as an engineer I feel very comfortable with the Metric system but I still prefer to use a cup of flour and a 1/2 cup of milk. 2-4-6-8, I don't want to metricate. We don't have to and no one can make us.

 

As a lifelong sailor I could argue that a Nautical mile is the best way to judge distance. One minute of arc on Earth is one nautical mile. If you'r sailing one nautical mile per hour you are travelling at one knot. Easy Peasy.

 

And what the Heck is this meter or metre stuff. the distance light travels in 1/3000,000,000 seconds, give or take a bit. Who is going to measure that? My stopwatch struggles with hundredths of a second and I can't find where the end of the light is. My eyes must be getting old..

 

Every nation has their little quirks and idiosyncrasies. Please allow us to have ours also. We know that pickup trucks have very bad mileage and they're the #1 selling vehicle in 'Merica. No logic, just excess. It's what we do.  There is no right and wrong. It's just what is right or wrong FOR YOU. 

 

Have a wonderful time in your country but if you ever want to cool down it the summer or warm up when it's cold just hop a plane and come rent an apartment a camper or a motorhome. They're air conditioned. My motorhome has an air conditioner in the cab and two on the roof. I could loan you one. We'll take care of you. It's what we do......for better or worse, but that's another story.

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tech is 'americentrist' as you call it, because most big tech companies are based in the USA.

 

Americans have AC because they live in places that are too hot / cold to be comfortable.

 

Nest supposedly saves you money because people arent smart enough to turn off their heater when leaving the house or going to bed. Also it looks and feels fancy and fun.

 

Americans use the Imperial system because that is what they are used to. And they (think they) are #1, so why change?

 

There, I solved your problems for you.

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7 hours ago, JZStudios said:

That's a stupid reason. I spend a lot of time with engineers of various ilks, and have spent plenty of time in machine shops, garages, and workshops making all sorts of things and using one or the other (Or both, but not generally) is not difficult. I don't really give a rats ass that a Toyota is in metric and a Ford is imperial. It's not that hard to have 2 sets of wrenches or sets of sockets. You're still going to have 4 or 5 different sets of drills (That are all different sizes, Letter Drills, Number Drills, Metric, Imperial.) It's literally never a problem, and it's also not a problem to have a very common every day typical ass tape measure or straight edge that very easily and clearly has both. Anything digital like a decent (Or hell, even a cheap set) pair of calipers has a single button to switch from metric to imperial. We design and manufacture things in imperial. It's perfectly fine. If we send things to a European customer and they want it metric, we can drill and tap holes for metric, but everything else is still designed around imperial.

 

That's for people that use measurements every day, and it's literally exactly a non-issue. For your average every day person, it makes even less difference because I never see people just talking about converting these things. People will say an object is 6 feet away instead of 2 meters. No one is saying "Well that looks like 72 inches." and then someone else starts shitting their pants because they don't know math. Easy calculation is roughly 3 feet per meter. I've never come across a need where people need to find 7.34 miles in feet in every day life. In fact, most people don't even math, much less convert from imperial systems, or from metric to imperial or vice versa.

The only reason we have to have two sets of tools (and that gets expensive in a hurry) and multiple kinds of drill bits (and I have them all; talk about expensive) is people are too stubborn, complacent (like you), and/or resistant to change to allow the metric system to replace the Imperial system. You may used to dealing with different systems (heck, so am I) but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

4 hours ago, maartendc said:

...Americans use the Imperial system because that is what they are used to. And they (think they) are #1, so why change?...

I've already explained several times why we should change. This is just another example of why people here resist the change which is not a good one. And I agree with the comment of Americans thinking they are #1. We are not, otherwise everyone would be using the Imperial system. The world is becoming less dependent on us, which hurts us in export trade, if only because other countries do not want to have to use two systems (nor should they have to). We have become dependent on foreign imports because our industry and R&D have lagged behind the rest of the world, again due to complacency and resistance to change.


Jeannie

 

As long as anyone is oppressed, no one will be safe and free.

One has to be proactive, not reactive, to ensure the safety of one's data so backup your data! And RAID is NOT a backup!

 

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1 hour ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

We are not, otherwise everyone would be using the Imperial system. The world is becoming less dependent on us, which hurts us in export trade, if only because other countries do not want to have to use two systems (nor should they have to

What in the WORLD are you talking about? 

 

The US hasn't manufacturered products like that since the 40s/50s. The only thing remotely close to what you are talking about is the auto industry which we lost to Asia due to long term viability of the product.

 

The US largest exports are airplanes, oil and LNG. How in the world do any of those things have anything to do with resistance to changing completely to the metric system?

 

What do you think the US is producing?

 

It's we don't have an manufacturing industry because of a system of measurements. It's because Asia pays labor pennies on the american dollar.


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This whole thread a long while ago became a game of obfusticated political commentary which is started with an unattributed quote by a right wing commentator and then goes on to bash whatever.  
 

I would say just about every comment in this entire thread beginning with an insult, such as the one above, is one such. “What in the world are you talking about?” Is rush Limbaugh for example.  It goes all the way back to the beginning of the thread though.  Dog whistles et al.


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25 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I would say just about every comment in this entire thread beginning with an insult, such as the one above, is one such. “What in the world are you talking about?” Is rush Limbaugh for example.

Or the comment I was quoting made absolutely no sense so I attempted to refute it. 


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30 minutes ago, Skipple said:

What in the WORLD are you talking about? 

 

The US hasn't manufacturered products like that since the 40s/50s. The only thing remotely close to what you are talking about is the auto industry which we lost to Asia due to long term viability of the product.

 

The US largest exports are airplanes, oil and LNG. How in the world do any of those things have anything to do with resistance to changing completely to the metric system?

 

What do you think the US is producing?

 

It's we don't have an manufacturing industry because of a system of measurements. It's because Asia pays labor pennies on the american dollar.

Why do you think we haven't been manufacturing as much? Asia may be paying pennies on the dollar but Europe seems to be doing fine without being dependent on us while paying living wages (something we are having more and more trouble doing). We are lagging simply because we are so resistant to change, too cheap and/or apathetic to not buy products made with what is essentially slave labor (all though not all cheaper overseas labor is due to underpaying them), etc. Reluctance to ditching the Imperial system is but one reason of many, all stemming from our resistance to changing to keep up with the rest of the world.

 

1 minute ago, Skipple said:

Or the comment I was quoting made absolutely no sense so I attempted to refute it. 

Or you refuse to open your mind to ideas other than  the outdated ones you stubbornly cling to. All your responses (responces to keep you folks on the east side of the pond happy 😉 ) so far have only reinforced what I have been saying about why we should ditch the Imperial system. Open your eyes to what is happening in the entire world, not just you tiny slice of it.


Jeannie

 

As long as anyone is oppressed, no one will be safe and free.

One has to be proactive, not reactive, to ensure the safety of one's data so backup your data! And RAID is NOT a backup!

 

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18 minutes ago, Skipple said:

Or the comment I was quoting made absolutely no sense so I attempted to refute it. 

That’s what I mean by obfusticated.  All of them “could be”. That they’re not could all be coincidence.


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On 12/27/2019 at 1:52 AM, wasab said:

Americans invented internet

But was first implemented (to what we know it as now) by ze Brits ;) 

First to demonstrate packet switching: A Brit

Nationality of the person who invented the "world wide web": Oh look, another British person

 

Maybe hold your horses before you start chanting "US bestest!" :D 


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3 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

The only reason we have to have two sets of tools (and that gets expensive in a hurry) and multiple kinds of drill bits (and I have them all; talk about expensive) is people are too stubborn, complacent (like you), and/or resistant to change to allow the metric system to replace the Imperial system. You may used to dealing with different systems (heck, so am I) but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Incorrect as all hell.

Regardless of whether or not there's only one measurement system there's not a single shop on the planet that only has one set of tools. Hell, there's only 2 or 3 screwdrivers you need for 90% of applications, but there's not a single shop on the planet that only has 3 screwdrivers.

As to drill bits, that's also a dumb argument. I don't know what you do but it sure doesn't sound like engineering and machining or manufacturing. A 4-40 screw for example is an imperial bolt, but a pilot drill for the tap is a 43. Not to mention the absolute need for all of the drill sizes, whether or not you're on a single measurement system. Sure, you can convert them to metric but they aren't going to be the nice round numbers all the dum dums seem to love so much.

You are providing literal non-reasons to switch and pretending like it'll make life easier, when actually it'll be exactly the same at best after all the confusion. I'm in the boat that it's best to have both units and tools because there's a lot more fine grades in imperial than there are in metric with only going primarily full or half steps, and half steps are uncommon.

3 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

I've already explained several times why we should change. This is just another example of why people here resist the change which is not a good one. And I agree with the comment of Americans thinking they are #1. We are not, otherwise everyone would be using the Imperial system. The world is becoming less dependent on us, which hurts us in export trade, if only because other countries do not want to have to use two systems (nor should they have to). We have become dependent on foreign imports because our industry and R&D have lagged behind the rest of the world, again due to complacency and resistance to change.

You literally haven't other than saying it's easier to convert and tool costs, both of which are non issues. You haven't provided a single solid reason other than your "beliefs" that it'll magically make peoples lives easier.

 

1 hour ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Why do you think we haven't been manufacturing as much? Asia may be paying pennies on the dollar but Europe seems to be doing fine without being dependent on us while paying living wages (something we are having more and more trouble doing). We are lagging simply because we are so resistant to change, too cheap and/or apathetic to not buy products made with what is essentially slave labor (all though not all cheaper overseas labor is due to underpaying them), etc. Reluctance to ditching the Imperial system is but one reason of many, all stemming from our resistance to changing to keep up with the rest of the world.

Oh, right. We switch to metric and suddenly Chevy and GM start making good cars again. I see your logic. It'll also make manufacturing and wages literal pennies and sweatshops.

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4 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

This whole thread a long while ago became a game of obfusticated political commentary which is started with an unattributed quote by a right wing commentator and then goes on to bash whatever.  
 

I would say just about every comment in this entire thread beginning with an insult, such as the one above, is one such. “What in the world are you talking about?” Is rush Limbaugh for example.  It goes all the way back to the beginning of the thread though.  Dog whistles et al.

Sorry but this whole statement is asinine.

 

"What in the world are you talking about?" Is not an insult in any sense. And how in the world you would contribute such a common phrase to someone like Rush literally makes zero sense at all. People have used that phrase long before Rush was even born and as someone whos listened to rush on and off for close to 20 years thats not even something i remember him constantly using to the extent it would be linked to him.

 

Outside of OPs total xenophobic nonsense i think most people here are having a pretty civil and constructive discussion even when they are not on the same page.

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4 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Why do you think we haven't been manufacturing as much? Asia may be paying pennies on the dollar but Europe seems to be doing fine without being dependent on us while paying living wages (something we are having more and more trouble doing). We are lagging simply because we are so resistant to change, too cheap and/or apathetic to not buy products made with what is essentially slave labor (all though not all cheaper overseas labor is due to underpaying them), etc. Reluctance to ditching the Imperial system is but one reason of many, all stemming from our resistance to changing to keep up with the rest of the world.

 

Or you refuse to open your mind to ideas other than  the outdated ones you stubbornly cling to. All your responses (responces to keep you folks on the east side of the pond happy 😉 ) so far have only reinforced what I have been saying about why we should ditch the Imperial system. Open your eyes to what is happening in the entire world, not just you tiny slice of it.

Im so confused by what you are trying to get at here.

 

We could magically switch to metric tomorrow and thats not going to solve any of the issues you brought up.

 

Saving money by only having to buy metric tools isnt going to have a huge impact on anyones business. And its not going to bring certain productions back to America.

 

Theres a reason car companies are going to mexico...and its because cheap labor. Not because of metric.

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25 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Im so confused by what you are trying to get at here.

 

We could magically switch to metric tomorrow and thats not going to solve any of the issues you brought up.

 

Saving money by only having to buy metric tools isnt going to have a huge impact on anyones business. And its not going to bring certain productions back to America.

 

Theres a reason car companies are going to mexico...and its because cheap labor. Not because of metric.

Making America go metric has been tried and it has failed.  Twice.  My memory of the original reason for the second attempt used all those arguments but it wasn’t the big one.  The big one was it made American products more exportable.  There were companies surviving only because cheaper American goods were sized wrong.  Now the reverse is more true I suspect.

The issue is somewhat academic, because it’s not possible.  Might it be better for america? Sure.  Let’s take that one off the table and just say yes.  America would gain an advantage over its current situation.  It still doesn’t matter. A change is going to be either very painful or take place over a very long length of time.  The way the British are doing it.  The British have a governmental system that can actually make long term legislation like that stick.  The US doesn't.  We lose almost complete continuity every 8 years.


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its nice to be able to turn off the ac/heating when you leave and then turn it on before you go back to save energy and so its not too hot/cold but yeah thats not enough for me to get a nest

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2 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

its nice to be able to turn off the ac/heating when you leave and then turn it on before you go back to save energy and so its not too hot/cold but yeah thats not enough for me to get a nest

That's a basic feature of all but the most bottom level thermostats. Most will allow you to set a simple schedule (eg: 7:30 AM set temp to 21C, 8:30 AM set temp to 15C, 4:30 PM set temp to 21C, 10:30 PM set temp to 15C - etc). Many will allow you to set that for each day of the week (allowing you to set different schedules depending on the day of the week).

 

These would have historically been "Smart" thermostats (or rather, probably "Programmable") - but now that we have IoT/connected devices with much more capable and flexible programming and processing power, the term "Smart" has changed (see below).

 

Some will even have more advanced scheduling features, but those are usually getting into the "Smart" (as we think of the term in 2019) Thermostats, like the Nest.


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1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

That's a basic feature of all but the most bottom level thermostats. Most will allow you to set a simple schedule (eg: 7:30 AM set temp to 21C, 8:30 AM set temp to 15C, 4:30 PM set temp to 21C, 10:30 PM set temp to 15C - etc). Many will allow you to set that for each day of the week (allowing you to set different schedules depending on the day of the week).

 

These would have historically been "Smart" thermostats (or rather, probably "Programmable") - but now that we have IoT/connected devices with much more capable and flexible programming and processing power, the term "Smart" has changed (see below).

 

Some will even have more advanced scheduling features, but those are usually getting into the "Smart" (as we think of the term in 2019) Thermostats, like the Nest.

oh, my thermostat doesnt do that :/

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11 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

oh, my thermostat doesnt do that :/

What does yours have? A simple temperature target? Just on/off?


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