Blackhat talk on T2 chip security

[TechyBen]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

At most you could argue that one of the functions of T2 is hardware DRM.

Spoiler

 

The T2 does a lot of different operations, many of which are perfectly valid and very important.

I am getting pretty tired of people putting all the blame on the T2 because it's about as moronic as the people that used to shout that UEFI was the devil and terrible, and we should all stick with BIOS, all because of SecureBoot.

 

The T2 is a fantastic chip and I want all computers to have a similar piece of hardware in them.

 

 

Well in this case you are actually out to hurt people.

You want to reduce the security of a platform by spreading fear and doubt about a very important security component.

 

I am all for easy repairs too. The difference between you and me is that I put the blame on Apple and some specific practices they have, while you make blanket statements which in the long run are extremely harmful because you are advocating for removing security features which are unrelated to the blockades for independent repair shops. You want to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

 

 

[Edited out thue bit I'm commenting on].

Yes. It is part of it. A bit like screws. Screws don't prevent people from repairing the device. Security screws don't prevent it. But you can look at a device and go "did Apple do that out of convenience, or are they repeatedly trying to do me over here." XD

 

TouchID -> ssd -> screen are all vectors of possible MitM/intercept attacks. Apple might be doing the easiest way to lock down attacks on the user space/SSD data. But as always, I see other firms doing it with more consumer based orientations.

 

Locking parts to serial numbers for function, is a worrying road to go down. For consumers.

[LAwLz]

59 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

Not really, if you buy a 20 grand machine, you're probably not one to be buying too good to be true bargain components from China.

There are Apple computers that costs way less than that. What is your point?

 

 

1 hour ago, Curious Pineapple said:

If you start running busses through another component it can introduce latency and timing issues, like it has with the USB audio devices. Not an issue for bulk transfer but where timing is critical, like audio or programming/flashing microcontrollers or flash chips, you can get corruption. For a microcontroller that just means a bad checksum and you try again, if you're repairing automotive control units for example, it may restart on upload and cause a failure.

1) I don't know why you're bringing up irrelevant stuff like automotive control units.

2) Have you read anywhere what the issue is or are you just making a bunch of assumptions?

I haven't been able to find someone explaining why T2 equipped Macs have issues with certain audio devices. If you have a link that explains it then feel free to post it here. I am very interested.

 

 

1 hour ago, Curious Pineapple said:

Except it is possible to reflash GPU's with Apple's firmware. It is possible to replace BGA components, you can do it with reletively inexpensive equipment.

 

The concern is not what happens now, but how long is it before even removable parts are tied to the machine? Microsoft did it with the Xbox 360, the optical drives were tied to the board to prevent swapping out and playing copies of games. Not really an issue in a games console and a repair service was offered rather than just selling the customer a new machine.

And none of that is related to the T2 because it is possible to do without the T2.

Please get that through your thick skull. The problem is NOT the T2 because all of what you describe is possible without the use of the T2. The problem is Apple's policies and design choices where they deliberately make it more difficult to swap parts out.

Again, it is entirely possible to have upgradability and ease of repair, while also having a T2 chip. Understand? It is Apple that is the problem, not the T2.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, lewdicrous said:

You cannot equate what apple puts in place to what apple customers put in place; Rossmann can easily call his customers if he ever needed a password that they didn't provide, he cannot, however, call apple to get something that they're not providing.

Also, my response was to RedRound's post (shown below), showing them that apple blocked certain repairs.

Okay, then blame Apple for it. Don't blame the T2 because that's not its function. The reason why Macs are difficult to repair is because Apple made them that way, not because they have a T2 chip. Apple could make them easy to repair and still have a T2 chip inside them, and Apple could make them difficult to repair even without the T2 chip.

 

 

1 hour ago, lewdicrous said:

Rossmann has a vested interest in the right to repair, not just apple, they just happen to make it more and more difficult for their customers to get their devices repaired in whatever store they want. If apple really wants people to get genuine parts for repair, then they will provide those parts to their customers instead of blocking 3rd part stores, like what Rossmann runs. As I've said in a previous post (below), other companies offer genuine parts for people to buy, if apple really cared about their customers, then they would do the same. Instead, they charge you a sizeable amount of money for a repair that you can get for way cheaper from people like Rossmann.

Yes and that's the problem. The problem isn't the T2 chip. The problem is Apple, their policies and their design choices.

Blame Apple, not the T2. When you blame the T2 you risk reducing security on the platform which we should not do. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

 

1 hour ago, lewdicrous said:

If apple really cares about what their customers get, then they're gonna provide the tools necessary for someone to repair a device without the customers having to pay a lot of money or hiding the parts behind a lot of hurdles so it becomes difficult/impossible for 3rd party stores to get them, maybe then apple won't have to sue people for fixing iPhones using parts that apple won't even give them.

If apple provided a means for 3rd party repair stores to buy genuine parts then shit like this will not have happened.

I don't get why you keep repeating "if Apple really cares about their customers" because I have not said they do.

I think Apple treats their customers like shit a lot of the time. The only thing I disagree with in this thread are the people who make blanket statements about the T2 chip and talk about it as if it's bad. The T2 chip is fantastic. It's wonderful. It's awesome and I want all computers to have one.

The problem is Apple, not the T2 chip. If people in this thread were shitting on Apple for not providing parts, trying to lock parts down etc then I would not give a shit. But as soon as someone who doesn't understand what the T2 chip is starts blaming it for all the bad stuff Apple does then I take issue. It's not the T2 chip that's bad, it's Apple that's bad.

Having the T2 chip removed would not do jack shit except reduce security. All the "hardware DRM" Apple has can be implemented in other ways. It's just that it was convenient for them to bundle some of that functionality into the T2 when they were implementing it in the first place. If the T2 didn't exist then they would have been able to achieve the same "hardware DRM" through other methods. That's why I take such great offense with people who blame the T2 chip.

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

and it is T2 and Apple to blame for it because Apple refuses to let reputable independent repair business with thousands of repairs such as Louis Rossmann be allowed to use the security software.

No, 100% of the blame is on Apple, not the T2 chip. Blame Apple, not the T2 chip.

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Locking parts to serial numbers for function, is a worrying road to go down. For consumers.

I completely agree that it might lead to very bad stuff. What I am saying is that you should blame Apple for that, not the T2 chip.

The T2 chip is a fantastic design and provides great functionality I would like to see in all computers. The problem isn't the T2 chip because like I have said before, it's Apple that's doing the bad things (or potentially does in the future) here.

Locking parts to serial numbers is something that can be done without the T2 chip, so why are people blaming the T2 chip? Blame Apple instead.

Blaming the T2 chip is essentially shooting the messenger.

[lewdicrous]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

- snip -

All of my posts are aimed specifically at apple, not the T2 chip on its own..

[RedRound2]

2 hours ago, lewdicrous said:

If you really think that corporations care about their customers more than they want you to believe, then you're delusional.

If you really think corporation can somehow succeed without consumers approval, you're quite delusional

2 hours ago, lewdicrous said:

He runs a repair and data recovery store, he just so happens to repair apple products for less than what apple charges their customers, so he gets more business from people who own apple products.

What? How does this have anything to do with what you quoted me with. What I said is that making an Apple repairshop is good business, just because of the number os Apple devices that are out there

2 hours ago, lewdicrous said:

He hates the way they restricts people from repairing the devices they bought, their right to repair.

We all know that every device you buy will break, we also know that you can buy authorized parts for a lot of devices, but you can't do that for apple devices cause apple doesn't sell parts to 3rd party repair stores.

Here are a few examples of authorized parts from samsung, dell and sony, if something happens to a device that I own and I want to repair it by myself then I can do that when it comes to those companies, but I can't do that with an apple device.

I'll tell you what Apple wants to achieve and what Apple is doing wrong. Apple just doesn't want to sell spare parts because they don't want customers or inexperianced repairman to damage their device. Because at the end of it consumers would just blame Apple, in case their device also fails after the 'repair'. So, Apple wants to take everything in-house. Except they don't have time like Rossmann and others to spend time inspecting every nook and cranny of the board for faults and replace failed component. Moreover if there were more issues unrelated to the inital problem, it wouldn't be addressed with all the time they spent addressing the first one. So to avoid all these hassles, they just replace the entire logic board, which in turn increases the price

 

I can understand where Apple is coming from. Are they doing a perfect job handling this? No. Far from it. In fact a terrrible job, for both the consumer and Apple themselves. But it's been more of a delicate balance, where a few among millions of users are exposed to eye watering Apple repair prices and if the problems are common enough, Apple takes all the beating (deservedly so, for overlooking it in the first place) by offering free repairs are replacements.

 

Other companies, don't have to worry as much because the media doesn't have half as interest in lenovo, dell, HP than it does have on Apple. Just like how the media loves to trash Tesla.

 

To kind of mitigate this issue to a certain degree, they've annouced independant repair program, where technicians are required to undergo training and can repair Apple devices out of warranty

2 hours ago, lewdicrous said:

I think you forgot you said this:

Yeah a few thounsands of broken devices among at least a millions of Apple devices around is pretty less than 1% of Apple devices that do end up having faults. And the figure of thousands probably includes user errors like liquid damage. If you expect all Apple devices to be perfect while others can have faults, then i have nothing else to say to you.

2 hours ago, lewdicrous said:

Your sample size is way smaller than that of Rossmann and yet you say his opinion is skewed and I'm guessing you think yours is solid. Are you fucking serious?

He has years of experience and thousands of devices backing his claims, what do you have?

Just because some guy on the internet, running a repairshop making videos is complaining about Apple exists, doesn't mean everything he says are just universal facts. He isn't a genius of sorts. He doesn't know anything about the faliure rates with other devices. He doesn't know how complicated Apple's logistics for detailed repairwork as he does are. We have all the facts laid on the table. It's pretty easy to put the puzzle together. If Apple's intention was to just loot customers their money, they would've died long ago. If Apple's intention is to loot customers of their money by providing a lot of exclusive benefits for all it's users, making the user able to justify some of it's higher prices in certain category, congratulations you just defined what a buisness actually is (well done, give yourself a pat on the back). If you don't support or like the business, don't buy it. End of the Story.

[LAwLz]

5 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

And you can't change the parts on them as they're all integrated......

Yes, and what is your point exactly? I really don't understand your train of thought here. How is this related to the T2?

 

6 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

There is an issue with USB 2 audio devices and audio glitches caused by the T2. I brought up automotive units as, now this may be a shock to you, you can repair them. You can also fuck them up with a bad flash.

You're not making any sense.

I asked why you were bringing up automotive control units. I don't understand how they are relevant to this conversation about the T2 chip.

I also asked you WHY the T2 equipped Macs have issues. "There is an issue" is not an explanation why. You said it was because of latency and timing issues but I haven't found anything which indicates that's the issue. So I asked for a source. Do you have one or is that just assumptions you're making?

 

9 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

It's nothing to do with it, until it is, get that into your thick skull.

What do you mean?

 

9 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

And you have proved the point. Apple have a history of pulling this crap, Apple are the ones implementing these security features, and Apple are the ones who stand to gain from using implementing a total lockdown of the hardware.

Yes, so blame Apple for that. Don't blame the T2 chip because it's not the T2 chip's fault.

 

 

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, lewdicrous said:

All of my posts are aimed specifically at apple, not the T2 chip on its own..

Sorry but I think I got you mixed together with someone else.

For some reason I though you were one of the people blaming the T2 chip.

[lewdicrous]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Sorry but I think I got you mixed together with someone else.

For some reason I though you were one of the people blaming the T2 chip.

No worries.

[amdorintel]

On 12/22/2019 at 4:14 AM, mr moose said:

That's because I try not to let my love or hatred for products get in the way of being rational about their realities.  That means that I can defend apple and hate them at the same time.

 

 

you are going to confuse alot of users on this forum

lololol

[EarthWormJM2]

8 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

when he only interacts with few thousands of broken Apple devices

That's exactly why he makes these videos, because he sees so many devices with issues that should be simple fixes but are made harder and longer by Apple themselves. I'd be frustrated too. But he makes most of his living fixing APPLE products, so obviously he doesn't want Apple to go out of business or anything, he just wants them to be better with their business practices, like the repair side of things.

If anything, I would say he's the PERFECT guy to make these opinions about these devices as he is one of the front lines seeing all the issues. Much rather trust him then an 18 yr old "genius" who's knowledge relies on a WiFi connection to a database of ONLY the information Apple whats to give out. Hence why none of them know that you could disassemble the phone to recover data if it was water damaged or something. (or the fact that Apple doesn't want you to know this (they literally employ ppl on their forums to delete helpful comments, like how to recover your data from a damaged phone) But I digress) 

 

On topic:

The T2 chip is a physical piece of HW that has the ability to completely lock out any component on a device or the device itself. Mr. Moose was saying that Apple COULD use it nefariously and based on past actions, would be a surprise to no one who knows them. None of it is saying they ARE doing anything, just they COULD. Dunno how that can be said much clearer lol.

[EarthWormJM2]

8 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

And Apple has usually has the largest segment in any given category. They have the most popular high end laptop of a single SKU, most popular high end phone

Just because you sell the most of something, doesn't mean it's the best... Doesn't even mean it has to be good. Look at Lada in Russia for example... lol

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lada

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_automobiles

[RedRound2]

1 hour ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

That's exactly why he makes these videos, because he sees so many devices with issues that should be simple fixes but are made harder and longer by Apple themselves. I'd be frustrated too. But he makes most of his living fixing APPLE products, so obviously he doesn't want Apple to go out of business or anything, he just wants them to be better with their business practices, like the repair side of things.

If anything, I would say he's the PERFECT guy to make these opinions about these devices as he is one of the front lines seeing all the issues. Much rather trust him then an 18 yr old "genius" who's knowledge relies on a WiFi connection to a database of ONLY the information Apple whats to give out. Hence why none of them know that you could disassemble the phone to recover data if it was water damaged or something. (or the fact that Apple doesn't want you to know this (they literally employ ppl on their forums to delete helpful comments, like how to recover your data from a damaged phone) But I digress) 

You're missing the point. He only encounters broken Apple devices when the fact is there are probably millions of working Apple devices in that area.

 

We all know Apple is extremely popular. We all know Apple users usually almost love all their products and what it offers. All my Apple devices have reliably lasted much longer than any other product and that's a sentiment that's among the general consumers. That's the point. If Apple products sucked and always prematurely died, they would've died long ago. No customer is going to buy the same device again after prematurely failing the first time. No one in the right mind would do that, and I would be hating Apple if that was the case with any of all the Apple devices I have owned for the past few years.

 

Rossmann doesn't fix other products. He doesn't know the failure rates in other products. Yes sometimes there are valid criticism he makes with certain design choices, but it doesn't really matter as long as it's not causing a huge hassle to the end user.

Quote

On topic:

The T2 chip is a physical piece of HW that has the ability to completely lock out any component on a device or the device itself. Mr. Moose was saying that Apple COULD use it nefariously and based on past actions, would be a surprise to no one who knows them. None of it is saying they ARE doing anything, just they COULD. Dunno how that can be said much clearer lol.

You didn't get how the T2 works. I can't go into technicalities but it's very well explained in the previous comments and you really don't need a dedicated ARM processor to cryptographically lock each and every component. But T2 offers so many other benefits from security stand point, so you're just muddying the water on something, based on assumptions, which have otherwise only been great for consumers.

[mr moose]

9 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Dude, what is wrong with you? It was an isolated case. The same issue didn't seem to exist for the iPhone X or any other models other than the 7 and 8 for a brief period with iOS 11.3. Your evidence is worthless when it's no longer true. Sure at one point Hitler was good for Germany. You can't use that argument today when the fact is very well disputed at this point.

You are trying to argue something no one cares about nor is talking about.   What I posted was an example of what apple can do not the concerns we are discussing.  C'mon it's not that hard.

 

9 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

You promoting something good, somone does? Bullshit. All you do in this forum is go to the first article of Apple and spew some random nonsence. It's a particular behaviour that not only I have noticed. You'll probably say the same for me also, but I'm more of a passive user on the forum and I'll only engage when i see random bullshit like this around the forum.

 

When you have nothing left to argue just attack the character of the person instead.

 

9 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

T2 chip has been explained by the Blackhat presenter, the OP and somone above. Lawlz also claims he has before. And all your responses are pretty much, Apple device + T2 = Removing everything Apple doesn't agree with, when the working of the chip is completely different from what you seem to be able to even imagine

And you are not following the conversation, no one is arguing what the T2 chip is being currently used for, concerns were raised about what it COULD be used for in the future.   That is why none of your responses make any sense.  We are talking about what it can be used for and apples history on the topic.

 

9 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Yes, Apple the evil corporation who only loots consumers. Yes, Apple does not operate in a Capatalist market and the only reason they're a trillion dollar company is because every single human is forced to buy their products, or their life will be at risk. Grow up and wake up from your fantasy. It is really pathetic. You don't like Apple, you don't ever have to touch their products, but don't also complain and spread bullshit about it. Vast majority of consumers are happy with their choices of Apple products and that's the reason they've been sticking to it and that's the only reason their ecosystem is a success unlike Samsung or Huwawei's.

Caring more about users leads to imporving business. The fact that you think their both unrelated, is...honeslty can't think of an appropriate phrase for it. Rossmann has an establish reputation for hate of Apple products and no not all repirman thinks of Apple the same way. And Apple has usually has the largest segment in any given category. They have the most popular high end laptop of a single SKU, most popular high end phone, etc so making an Apple repairshop is a smart decision.

 

Huh?  Now I know you are only here for a pointless debate.  I have linked 5 articles explaining the issues with apple and right to repair (the main concern of the discussion) and all you are doing is trying to rebut the superficial individual parts.  By apple denying consumers the right to repair and by making it hard to get repairs done (both facts) they are anti consumer.  i don't care if you don't believe it, those facts will still be facts.

 

8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

1) Why would they do that anyway? There are counterfeit iPhone screens on the market, but nobody is making counterfeit Intel CPUs, or AMD graphics cards.

2) Why would they need a T3 chip to do what you're describing? They can already do that in other ways such as SecureBoot or at the OS level. What you're describing is a very complex solution to a simple problem.

 

I think you're trying to spread FUD regarding the T2 chip, because you don't like encryption. You've already openly said that you want the government to be able to get access to encrypted information if they so desire, and the T2 prevents that. So I think you are trying to make people scared of the T2 so it might lead to encryption being weakened.

 

 

Yes... and? Apple has a lot of different ways to do it. For example they could do it with SecureBoot too, or do a check in the bootloader for specific serial numbers.

 

 

That's not a problem with the T2 chip. That's a problem with Apple not providing the Service Toolkit 2 to independant repair shops.

 

 

You want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

 

 

I think you should go back tot he first page and read my first comment on this whole thing.  because you have completely missed the point of the discussion. no one is trying to argue aspecific intended use for the T2, just a concern about what it can be used for (specifically in future generations). 

 

8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

It is VERY important that we do not generalize the T2.

No one is really.

8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

The T2 is not Hardware DRM. At most you could argue that one of the functions of T2 is hardware DRM.

That is the only thing people are arguing (more to the point raising concerns over).

 

8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

The T2 does a lot of different operations, many of which are perfectly valid and very important.

And?  who cares,  no one has said it doesn't do any important or valid, in fact many have said they thinks it's brilliant especially in enterprise.  but if it was to be used in this way in consumer hardware then that is not good.  And that is a fair opinion that doesn't require anyone explain to you the technicalities of how it would be possible.

 

8 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I am getting pretty tired of people putting all the blame on the T2 because it's about as moronic as the people that used to shout that UEFI was the devil and terrible, and we should all stick with BIOS, all because of SecureBoot.

 

The T2 is a fantastic chip and I want all computers to have a similar piece of hardware in them.

 

 

Well in this case you are actually out to hurt people.

 

Sorry, that's just funny. Do you honestly think being concerned about a company that refuses to repair consumer devices opting to instead sell a new one and all their other anti consumer activities is hurting people? If anything it is doing the exact opposite.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, LAwLz said:

snip

 

Yes, so blame Apple for that. Don't blame the T2 chip because it's not the T2 chip's fault.

snip

 

For some reason I though you were one of the people blaming the T2 chip.

 

I think you need to go back to the start of the thread and familiarize yourself with the concern raised instead of coming in half way and assuming things.   No one is blaming the T2 chip for anything, the claims are that apple COULD use the T2 (more accurately a future version of it) to lock out non genuine hardware.  A not unreasonable concern given their history of trying to prevent 3rd party repairs (and in some cases dissuade people from repairing at all).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Curious Pineapple]

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

snip

I did point out that the T2 has been the cause of USB 2 audio hardware dropping out and causing audio glitches, which is fact. What this pleb can't understand is why I mentioned repair of automotive electronics and programming flash memory being timing critical.

 

I have a Dell workstation with a few security settings in the BIOS that are off by default, but once enabled they are perminant. That's how it should be, off by default but if you need them, then they should be perminantly enabled.

 

The PS4 has a similar setup to the T2, the Southbridge is actually an ARM microprocessor which prevents PCI devices from accessing system memory through DMA and keeps the hardware in check (put simply). The PS4 can now install linux onto a flash drive through it's web browser, that's how secure locking down the PCI express bus was.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

I did point out that the T2 has been the cause of USB 2 audio hardware dropping out and causing audio glitches, which is fact. What this pleb can't understand is why I mentioned repair of automotive electronics and programming flash memory being timing critical.

I don't understand why people argue against something that is substantiated evidentially.  Does the T2 cause problems? yes we can link to several, is that the core issue? not really. they are unintentional and get fixed, it is the intentional stuff most of us are worried about.

 

3 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

I have a Dell workstation with a few security settings in the BIOS that are off by default, but once enabled they are perminant. That's how it should be, off by default but if you need them, then they should be perminantly enabled.

 

The PS4 has a similar setup to the T2, the Southbridge is actually an ARM microprocessor which prevents PCI devices from accessing system memory through DMA and keeps the hardware in check (put simply). The PS4 can now install linux onto a flash drive through it's web browser, that's how secure locking down the PCI express bus was.

I was unaware of that.  But a practical example of blocking PCIe without hurting performance is further evidence our concerns regarding hardware DRM is not unfounded (despite the best efforts of some).

[Blademaster91]

11 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

And I can't work it out,  we have apple saying they can, examples of them actually doing it (regardless of whether they still do or not), a history of the company not wanting people to repair their own devices,  and on top of that blocking drivers for companies they don't want on their systems.  And yet people are still trying to argue they can't or won't.   

 

It's like debating with flat earther's, the evidence is right their in front of their face and they continue to argue as if you are only out to hurt people.

Exactly, I don't get the double argument of "T2 is great you just don't understand the security benefit and stop blaming Apple". We're arguing that the company has the history of locking down everything to only be left with first party services and repair, and it benefits them so of course the hardware would be locked to only be serviceable by an Apple technician.

2 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Rossmann doesn't fix other products. He doesn't know the failure rates in other products. Yes sometimes there are valid criticism he makes with certain design choices, but it doesn't really matter as long as it's not causing a huge hassle to the end user.

You didn't get how the T2 works. I can't go into technicalities but it's very well explained in the previous comments and you really don't need a dedicated ARM processor to cryptographically lock each and every component. But T2 offers so many other benefits from security stand point, so you're just muddying the water on something, based on assumptions, which have otherwise only been great for consumers.

It literally doesn't matter, we aren't talking about other products but you're trying to discredit a person who is very good at what he does, and opening up a business specializing in Apple repair is a pretty smart move IMO. And there are tons of Apple products that are notorious for having failing hardware, just look at the butterfly keyboards to name one, yet people still kept buying Apple devices. I see way more people that specialize in Macbooks and iPads than I do PC laptops, when the first party service sucks and is overpriced of course independent services are going to want that business. It's like BMW or Mercedes mechanics, the dealer usually sucks and just wants you to buy a new car so of course there are many mechanics that specialize in those vehicles.

We get how the T2 chip works, however if the charging circuit, SSD or RAM fails, the consequence is the device is a brick unless you take it to an Apple store,and they either want to charge you about what the whole device is worth or try to sell you new hardware. The consequence of the hardware being bricked isn't  necessary or worth it to most people.

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

Exactly, I don't get the double argument of "T2 is great you just don't understand the security benefit and stop blaming Apple". We're arguing that the company has the history of locking down everything to only be left with first party services and repair, and it benefits them so of course the hardware would be locked to only be serviceable by an Apple technician.

 

 

I literally got told I was hurting people because i had the audacity to point to several occasions where apple where not being fair.

 

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

 

It literally doesn't matter, we aren't talking about other products but you're trying to discredit a person who is very good at what he does, and opening up a business specializing in Apple repair is a pretty smart move IMO. And there are tons of Apple products that are notorious for having failing hardware, just look at the butterfly keyboards to name one, yet people still kept buying Apple devices. I see way more people that specialize in Macbooks and iPads than I do PC laptops, when the first party service sucks and is overpriced of course independent services are going to want that business. It's like BMW or Mercedes mechanics, the dealer usually sucks and just wants you to buy a new car so of course there are many mechanics that specialize in those vehicles.

We get how the T2 chip works, however if the charging circuit, SSD or RAM fails, the consequence is the device is a brick unless you take it to an Apple store,and they either want to charge you about what the whole device is worth or try to sell you new hardware. The consequence of the hardware being bricked isn't  necessary or worth it to most people.

 

personally I don't think rossman is an absolute in the argument, but by the same token anyone who dismisses him outright on such flimsy logic as "he repairs those devices"  are also the people who will outright argue the video evidence of apple customer service defrauding customers didn't happen. Like the teen told he needed a new GPU when is mac didn't have one.

 

 

I had better post the video before i get called a liar again.

 

 

[LAwLz]

6 hours ago, Curious Pineapple said:

I said that running busses through another device will introduce latencies, I didn't say that's why the T2 causes USB 2 issues. You turned that into "T2 causes latency and timing  issues". Not really the same thing is it.

Okay, so why did you bring that up then if it wasn't related to the T2? Why didn't you say that the first 2 times I asked you?

And if you didn't refer to the T2 when you made your comment that "running buses through other devices introduces latency and timing issues", then what were you referring to?

Did you just feel like making a random statement that was completely unrelated to the conversation?

 

6 hours ago, Curious Pineapple said:

As I said, I'm done. You're taking what people say and trying to twist it to fit your narrative. Notice how everyone else has fucked off from this thread? I'm probably the only person bored enough to still reply.

No I haven't noticed that.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Curious Pineapple said:

I don't get the Apple fans that can't see the issues.

Believe me, I am not an Apple fan.

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Blademaster91 said:

Exactly, I don't get the double argument of "T2 is great you just don't understand the security benefit and stop blaming Apple". We're arguing that the company has the history of locking down everything to only be left with first party services and repair, and it benefits them so of course the hardware would be locked to only be serviceable by an Apple technician.

The thing is that the T2 doesn't have anything to do with it.

The T2 or a hypothetical T3 chip should not be mentioned or bright up when talking about some potential hardware DRM, because it is completely irrelevant.

Apple can implement any type of hardware DRM they want with or without the T2, or a hypothetical T3. That's why I am responding to everyone mentioning the T2, because we run the risk of people hating on it for the wrong reasons.

The T2 is fantastic. It's amazing and great. It's Apple's practices we should be hating on, not the T2.

The T2 should never even have been brought up when debating hardware DRM because it is completely irrelevant and bringing it up might cause people to get the wrong ideas about it. Hell even in this thread I see a ton of people not understanding it, saying it should be "optional for enterprise" and whatnot. It shouldn't be optional at all. It should be mandatory and hopefully all computers would have it or something similar. What we should strive for is to have really good security and encryption on all our devices because that should be the standard. A thief shouldn't be able to access all your files because "only enterprise needs encryption".

 

The T2 has gotten an undeserving bad rep because people who don't understand it put a bunch of blame for unrelated things on it. The T2 should have a fantastic rep and everybody should be praising it, but that's not what is happening.

[WkdPaul]

* thread locked and somewhat cleaned *

 

Seems like some people can't be bothered to discuss Apple without being disingenuous.

 

Also, troll and fanboy accusations are still against the Community Standards.