Ring. But wait! There's more!

[TechyBen]

11 hours ago, mr moose said:

If I called the government to dob in someone who I thought was planning a new party to oppose the current system they'd just laugh at me.  We are not living in a dystopian 1984 world.

 

 

And here is where where you are and where I am differ. While "laugh at me", we have had yearly, and almost monthly attacks in this country, and most were known/"dobbed" in as planing/violent/unstable people. So... It's a problem, with little to no solution (the innocent seem to get harassed for just having a camera on them, the real dangers go out free and attack).

Quote

The book 1984 accurately describes a more technically capable north Korea,  I am pretty sure not many people will argue that any of the 1st world free countries are anything like Nth Korea or even heading in that direction.

I think the whole warning of 1984 is that a lot of people don't notice. They think "it's the same it's always been, it's been getting better, it's not getting worse".

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, TechyBen said:

 

I think the whole warning of 1984 is that a lot of people don't notice. They think "it's the same it's always been, it's been getting better, it's not getting worse".

 

That's generally because there is nothing to notice.  Public knowledge is something that can be objectively quantified,  that is what the transparency and democracy surveys do.    Comparison of laws and activities of governments and populace perception surveys. 

 

We are talking about it so it isn't hidden and it is a very common conversation across nearly all internet forums.    As I said earlier,  there are many examples from history of these things happening,  we can even compare modern retelling of historical events to early documentation from libraries.  

 

[TechyBen]

15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

That's generally because there is nothing to notice.  Public knowledge is something that can be objectively quantified,  that is what the transparency and democracy surveys do.    Comparison of laws and activities of governments and populace perception surveys. 

 

We are talking about it so it isn't hidden and it is a very common conversation across nearly all internet forums.    As I said earlier,  there are many examples from history of these things happening,  we can even compare modern retelling of historical events to early documentation from libraries.  

 

I still am agasp at how you think USA is the majority of the planet. I wonder what 1 billion + people live in, the democracies, or the "democracies"?

[AnonymousGuy]

Meh...alarmist "reporting".  Ring isn't capturing anything that isn't publicly visible to begin with.   "Here's a map with all the Ring locations"...wow great work, why don't you make a map of where everyone's front door is too?

[mr moose]

10 hours ago, TechyBen said:

I still am agasp at how you think USA is the majority of the planet. I wonder what 1 billion + people live in, the democracies, or the "democracies"?

who said anything about the USA being the majority?  My post didn't even mention the USA. 

 

 

[TechyBen]

13 hours ago, mr moose said:

who said anything about the USA being the majority?  My post didn't even mention the USA. 

 

 

Or anywhere first world/democracy? (I'm UK, IIRC are you Aus or NZ? We are under their trade deals and global agreements) Is there more or less than a billion or so people in China, middle east, Asia, Africa, Middle/South America, and Russia? Are these the better more improved places you are talking about? Is it more than half the population of the planet?

 

Is it improved?

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Or anywhere first world/democracy? (I'm UK, IIRC are you Aus or NZ? We are under their trade deals and global agreements) Is there more or less than a billion or so people in China, middle east, Asia, Africa, Middle/South America, and Russia? Are these the better more improved places you are talking about? Is it more than half the population of the planet?

 

Is it improved?

 

I still don't see what you are trying to say here.  The sheer number of people in a country only effects that country, it has no bearing on the number of countries moving to democratic status.   Or the fact that people are still aware of that their governments are doing.

 

If you want to talk about china, then sure.  It is a lot more democratic now than it was even 10 years ago, even without the ability to elect a new government or even have a legitimate opposition, they are still growing a free market with many strong capitalist traits.  In fact you only have to go back 30 years and they were killing people openly in public.  There is a quite the large amount of problematic issues effecting the way China has to be run,  We can't just ignore the last 500 years of history, change in world economic forces, population density and local resources.  You can't just give 1.3B people free run of the country and vote in any old body and hope to maintain growth and structure (two things every country needs), the whole system has to be managed in a way that permits the move from communism to a free democracy without risking major chaos.    The reason many people see china as a shit hole communist country is because they are too young to have seen what it was like and thus they can't see where it is heading.  The worst part about china (for those of us who have been watching for the last 30 years) is that they are mimicking the US very closely in many ways, they want to control everything for fear of being controlled by everything.  And I think that is a reasonable response when you have so many people to manage and unpredictable trading partners like the US. 

[TechyBen]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

 

The sheer number of people in a country only effects that country, it has no bearing on the number of countries moving to democratic status

So, have (by your metric, and could you explain it, people/countries/technology) have we improved? Are there countries, Russia, China, etc, who are like the 1984 warning?

I am still confused by your comments:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

[mr moose]

6 hours ago, TechyBen said:

So, have (by your metric, and could you explain it, people/countries/technology) have we improved? Are there countries, Russia, China, etc, who are like the 1984 warning?

I am still confused by your comments:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

You have to look at movements over the whole.  For example if we look at communism as an economic regime and it's spread in eastern europe/asia then it's decline as shown hear:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/100-years-of-communism/

 

You can see that communism  is in serious decline globally.    

 

Combine that with the data concerning wealth, health and literacy and you get a picture that closely follows free political regimes.

https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-conditions-in-5-charts

 

People living under dictator rule was 32%in 1900 and free democracy was 11% fast forward to 2015 and it is 23% and 53% respectively.  The projection is upward for freedom.  Sure you can point at places that have individual laws that we all cringe at,  you can see NK is still doing its thing and china has some real atrocities.   But pointing to the individual components of a country while ignoring the major progress only obscures reality.   I could point to laws in the US that allow police putting GPS trackers on cars without people consent then charging them with theft for removing them,  and I could claim they are as bad as China,  but would you call that a fair argument?  I wouldn't because it is only one thing and the country is a lot bigger than one thing. 

 

Sure the social credit score is overkill for us as free citizens in a country that doesn't have the population of china, but next time you see gang violence in the UK and the police can't do shit about it (or they just get away with it and can still get loans, put their bully kids in your kids school, make death threats to the teachers and any parent who dare try to protect their own kids), maybe you will understand why the Chinese government is trying to keep tabs on these people and punish and correct their behavior in more realistic ways.   Now I am not defending that system.  I don't think it should be that way, but then I don't live in China and I don't have the task of keeping 1.3B people safe and productive. So I keep an open mind about these things.

 

The major take home from all this is that countries by and large are heading to more freer countries,  countries that don't control the flow of information,  countries that even if they try to control the population it gets debated in government and the people know about it.   This is a far cry from the world 1984 drew.

 

 

[TechyBen]

21 hours ago, mr moose said:

You have to look at movements over the whole.  For example if we look at communism as an economic regime and it's spread in eastern europe/asia then it's decline as shown hear:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/100-years-of-communism/

 

You can see that communism  is in serious decline globally.    

 

Combine that with the data concerning wealth, health and literacy and you get a picture that closely follows free political regimes.

https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-conditions-in-5-charts

 

People living under dictator rule was 32%in 1900 and free democracy was 11% fast forward to 2015 and it is 23% and 53% respectively.  The projection is upward for freedom.  Sure you can point at places that have individual laws that we all cringe at,  you can see NK is still doing its thing and china has some real atrocities.   But pointing to the individual components of a country while ignoring the major progress only obscures reality.   I could point to laws in the US that allow police putting GPS trackers on cars without people consent then charging them with theft for removing them,  and I could claim they are as bad as China,  but would you call that a fair argument?  I wouldn't because it is only one thing and the country is a lot bigger than one thing. 

 

Sure the social credit score is overkill for us as free citizens in a country that doesn't have the population of china, but next time you see gang violence in the UK and the police can't do shit about it (or they just get away with it and can still get loans, put their bully kids in your kids school, make death threats to the teachers and any parent who dare try to protect their own kids), maybe you will understand why the Chinese government is trying to keep tabs on these people and punish and correct their behavior in more realistic ways.   Now I am not defending that system.  I don't think it should be that way, but then I don't live in China and I don't have the task of keeping 1.3B people safe and productive. So I keep an open mind about these things.

 

The major take home from all this is that countries by and large are heading to more freer countries,  countries that don't control the flow of information,  countries that even if they try to control the population it gets debated in government and the people know about it.   This is a far cry from the world 1984 drew.

 

 

So. In your opinion, Russia, China, Africa and south America have improved?

Again, in light of the themes of 1984, you seem to suggest the UK and China are in difficult situations. That I agree on. Does that absolved them from making wrong decisions?

 

Like most warnings, just because the house is not on fire. Or fires in houses have reduced (as you say), does not mean we just brush off a Grenville Tower, as "oh, it's going well in general, so we can ignore the warnings!".

 

Quote

maybe you will understand why the Chinese government is trying to keep tabs on these people and punish and correct their behavior in more realistic ways. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

 

To which I finish with:

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, TechyBen said:

So. In your opinion, Russia, China, Africa and south America have improved?

 

Of course they have improved, look at what they used to be like.

2 hours ago, TechyBen said:

Again, in light of the themes of 1984, you seem to suggest the UK and China are in difficult situations. That I agree on. Does that absolved them from making wrong decisions?

Of course they are  different situation, my point is you can't pick out individual issues and claim the whole country  is getting worse because of it.  That is neither rational nor fair. as I said you can point to individual issue sin every country, but not every country is as bad as NK or China.

 

2 hours ago, TechyBen said:

Like most warnings, just because the house is not on fire. Or fires in houses have reduced (as you say), does not mean we just brush off a Grenville Tower, as "oh, it's going well in general, so we can ignore the warnings!".

What warning? it's a fictional book conceived before WW2  and published during the cold war.   It follows the same dystopiian story lines of the time and even today the saame story line gets trodden out.  Is the hunger games a warning?  is soylent green a warning?  of course not.  It's just a story written by someone fascinated with the idea of total government control.

 

 

2 hours ago, TechyBen said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps

 

To which I finish with:

 

Again, you can point to lots of things wrong with china, I have listed a few myself, that does not mean the country as a whole is not moving forward.  In order to determine that you have to look at it's past and the direction it is moving. 

 

[AngryBeaver]

I feel this has been taken out of context a little.

 

First off not ALL of them share that information. Yes, amazon probably has a master list, but they aren't publishing it. The ring cameras were always intended to be something you sync up with your local communities like next-door and also with your local police department. It was intended to be a mesh doorbell/camera system that allowed police to more quickly identify and catch people who are performing crimes.

 

So for example I come home and my front door is kicked in... they can then access all of those cameras in the area to get a picture of the criminals, license plate numbers, etc. They aren't seeing what is happening in my house... so I am not really giving up much privacy and if you do not like it you have the ability to disable that functionality at ANY time.

 

Again most people that purchase the ring do so for the above purpose. So these articles are nothing but an attempt to stir shit up. As for me I welcome more people getting these. I mean for all you know it could also catch a police officers using excessive force or gunning down someone who is unarmed. Again you have the ability to allow or disallow the sharing of the content it captures. If you do not want it shared with police then fine... disable it. 

[Founders]

12 hours ago, AngryBeaver said:

Again most people that purchase the ring do so for the above purpose.

Many people put them inside their home as well.

 

On 12/18/2019 at 11:35 AM, XavierRenegadeAngel_ said:

I have a genuine question, I have been watching LTT for years and literally just made an account. 

Does LMG know that Ring cams are being hacked? Are ads pre recorded way in advance? I still see ads for them in their videos and can't help but think these guys don't know.

Could you link the last video you saw it in?

 

On 12/18/2019 at 12:26 PM, steelo said:

One can fabricate a $30 raspberry pi surveillance system with a rpi zero and a small camera that does 90% of what a 'Ring' device can.. It can record and even text or email you an alert when movement is detected. Also, there are no subscription fees to store your videos, no 'big brother' concerns and the software is open source.  

 

And it really isn't that difficult for the average 'Joe Blow' to build. Although not required, if you have a 3d printer you could also make a pretty nifty enclosure to tidy everything up.

 

If you have the knowledge there are many solutions out there that can be had for a fraction of the cost, don't include any subscription fees as you're hosting everything yourself, and serves the same purpose. The problem is most people don't have the time or knowledge so they turn to Amazon/Ring for their 'security' needs out of convenience and Ring leaves them open to security vulnerabilities and they're paying for the privilege.  

 

On 12/18/2019 at 1:57 PM, fredrichnietze said:

wendell at L1T has been talking about this for weeks and i keep seeing ring adds on LTT. they havent addressed this much in wan show the go to for this kind of thing, so i assume they just dont know. always assume ignorance or stupidity over malice but week after week of rings storys is really starting to make it look like malice.

They must know, everyone knows at this point. If it's true that LMG is still including in video ads for RING they may not be allowed to comment yet for legal reasons. Post a video with the ad if you know of one.  

 

On 12/19/2019 at 2:46 PM, AnonymousGuy said:

Meh...alarmist "reporting".  Ring isn't capturing anything that isn't publicly visible to begin with.   "Here's a map with all the Ring locations"...wow great work, why don't you make a map of where everyone's front door is too?

If you've been following this at all that's far from the only issue. 

[faketruth]

On 12/21/2019 at 10:07 PM, AngryBeaver said:

I feel this has been taken out of context a little.

 

First off not ALL of them share that information. Yes, amazon probably has a master list, but they aren't publishing it. The ring cameras were always intended to be something you sync up with your local communities like next-door and also with your local police department. It was intended to be a mesh doorbell/camera system that allowed police to more quickly identify and catch people who are performing crimes.

 

So for example I come home and my front door is kicked in... they can then access all of those cameras in the area to get a picture of the criminals, license plate numbers, etc. They aren't seeing what is happening in my house... so I am not really giving up much privacy and if you do not like it you have the ability to disable that functionality at ANY time.

 

Again most people that purchase the ring do so for the above purpose. So these articles are nothing but an attempt to stir shit up. As for me I welcome more people getting these. I mean for all you know it could also catch a police officers using excessive force or gunning down someone who is unarmed. Again you have the ability to allow or disallow the sharing of the content it captures. If you do not want it shared with police then fine... disable it. 

at this point i can only see that you have "relationship" with ring - your wording looks like you are trying so hard to whitewash the issue with ring itself rather than addressing them tbh, especially since all you do is to repeat "dont want to share it with police - dont make it public" yet you didnt even mention that the police still can and will bypass that restriction even if you choose not to share with warrant. what is the use of "not sharing" if its still bypassed in the end?

 

in the end its still the same by now, still no word from anyone at LTT on addressing this to begin with after months of waiting (starting with messaging nick on reddit and the other thread on this forum) - and yeah, im still waiting for that on the other thread and they are still being silent on everything about RING anyway.

 

also in case ppl havent seen this yet... more on ring:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10561686/ring-camera-hack-intimate-moments/

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolinehaskins1/data-leak-exposes-personal-data-over-3000-ring-camera-users

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191220/18355443613/nearly-4000-ring-credentials-leaked-including-users-time-zones-device-names.shtml

https://www.techdirt.com/blog/?tag=ring

[AngryBeaver]

On 12/23/2019 at 9:50 PM, faketruth said:

at this point i can only see that you have "relationship" with ring - your wording looks like you are trying so hard to whitewash the issue with ring itself rather than addressing them tbh, especially since all you do is to repeat "dont want to share it with police - dont make it public" yet you didnt even mention that the police still can and will bypass that restriction even if you choose not to share with warrant. what is the use of "not sharing" if its still bypassed in the end?

 

in the end its still the same by now, still no word from anyone at LTT on addressing this to begin with after months of waiting (starting with messaging nick on reddit and the other thread on this forum) - and yeah, im still waiting for that on the other thread and they are still being silent on everything about RING anyway.

 

also in case ppl havent seen this yet... more on ring:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10561686/ring-camera-hack-intimate-moments/

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolinehaskins1/data-leak-exposes-personal-data-over-3000-ring-camera-users

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191220/18355443613/nearly-4000-ring-credentials-leaked-including-users-time-zones-device-names.shtml

https://www.techdirt.com/blog/?tag=ring

"The police can just bypass it with a warrant"

 

You mean the same way they can basically bypass anything? Even if you have a closed loop system they can walk in and take it with a warrant.

 

So how does that argument even have relevance to this? If they are investigating a crime in your neighborhood or suspect they can catch something you were doing on it... then they will more than likely ask for the.. then get a warrant it truly needed. Which is basically the same that would happen with the ring.

 

I mean here is my point. If you are using any type of cloud security solution or any security system that isn't hardwired on a closed loop then it is susceptible to being seen by anyone interested enough to try to get it.

 

My point remains that the concerns here are being exaggerated and anyone with those reservations probably wouldn't buy this thing anyways. To those that do it provides some very solid positive traits that benefit the user, their neighbors,  and even the local police force if they choose to use it.

 

Now if you are sticking these things in a bed room or a kids room that is your own damn stupidity as I wouldn't trust any cloud solution to those locations. I don't even trust most wireless video baby monitors due to the sheer ease you can get access to that video/audiostream.

[wanderingfool2]

On 12/23/2019 at 7:50 PM, faketruth said:

at this point i can only see that you have "relationship" with ring - your wording looks like you are trying so hard to whitewash the issue with ring itself rather than addressing them tbh, especially since all you do is to repeat "dont want to share it with police - dont make it public" yet you didnt even mention that the police still can and will bypass that restriction even if you choose not to share with warrant. what is the use of "not sharing" if its still bypassed in the end?

 

in the end its still the same by now, still no word from anyone at LTT on addressing this to begin with after months of waiting (starting with messaging nick on reddit and the other thread on this forum) - and yeah, im still waiting for that on the other thread and they are still being silent on everything about RING anyway.

 

also in case ppl havent seen this yet... more on ring:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10561686/ring-camera-hack-intimate-moments/

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/carolinehaskins1/data-leak-exposes-personal-data-over-3000-ring-camera-users

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191220/18355443613/nearly-4000-ring-credentials-leaked-including-users-time-zones-device-names.shtml

https://www.techdirt.com/blog/?tag=ring

I agree with @AngryBeaver these sorts of things are really taken out of context.  The issue I have with some of the "Big brother is watching" kind of concepts is that there will always need to be a balance and many times people overlook the actual fact that camera's in a public area can greatly reduce costs of solving crimes; and can make neighborhoods safer.

 

So let me address your "ppl havent seen this yet", as it is very much akin to the people who see the aluminum battery and assume the big box corporations are suppressing the technology.

Your first article - It was compromised because people reused their password (That is like me complaining my bank was hacked when my account password was 123456...proper password choices for sensitive items needs to be in place)

Second article - again similar to the first, it is most likely from password reuse or simple passwords protecting the account.  Given the amount of Ring doorbells out there, a breach in Ring would likely contain a lot more.

Third article - again the same

 

The truth is, if a crime happened police would canvas an area looking to see who has cameras.  They would then first ask for the footage, and if need to compel them with a warrant...this is the case with Ring and offline cameras.  Honestly, this whole Ring thing seems really overblown in my opinion...there are so many other ways you are being tracked; and in this case, I think it is actually having more benefits than drawbacks

[Dnlg]

On 12/18/2019 at 12:02 AM, Caroline said:

This is the fucking sheeps' fault. They wanted cam and mic on everything, even on their toilet seat so they can snapchat themselves whilst having a wank, and now complain? This is next level bs.

But it makes sense to have a camera on your doorbell if you do it the right way. You should just have it locally send you the footage on the phone, no servers required.

[fredrichnietze]

5 hours ago, Dnlg said:

But it makes sense to have a camera on your doorbell if you do it the right way. You should just have it locally send you the footage on the phone, no servers required.

well you do need a server to manage the camera/s, and store the data. and if you dont connect it through the web in any way you wont be able to access the data from your phone when you are not at home, or store a back up in case of fire or in case thieves steel the server to hide their identity's. 

 

web connectivity isnt bad, it's just bad in the way it has been implemented.