200GE - scalability

[Mad153]

Hello,

i am planning to build a raid server soley for backups (maybe a few game files?), with about 1 to 3 (3 being on a very very busy day) people connected at one time, mostly writing to the disk.

I understand people, like Linus put very high end hardware into their NASs, for VM and docker, however:

1) I do not need remote VMs.

2) I cannot find a docker or a plugin which somewhat actually interests me. (except for openVPN, which i plan to run) please leave some suggestions for plugins (Unraid)  

 

it costs £36 ($46) to upgrade to a ryzen 3 3200g and i was worried that while this is a good deal, I do not really need the extra POWER

Do you think the 200GE will do? or should i get a slightly bigger upgrade to the 3000g, or do i need the 3200g?

thanks for being so helpful!

[Fasauceome]

The 3000G is cheaper than the 200GE (in many markets) so consider that

[Mad153]

2 minutes ago, Fasauceome said:

The 3000G is cheaper than the 200GE (in many markets) so consider that

it is about the same in the UK, but i then need to pay £10 for a pre-done bios upgrade.

I couldn't find much data on this however - is the 3000g more efficient, or is it just the performance bump?

thanks

[Fasauceome]

3 minutes ago, Mad153 said:

is the 3000g more efficient, or is it just the performance bump?

thanks

Similar efficiency at stock but you could reduct the clock speeds to get the same performance at lower power

[Mad153]

update:i think i might go with the ryzen 3 3200g as it comes with a wraith cooler, which the 3000g / 200ge does not.

[Mad153]

i know this is slightly the wrong section to ask, but is the wraith stealth really noisy? thanks

[Zando_]

6 minutes ago, Mad153 said:

i know this is slightly the wrong section to ask, but is the wraith stealth really noisy? thanks

Nope. Not unless you gotta slap it to max RPMs, which you won't have to for any stock Ryzens that come with them. I built 4 ITX rigs in Node 304s with 2200Gs (they use the wraith stealth too) and they're inaudible under load. 

[PlayStation 2]

Does the Wraith cooler really matter anyways? I remember the Athlon 200GE's stock fan barely having to run since the motherfucker barely outputs any heat to begin with. Just a small question to OP.

[mariushm]

If it has to be socket AM4, I personally would go with Ryzen 1600 and a 5-10$ video card (plenty on eBay).

 

Otherwise, see any motherboard with 760g chipset (for onboard graphics in chipset) and any socket AM3 cpu (they can be as cheap as 2-3$)

ex

FX-4100 (about 80% the computing power of 200ge) for 18$: https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMD-CPU-FX-Series-FX-4100-Quad-Core-CPU-3-6GHz-Socket-AM3/173778310547

FX-6100 (about 5-10% faster than 200ge) for 30$ : https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMD-Series-FX-4100-FX-4130-FX-4300-FX-6100-FX-6120-FX-9590-AMD-FX-CPU-Processor/133019755021

 

These are 65w TDP processors, they'll probably consume 10-20w more than Ryzens on average, which isn't that much difference.

Motherboards, if you want new ... here's one for 50$:

ASRock 760GM-HDV AM3+/AM3 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard - Newegg.com

eBay has plenty of Gigabyte Gigabyte GA-78LMT-USB3 which are better deal :

(uk seller but cheap even when you include shipping) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gigabyte-GA-78LMT-USB3-REV-4-1-Socket-AM3-Motherboard-With-BP/372869710484

Others, including us sellers: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Gigabyte+GA-78LMT-USB3+&_sacat=0&_sop=15

DDR3 ram is cheap.

 

 

Oh... this is also an OK deal, cpu+mb for 100$ plus shipping : https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMD-Ryzen-3-1300x-With-Gigabyte-GA-A320MA-M-2-Motherboard/401992213776

 

[Mad153]

9 hours ago, handymanshandle said:

Does the Wraith cooler really matter anyways? I remember the Athlon 200GE's stock fan barely having to run since the motherfucker barely outputs any heat to begin with. Just a small question to OP.

i am planning to put it in a cupboard in my house which is in a room where people work and i couldn't find any noise output information about it except for my memories of having that cooler on a fx 8350. It was not quiet or pleasant to have to work with the noise of it.

[Mad153]

9 hours ago, mariushm said:

If it has to be socket AM4, I personally would go with Ryzen 1600 and a 5-10$ video card (plenty on eBay).

 

Otherwise, see any motherboard with 760g chipset (for onboard graphics in chipset) and any socket AM3 cpu (they can be as cheap as 2-3$)

ex

FX-4100 (about 80% the computing power of 200ge) for 18$: https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMD-CPU-FX-Series-FX-4100-Quad-Core-CPU-3-6GHz-Socket-AM3/173778310547

FX-6100 (about 5-10% faster than 200ge) for 30$ : https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMD-Series-FX-4100-FX-4130-FX-4300-FX-6100-FX-6120-FX-9590-AMD-FX-CPU-Processor/133019755021

 

These are 65w TDP processors, they'll probably consume 10-20w more than Ryzens on average, which isn't that much difference.

Motherboards, if you want new ... here's one for 50$:

ASRock 760GM-HDV AM3+/AM3 Micro ATX AMD Motherboard - Newegg.com

eBay has plenty of Gigabyte Gigabyte GA-78LMT-USB3 which are better deal :

(uk seller but cheap even when you include shipping) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gigabyte-GA-78LMT-USB3-REV-4-1-Socket-AM3-Motherboard-With-BP/372869710484

Others, including us sellers: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Gigabyte+GA-78LMT-USB3+&_sacat=0&_sop=15

DDR3 ram is cheap.

 

 

Oh... this is also an OK deal, cpu+mb for 100$ plus shipping : https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMD-Ryzen-3-1300x-With-Gigabyte-GA-A320MA-M-2-Motherboard/401992213776

 

since this is a 24/7 computer, i really want efficiency as i live in the UK where electricity is not cheap.

[PlayStation 2]

Just now, Mad153 said:

i am planning to put it in a cupboard in my house which is in a room where people work and i couldn't find any noise output information about it except for my memories of having that cooler on a fx 8350. It was not quiet or pleasant to have to work with the noise of it.

Eh, that's an FX-8350. Those things weren't even remotely intended to run on those dinky-ass coolers. The 200GE is just about a laptop chip that's able to run at its maximum clock all the time with no effort.

That being said, a 3200G wouldn't hurt in your context.

[Mad153]

11 minutes ago, handymanshandle said:

Eh, that's an FX-8350. Those things weren't even remotely intended to run on those dinky-ass coolers. The 200GE is just about a laptop chip that's able to run at its maximum clock all the time with no effort.

That being said, a 3200G wouldn't hurt in your context.

do you know how noisy the 200ge is at max clock in db or just an assumption?
thanks

[Mad153]

@handymanshandle would you say it sounds like this?

https://youtu.be/_si-TF9udaA?t=67

 

[PlayStation 2]

Just now, Mad153 said:

@handymanshandle would you say it sounds like this?

https://youtu.be/_si-TF9udaA?t=67

 

Almost certainly. Again, it's essentially a laptop chip thrown onto a desktop socket, so it really isn't gonna output much of anything. As such, the fan really won't have to work... at all, frankly.

[mariushm]

2 hours ago, Mad153 said:

since this is a 24/7 computer, i really want efficiency as i live in the UK where electricity is not cheap.

Yeah, but do the math first.

Let's say you're paying 0.15 GBP per kWh (i think it's around 0.13)

Let's say a FX system consumes 60w on average, while a Ryzen system consumes 40w on average:

 

60w x 24h x 365 days = 525.6 kWh = 78.8 GBP

40w x 24h x 365 days = 350.4 kWh = 52.5 GBP

 

Going with Ryzen (if 40w vs 60w) will save you 26.3 GBP

 

Now I can do a build with 20$ CPU + 40$ MB + 20$ RAM = 80$ / 60 UK pounds  or you can make a ryzen for 60$ cpu + 60$ mb + 30$ ram = 150$ / 115 GBP.... so you're spending 50+ GBP more on the hardware. 

It's probably gonna be even cheaper if you have some hardware around or hit ebay (2 GB DDR3 sticks are sometimes 1$ on eBay, for example or you can find them for free on donation sites).

 

It will take you more than 2-3 years of 24/7 usage to recuperate your investment in hardware by reducing your power bill.

 

In 2-3 years, we're probably gonna have 4-10 TB SSDs so you'd thrown away the mechanical drives that each consume 6-8w and replace them with 0.5-1w SSDs.

 

[Mad153]

31 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Let's say a FX system consumes 60w

i thought usually it was more like 80w. (could be wrong)

[mariushm]

Everything adjusts its power consumption depending on load.

A Ryzen 200g will probably go down to around 5w when idle, while a FX 4100 will probably consume 10-15w when idle.

The power jumps up when you're actually doing work... which for a 24/7 computer, it will be for small periods of time (let's say 5-10% of the time)

Ryzen computers have better power management, so they'll go to lower power modes more often, but you're still talking about 10-20w difference.

The power consumption is mostly the hard drives, which will consume 6-8w all the time, unless you let the park their heads, which you could do (configure a 30m-1h delay, if the system is not accessed for this much time, put the drives to sleep.

 

 

Another suggestion I can make, if you really want to save power, is to get a motherboard with DC In connector, as this would allow you to power the PC from a 12v or 19v (depends on MB) power adapter like those laptop chargers, which will have higher efficiency (often above 90%).

It may cost more, but you'll save money by not buying the power supply.

 

For example, a  good deal is Asrock AM1H-ITX , which you can find on eBay for around 60$ :

US Seller: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASRock-AM1H-ITX-AM1-SATA-6Gb-s-USB-3-0-HDMI-Mini-ITX-AMD-Motherboard/254439992840

Chinese : https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASROCK-AM1H-ITX-Motherboard-DDR3-Socket-AM1-Mini-ITX-Mainboard-With-Battery/254385975990

 

The motherboard has a standard 2.5 ID, 5.5 OD DC Jack, 19v+/- 10%, so it will run perfectly fine with any laptop 18.5v 65w laptop adapter:

Here's example of power adapter you could use, from a reputable store:

20 UK pounds : XP Power VEC65US19 -  AC/DC Power Supply 2.5mm ID , 5.5mm OD 1 Output, 65 W, 19 V, 3.42 A

 

Digikey has loads more from around 18$ (but you'll pay a few dollars of shipping), also from well known brands like Delta or LiteOn: https://www.digikey.com/short/p1zzmw

A lot of them have standard AC connector, so you can buy the UK power cable for them, they're not with US plug.
For example see this 21$ Delta adapter: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/delta-electronics/ADP-65JH-HBAN/1145-1140-ND/5250424

 

So anyway, the board is socket AM1 motherboard. AM1 processors weren't particularly great processing power wise, but they're 25w TDP parts. for a NAS they'd be enough.

Look for Sempron 3850 ( quad core 1.3 Ghz), or AMD 5150 / 5350.

The Sempron's around 30$ :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMD-Sempron-3850-processor-1-3-GHz-Box-Quad-Core-Cpu-socket-AM1/273965335219

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMD-Sempron-3850-Quad-Core-Socket-AM1-1-3-GHz-APU-Processor-SD3850JAHMBOX/143466998099

The 5150/5350 are more expensive at around 50$, simply due to the rarity... but remember, you're saving on power supply.

They're about half as powerful as the Athlon 200ge, comparable with FX 4100 etc etc

 

 

You can also look at motherboards with soldered cpu, which don't need cooler to function, which have DC jack.

Here's some examples:

ASRock > J3160TM-ITX

ASRock > J3160DC-ITX

ASRock > N3150TM-ITX

ASRock > N3150DC-ITX

Same 19v dc in connector, same 65w max power requirements.

These processors have about the same processing power as the AM1 solution.

 

 

 

 

[Mad153]

1 hour ago, mariushm said:

Everything adjusts its power consumption depending on load.

A Ryzen 200g will probably go down to around 5w when idle, while a FX 4100 will probably consume 10-15w when idle.

The power jumps up when you're actually doing work... which for a 24/7 computer, it will be for small periods of time (let's say 5-10% of the time)

Ryzen computers have better power management, so they'll go to lower power modes more often, but you're still talking about 10-20w difference.

The power consumption is mostly the hard drives, which will consume 6-8w all the time, unless you let the park their heads, which you could do (configure a 30m-1h delay, if the system is not accessed for this much time, put the drives to sleep.

 

 

Another suggestion I can make, if you really want to save power, is to get a motherboard with DC In connector, as this would allow you to power the PC from a 12v or 19v (depends on MB) power adapter like those laptop chargers, which will have higher efficiency (often above 90%).

It may cost more, but you'll save money by not buying the power supply.

 

For example, a  good deal is Asrock AM1H-ITX , which you can find on eBay for around 60$ :

US Seller: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASRock-AM1H-ITX-AM1-SATA-6Gb-s-USB-3-0-HDMI-Mini-ITX-AMD-Motherboard/254439992840

Chinese : https://www.ebay.com/itm/ASROCK-AM1H-ITX-Motherboard-DDR3-Socket-AM1-Mini-ITX-Mainboard-With-Battery/254385975990

 

The motherboard has a standard 2.5 ID, 5.5 OD DC Jack, 19v+/- 10%, so it will run perfectly fine with any laptop 18.5v 65w laptop adapter:

Here's example of power adapter you could use, from a reputable store:

20 UK pounds : XP Power VEC65US19 -  AC/DC Power Supply 2.5mm ID , 5.5mm OD 1 Output, 65 W, 19 V, 3.42 A

 

Digikey has loads more from around 18$ (but you'll pay a few dollars of shipping), also from well known brands like Delta or LiteOn: https://www.digikey.com/short/p1zzmw

A lot of them have standard AC connector, so you can buy the UK power cable for them, they're not with US plug.
For example see this 21$ Delta adapter: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/delta-electronics/ADP-65JH-HBAN/1145-1140-ND/5250424

 

So anyway, the board is socket AM1 motherboard. AM1 processors weren't particularly great processing power wise, but they're 25w TDP parts. for a NAS they'd be enough.

Look for Sempron 3850 ( quad core 1.3 Ghz), or AMD 5150 / 5350.

The Sempron's around 30$ :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMD-Sempron-3850-processor-1-3-GHz-Box-Quad-Core-Cpu-socket-AM1/273965335219

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AMD-Sempron-3850-Quad-Core-Socket-AM1-1-3-GHz-APU-Processor-SD3850JAHMBOX/143466998099

The 5150/5350 are more expensive at around 50$, simply due to the rarity... but remember, you're saving on power supply.

They're about half as powerful as the Athlon 200ge, comparable with FX 4100 etc etc

 

 

You can also look at motherboards with soldered cpu, which don't need cooler to function, which have DC jack.

Here's some examples:

ASRock > J3160TM-ITX

ASRock > J3160DC-ITX

ASRock > N3150TM-ITX

ASRock > N3150DC-ITX

Same 19v dc in connector, same 65w max power requirements.

These processors have about the same processing power as the AM1 solution.

 

 

 

 

while this is a great idea, i wonder why i've never heard of it...

[mariushm]

5 minutes ago, Mad153 said:

while this is a great idea, i wonder why i've never heard of it...

They weren't so popular, and were soon replaced by socket FM1 and FM2 but there's very few motherboards which have DC In connector for those sockets.

AM1 processors also have a single channel memory controller, which slowed down the integrated graphics performance, making them bad for games. Also, the integrated graphics lacked hardware decoding of some formats (like 4K h264, VP9 etc) so they weren't so popular for HTPC purposes either. 

FM2 processors released a bit later were much better and consumed just a bit more power.

During that time, there were also the AM3/AM3+ motherboards with 760g or 780g chipsets which had integrated graphics inside the chipsets, so a lot of people didn't see the point of them.

 

Still, performance wise, these AM1 processors are not bad, they're much better than any Atom processor, and they're comparable with the Intel J1900, N3150 etc etc

For a NAS / unRaid box, they're quite good.

 

For you, the power using a passive laptop adapter thing would be great. The only fan would be the one on the cpu, and even that could be replaced by installing a passive heatsink, like this one for example: https://www.amazon.com/ARCTIC-Alpine-M1-Whisper-installation/dp/B00U8PUNH2

 

 

There are some Intel boards which can be powered using a 12v power adapter, but you really have to dig to find them.

Some don't have a DC in barrel jack, but have a 2 pin or 4 pin connector similar to cpu 4 pin connector, where 1-2 pins are ground, and 1-2 pins are power (12v)... so you can easily take the power from a laptop adapter and connect it to those pins. 

 

 

[Mad153]

i think i will end up using a 200ge as it performs about the same as the 3000g and the 3200g is too overkill. Although i will look into using laptop power supplies and dc motherboards.

if i do end up wanting to run some dockers (probably never plex though due to the legality of where you get the media from), maybe a small web server and probably a vpn, will the 200GE leave enough space?