China face recognition laws come into force.

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, Trik'Stari said:

That's not a democracy, that's an aristocracy at best.

 

Also, this is a government actively engaged in genocide so.... yeah no. Nothing about the chinese government is tolerable.

Then there are a lot of aristocracies that call themselves democracies.  Israel is one.  The USA is another.  Basically any country where voting citizenship is not offered in some fashion.  Before sufferage the non voting population of the US was well above 50%.  It’s still significant, though far below that now.

[Bombastinator]

16 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The problem for china though is that there is no current alternative.  A true democracy will destroy the country,  even just freedom of speech will tear it apart. 

 

Look at the USA right now with freedom of speech and all those left extremists who are succeeding in having certain gender language considered in the same vein as racial bigotry and nazi propaganda.  What about the university rallies that shut down events where specific people are invited to speak just because they don't like what is being said. 

 

Now amplify that problem by a factor of 4 and make it about the country fighting itself over who should be in control and tell me how long it will survive before it is in absolute ruin.

 

That is why the Chinese government is so heavy handed on controlling information and why they are taking so long to become a true democracy.  

I would agree that the current Swiss style voting system the party uses now would be totally untenable were  all it’s citizenry to excrecize franchise.

It  is very near its breaking point as it is.  Switzerland gets away with it because they have far fewer people.

 

the US split itself into many sections and developed a tier system to avoid this problem. (The exact reasons this was done is a matter of conjecture, but the effect is not)

It still didn’t work.  There was the American civil war.

 

China has to figure out something clever, and it has to work the first time or there will be big problems.

[williamcll]

1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

i personally would only move to China if I could become a party member.

Last time I checked there isn't a lot of things stopping you from doing that.

 

They would be cautious though since you are a foreigner.

[Bombastinator]

6 minutes ago, williamcll said:

Last time I checked there isn't a lot of things stopping you from doing that.

 

They would be cautious though since you are a foreigner.

I don’t know what the requirements of party membership are.  I do understand it is or was invitation only.  Going in as a second (or as it sounds like from reports thrid) class citizen and hoping that I would be one day “blessed” is offensive to me.  Any information I have is 40 years or more old.  Once upon a time it was through recommendation by teachers.  For all I know it’s entirely corrupt and hereditary by now.

[amdorintel]

6 hours ago, Caroline said:

It's bad when China uses it but it's great when western countries use it to "prevent terrorism" or when facebook adds the option to tag you in pictures and "prevent identity theft"

 

 

I love your sarcasm!

 

The lies our government tells us, to make us "safer"

i wont bother looking for the emoji of the middle finger. Pffffffffft @ governments

 

 

 

btw as far as i know, no foreigner can become a citizen of China!

[Bombastinator]

Just now, amdorintel said:

I love your sarcasm!

 

The lies our government tells us, to make us "safer"

i wont bother looking for the emoji of the middle finger. Pffffffffft @ governments

That instance isn’t government, it’s corporate. Google is not the government quite yet.

[amdorintel]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

That instance isn’t government, it’s corporate. Google is not the government quite yet.

well public would never know anyways would they!

sure as shit gov't got their greedy hands on something, nsa spying, csis spying.

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, amdorintel said:

well public would never know anyways would they!

sure as shit gov't got their greedy hands on something, nsa spying, csis spying.

Google spying, Facebook spying. Espionage is espionage.  The government agencies have checks on what they can do.  The corporations don’t.  The government agencies have known agendas based on whatever their mandate is.  The corporations have one too: make as much “money as possible, and have absolutely no ethical qualms about any action.”  It’s a legal mandate too.  Corporate Executives can be punished for violating it.  Several have been.

 

i find the latter orders of magnitude more terrifying than the former.  The former is still terrifying though.

[amdorintel]

9 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

 The government agencies have checks on what they can do.

well most govt agencies but not all, lots of clandestine action going on in the government, lots and lots.

 

 

[Bombastinator]

23 minutes ago, amdorintel said:

well most govt agencies but not all, lots of clandestine action going on in the government, lots and lots.

 

 

Not saying there isn’t.  Still, it’s not Alexa though.

[williamcll]

46 minutes ago, amdorintel said:

I love your sarcasm!

 

The lies our government tells us, to make us "safer"

i wont bother looking for the emoji of the middle finger. Pffffffffft @ governments

 

 

 

btw as far as i know, no foreigner can become a citizen of China!

Hard but not impossible
source:https://www.internations.org/go/moving-to-china/visas-work-permits/how-to-get-citizenship-in-china

Quote

However, if you are planning to settle in China for good and further travel is not in your plans, naturalization might be perfect for you. Equip yourself with patience and persistence and file your Chinese citizenship application format your local embassy. In order to do so, you will need to present the following documents:

• birth certificate
• proof of the qualifying clause (e.g.: relationship with the near relative)
• passport or other travel documents
• additional documents (letters of employment, schools attended, tax returns, or other proofs of residence)

China’s citizenship fees add up to 250 CNY, with 50 CNY for the application and 200 CNY for the certificate itself.

Note that once you have decided to apply for Chinese citizenship, you will have to give up your citizen’s rights in other countries as China does not recognize multiple citizenships.

 

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, williamcll said:

Hard but not impossible
source:https://www.internations.org/go/moving-to-china/visas-work-permits/how-to-get-citizenship-in-china

 

So second class citizen ship that is effective third class citizenship in exchange for a first class one with the bare suggestion that I might one day possibly gain first class.  No promises no information. 
Nope.  So much nope.  Maybe if it was the only way to stay alive.  That’s about it though.

[williamcll]

32 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

So second class citizen ship that is effective third class citizenship in exchange for a first class one with the bare suggestion that I might one day possibly gain first class.  No promises no information. 
Nope.  So much nope.  Maybe if it was the only way to stay alive.  That’s about it though.

You could always go to Macau, all the socialeconmic benefits of a SAR but none of the political unstability.

[Devin92]

On 12/1/2019 at 6:39 AM, Taf the Ghost said:

Mass scale surveillance doesn't stop crime. It never has and it never will.

How so? So airplane should not have security check? ATM machine should not have a video camera?

[Bombastinator]

13 minutes ago, Devin92 said:

How so? So airplane should not have security check? ATM machine should not have a video camera?

He’s using a very narrow definition of the word “stop” I think that avoids either prevention through fear of apprehension or apprehension after the fact.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, amdorintel said:

that is so true, facebook, google, microsoft, cell phone apps the list is long

 

 

 

well you bring up a good point, because i know in the uk they have automatic license plate readers which tracks vehicles

in canada they are utilizing blue tooth signals to give out drive times on inter-city roadways

and those cameras atop intersection lights

cameras on the transit system, which now some trains, the newer ones record whats being said

i knew one guy you came in on the train, rainy day and put his feet up on the seat, he looked a little dirty and the security camera monitor told him to put his feet down. its becoming a nanny state everywhere, in canada, in the united states. airports, border crossings, even the traffic maids have automatic license plate readers to ticket you.

 

china, man they are spying on everyone all the time. who knows what secret tracking systems they have in place over there that is labelled top secret. now with the hong kong incident they are cracking down hard, which is why i believe they are now implementing the facial rec laws.

Here in the UK we have CCTV in almost every place there is a shop, bank or where lots of people will be. Some are manned and others not, but it is there. Some are using facial recognition already, especially at big events such as football, concerts etc. ANPR is the system used for tracking car number plates and is present on most major roads and many smaller roads. The system is not perfect but works very well and is constantly being improved. We have a lot more eyes on us than we think. We use our debit and credit cards to get on tubes, busses, to pay for things etc which can all be tracked. We use loyalty cards which mean we are not only tracked but are used to profile us. Our mobile phones are constantly feeding back information, just use the traffic screen on Google Maps and you will see that, the info comes from us, from our gps enabled mobile phones which can also be tracked. 

[PCGuy_5960]

Yikes. All that I can say is, I hope this shit never comes to any western countries.

[Bombastinator]

10 hours ago, williamcll said:

You could always go to Macau, all the socialeconmic benefits of a SAR but none of the political unstability.

Portuguese Hong  Kong on an island.  Hong Kong is the only other SAR and it isn’t doing so well.  I suspect the days of SARs are numbered.  From the sound of things I wouldn’t be able to afford it anyway.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macau

[Bombastinator]

13 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Yikes. All that I can say is, I hope this shit never comes to any western countries.

Tell that to Siri.  It already has.  It’s merely in the hands of corporations.  Arguably an even worse place than the government.  Both are bad though.

[PCGuy_5960]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Tell that to Siri.  It already has.  It’s merely in the hands of corporations.  Arguably an even worse place than the government.  Both are bad though.

Sure, Siri or alexa may be recording your data, but they aren't removing your access to their services because you said or did something apple or amazon doesn't like. (Hopefully that won't change in the future though) The social credit part of this whole thing is the scariest.

[Bombastinator]

Just now, PCGuy_5960 said:

Sure, Siri or alexa may be recording your data, but they aren't removing your access to their services because you said or did something apple or amazon doesn't like. (Hopefully that won't change in the future though) The social credit part of this whole thing is the scariest.

Well they haven’t yet at any rate.  Their services aren’t the main concern.  Of course they wouldn’t remove the service.  That removes the surveillance.  Other things are more important
 

For example They could tell who you’re going to vote for or whether you are sick though probably and sell that information to someone who wants to deny a pertinent service to you.  HIPA laws are a stop gap for that, health wise, but they’re not all encompassing.  They have the power to cost someone a job, healthcare, or the ability to vote.  Much more control than a government service would be allowed.  They’re very careful about not publicly actually doing any of that.  The repercussions could cost money.  They have the capacity though.  And the mandate.

[PCGuy_5960]

3 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Well they haven’t yet at any rate.  Their services aren’t the main concern.  Of course they wouldn’t remove the service.  That removes the surveillance.  Other things are more important
 

For example They could tell who you’re going to vote for or whether you are sick though probably and sell that information to someone who wants to deny a pertinent service to you.  HIPA laws are a stop gap for that, health wise, but they’re not all encompassing.  They have the power to cost someone a job, healthcare, or the ability to vote.  Much more control than a government service would be allowed.  They’re very careful about not publicly actually doing any of that.  The repercussions could cost money.  They have the capacity though.  And the mandate.

Agreed, stricter privacy laws are starting to become necessary. GDPR was a step in the right direction. (At least for EU)

[Mark Kaine]

On 12/2/2019 at 5:32 AM, amdorintel said:

I love your sarcasm!

 

The lies our government tells us, to make us "safer"

i wont bother looking for the emoji of the middle finger. Pffffffffft @ governments

 

 

 

btw as far as i know, no foreigner can become a citizen of China!

There goes my dream to marry my rl Chinese waifu and become an upright Chinese citizen... ~

 

 

 

Edit: of course,  like so many other things people "know" about China this is incorrect

 

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-process-to-become-a-Chinese-citizen

 

[Bombastinator]

9 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

There goes my dream to marry my rl Chinese waifu and become an upright Chinese citizen... ~

mispost

[Bombastinator]

On 12/1/2019 at 10:32 PM, amdorintel said:

I love your sarcasm!

 

The lies our government tells us, to make us "safer"

i wont bother looking for the emoji of the middle finger. Pffffffffft @ governments

 

 

 

btw as far as i know, no foreigner can become a citizen of China!

The definition of “citizen” is the issue. There is “citizen” which means has a passport but isn’t franchised. effectively a second class citizen.  And because they’re a foreigner another peg, so third class.  Then there’s “party member” which may be considered to be a franchised citizen.  Party members have additional powers and responsibilities so the comparison isn’t totally accurate, but it’s not inaccurate either.

99%+ of Chinese are second class Citizens.

 

Its not totally different in the US.  We’ve got a 1% too defined generally by inherited wealth.  They get different educations, experience the world differently, and have what is effectively a different and far looser set of laws and standards to adhere to.

 

there is an argument I suppose from the Chinese perspective that a franchised citizen in the US is a second class citizen too.  The American perspective tends to be different though.  They view their franchise as defining themselves as first class citizens even though less than half of them actually exercise it.