? Tesla Truck Kinda Edgy Tho - Tesla releases oddly polygonal pickup truck

[Bombastinator]

17 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

You can have a part suddenly go pop and instantly disable an ICE as well, there is literally no bigger risk in an EV of sudden breakdown than any other vehicle type. 

My favorite is the “throw a rod” bit where a hole suddenly appears in your hood because your engine just shot a burning hot piece of metal out like a cannon

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

My favorite is the “throw a rod” bit where a hole suddenly appears in your hood because your engine just shot a burning hot piece of metal out like a cannon

Or the thing just won't start one morning and it could be the:

 

the TPS

the accelerator sender

the ECU

the EGS

the MAF

the MAP

the ICM

the fuel pump

anyone of the multiple safety sensors that shut down the engine in the event of dirty fuel, over heat, clogged DPF etc etc etc

or any one of the million fuses, fusible links or relays in the damn thing and you need a $9000 scanner to know what it is let alone where it is.

 

 

 

 

[atxcyclist]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Or the thing just won't start one morning and it could be the:

 

the TPS

the accelerator sender

the ECU

the EGS

the MAF

the MAP

the ICM

the fuel pump

anyone of the multiple safety sensors that shut down the engine in the event of dirty fuel, over heat, clogged DPF etc etc etc

or any one of the million fuses, fusible links or relays in the damn thing and you need a $9000 scanner to know what it is let alone where it is.

 

 

 

 

 

If you actually pay attention to your car, these things realistically do not happen without warning. Sensors give false readings and throw a code long before it's catastrophic, even TPS and pedal position sensors get a "dead spot" generally, before they fail. Fuel pumps get noisy or you get hard starts before they give up completely, ECUs almost never fail on cars that are not ancient or have user-caused wiring shorts. Also, most of those problems will put you in a limp mode and/or just throw a code. My $65 scan tool does enough to tell me what I'm dealing with.

 

The problem is that many people don't take care of their cars, don't change fluids at manufacturer intervals, don't replace worn parts, don't pay attention to noises or smells, or stare at a check engine or other fault lamp like a moron for several months until something really expensive fails. That's not a fault of the technology, purely operator error. I've owned many cars and several motorcycles, driven over a half million miles between them all, never been stranded once. Keeping fresh fluids, brakes, a decent battery, and not operating an engine at the redline all the time mitigates nearly all problems. Also, don't buy European because they're tragic after a few years.

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, atxcyclist said:

 

If you actually pay attention to your car, these things realistically do not happen without warning. Sensors give false readings and throw a code long before it's catastrophic, even TPS and pedal position sensors get a "dead spot" generally, before they fail. Fuel pumps get noisy or you get hard starts before they give up completely, ECUs almost never fail on cars that are not ancient or have user-caused wiring shorts. Also, most of those problems will put you in a limp mode and/or just throw a code. My $65 scan tool does enough to tell me what I'm dealing with.

 

The problem is that many people don't take care of their cars, don't change fluids at manufacturer intervals, don't replace worn parts, don't pay attention to noises or smells, or stare at a check engine or other fault lamp like a moron for several months until something really expensive fails. That's not a fault of the technology, purely operator error. I've owned many cars and several motorcycles, driven over a half million miles between them all, never been stranded once. Keeping fresh fluids, brakes, a decent battery, and not operating an engine at the redline all the time mitigates nearly all problems. Also, don't buy European because they're tragic after a few years.

You are talking to a very experienced back yard mechanic who has been maintaining/repairing cars for the better part of 25 years.  I have had cars just die, as do many new car owners.  It is not some mythical experience that only occurs in EV's (if it even does to the same degree).

 

EDIT: here is a list of things that can just stop without warning of any description:

 

Timing belt snap

petrol pump ceased or blown

crank angle sensor failure

coil pack failure

ECU failure

fusible link failure

engine disable due to corrupt sensor or dirty fuel

 

 

Note I said "can" and not exclusively does.  Which is the only point that I made and the only point that needs to be made.

 

 

[atxcyclist]

Just now, mr moose said:

You are talking to a very experienced back yard mechanic who has been maintaining/repairing cars for the better part of 25 years.  I have had cars just die, as do many new car owners.  It is not some mythical experience that only occurs in EV's (if it even does to the same degree).

 

 

I'm not saying it only occurs in EVs or is even as likely on an EV, just that it's grossly misrepresented and almost propaganda in the discussion of EV vehicles, this idea that internal combustion vehicles are inherently unreliable due to their design. People ignore their vehicles and that causes failures, and most people won't even change their oil regularly. I'm also one of those backyard mechanics, with roughly 20 years of experience on everything from Kias to exotics. I've personally never had a car just die without a warning, but I also fully maintain mine and don't buy garbage. A malfunction indicator, noise, smell, hard start, rough idle, and etc., there's always a sign before something goes wrong. When pressed, anyone I've turned a wrench for admitted there was something they noticed but ignored before their car had a failure. Not trying to discredit your experience, just saying when a car is maintained correctly I almost never see failures of non-scheduled-serviced items. EVs have less systems to go wrong, but people will still wear their brake pads down to the backers and tires down to the belts, because most people just don't care.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, atxcyclist said:

I'm not saying it only occurs in EVs or is even as likely on an EV, just that it's grossly misrepresented and almost propaganda in the discussion of EV vehicles, this idea that internal combustion vehicles are inherently unreliable due to their design. People ignore their vehicles and that causes failures, and most people won't even change their oil regularly. I'm also one of those backyard mechanics, with roughly 20 years of experience on everything from Kias to exotics. I've personally never had a car just die without a warning, but I also fully maintain mine and don't buy garbage. A malfunction indicator, noise, smell, hard start, rough idle, and etc., there's always a sign before something goes wrong. When pressed, anyone I've turned a wrench for admitted there was something they noticed but ignored before their car had a failure. Not trying to discredit your experience, just saying when a car is maintained correctly I almost never see failures of non-scheduled-serviced items. EVs have less systems to go wrong, but people will still wear their brake pads down to the backers and tires down to the belts, because most people just don't care.

 

The person I was responding to was arguing that EV (being all electric) will just fail with no warning as if that is a trait only EV's have or makes them worse in some way.  Hence my list of things that can go wrong on an ICE without warning.  I was in now way trying to argue that ICE is less reliable, only that they aren't immune to instant failure. 

 

A broken timing belt is a really good example of this, because a premature failure there can be very costly and very rarely are there signs it will fail.  At least with electronic parts (regardless what motor they are on) you can replace them and be on your way.

[TechyBen]

19 hours ago, Drak3 said:

And? The car wasn’t dug in at any point, and the mud was a fairly thin layer. All you’ve shown me is a Tesla driving on an ever so slightly slippery dirt road. Not an EV going off road.

 

Nor is snow driving the same as mud. Snow compacts under the tire and gives it something more solid to grab on to.

Didn’t say either of those things, don’t put words in my mouth.

Every vehicle will get stuck. ICE off roaders are very likely better at getting unstuck.

You have no idea what you are on about. Sorry, not to be offensive. But what on earth are you on about. You somehow "know" the torque curves of every electric motor, gearbox and control system of every EV ever made?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-la-motor-show/electric-bollinger-b1-and-b2-4x4s-come-europe-and-uk

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a10375356/this-electric-truck-is-the-future-of-off-roading/

Nope. That above image is entirely fabricated and fake. Those wheels, they'd fall through the ground. Because electric motors are metal, and that's heavy and ICE cars are rubber, and light... see, I can be that pedantic and obtuse too!!!

 

 

OR you can realise, torque curves can be adjusted, can be geared, can be pulsed (software controlled voltage/amps/rotor management/stator adjustment etc) to fit the torque required.

[Drak3]

Just now, TechyBen said:

OR you can realise, torque curves can be adjusted, can be geared, can be pulsed (software controlled voltage/amps/rotor management/stator adjustment etc) to fit the torque required.

So, what I already said. Got it. Except that, by their very nature, electric motors produce more torque at lower RPM.

 

Also, your video still does not address what I said. They're still running those vehicles on hard ground, with (At worst) a thin layer of loose soil on top.

[TechyBen]

14 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

So, what I already said. Got it. Except that, by their very nature, electric motors produce more torque at lower RPM.

 

Also, your video still does not address what I said. They're still running those vehicles on hard ground, with (At worst) a thin layer of loose soil on top.

Aaaand? Aircraft have less stability at low altitude. Does not mean it's "impossible" to fly.

Electric motor, high torque low RPM, does not == "impossible to get out of mud or manage torque curve".

 

Prove it's impossible to manage the torque curve. As said. A LOT of vehicles can be electric driven, and many old ones were from ICE engine generators.

 

These:

Are:

Solved:

 

 

"Problems":

 

I see none of those stuck in mud.

[Drak3]

2 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

I see none of those stuck in mud.

Because none of them went in mud.

[TechyBen]

3 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Because none of them went in mud.

REALLY?

 

I'm done.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, TechyBen said:

REALLY?

 

I'm done.

I wouldn't constitute dry, loose top soil, non compact frozen water, or a rock bed as mud.

So far, the BEST case you've presented is a car going through a slightly muddy back road.

[Drak3]

8 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

"Range Anxiety" was an invented marketing term to try to shame people into buying vehicles that were a significant loss of utility at significantly higher price. Use of the phrase is either a sign you're using a Strawman Argument or you're ignoring that the term was rolled out before there were charging networks or a car that could do 150 miles on a single charge. That's not "anxiety", it's called "not being stupid". 

For some people, it's not a question about range with the truck ran stock, either. The use of winches and power inverters isn't super uncommon.

 

And you can very quickly eat up a power budget if your use case requires frequent use of either.

[TechyBen]

2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

I wouldn't constitute dry, loose top soil, non compact frozen water, or a rock bed as mud.

So far, the BEST case you've presented is a car going through a slightly muddy back road.

And I present, you have a stolen red teapot orbiting the sun. Now go prove it is not true.

[Drak3]

14 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

"impossible to get out of mud

I also never actually said this. I said that EVs will have a harder time getting out.

 

 

So, if you can't stop putting words in my mouth, don't quote me.

[Blademaster91]

18 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Aaaand? Aircraft have less stability at low altitude. Does not mean it's "impossible" to fly.

Electric motor, high torque low RPM, does not == "impossible to get out of mud or manage torque curve".

 

Prove it's impossible to manage the torque curve. As said. A LOT of vehicles can be electric driven, and many old ones were from ICE engine generators.

-snip-

I see none of those stuck in mud.

Except all of those are purpose built to go off road, we don't even know yet if the cybertruck has any sort of gear reduction to manage the low end torque.

[Taf the Ghost]

14 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

For some people, it's not a question about range with the truck ran stock, either. The use of winches and power inverters isn't super uncommon.

 

And you can very quickly eat up a power budget if your use case requires frequent use of either.

Actual tow range is going to be interesting. As Doug DeMurro pointed out, specs actually make the Cybertruck a "tweener". High-end Light Duty capacity at Heavy Duty cost. And potentially being mocked if you show up with it. Doug really didn't like the styling.

[Drak3]

Just now, Taf the Ghost said:

Actual tow range is going to be interesting.

I expect a 30-50% loss, like other Teslas.

 

[Taf the Ghost]

4 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Except all of those are purpose built to go off road, we don't even know yet if the cybertruck has any sort of gear reduction to manage the low end torque.

I do look forward to the interesting approach they'll need to take to simulate locking a diff. With the ground clearance they're advertising, it kind of screams to take it off road. And then we get to watch Yuppies try to 4x4. YouTube is going to be great in the launch window of the Cybertruck. On the assumption it's still there.

 

I'd still recommend getting a used Raptor and a Tesla PowerWall + Solar Panel installation over the Cybertruck, however.

[Blademaster91]

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

You can have a part suddenly go pop and instantly disable an ICE as well, there is literally no bigger risk in an EV of sudden breakdown than any other vehicle type. 

I think they're also referring to the problem some Tesla cars are having, the flash storage fails in the ECU,and bricks the whole car. When a part in a EV suddenly goes pop you have no warning of anything going bad, unlike a ICE car where you'll have the engine not starting if the fuel pump is failing, or the engine running like sh*t if a coil pack or weird throttle if the TPS is failing.

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

The person I was responding to was arguing that EV (being all electric) will just fail with no warning as if that is a trait only EV's have or makes them worse in some way.  Hence my list of things that can go wrong on an ICE without warning.  I was in now way trying to argue that ICE is less reliable, only that they aren't immune to instant failure. 

 

A broken timing belt is a really good example of this, because a premature failure there can be very costly and very rarely are there signs it will fail.  At least with electronic parts (regardless what motor they are on) you can replace them and be on your way.

What modern car still uses a timing belt though? Most modern engines use a timing chain, those last as long as the engine will as long as you follow the maintenance schedule, but good luck getting Tesla parts,as they act more like Apple and want you in their dealer shops or only allow approved mechanics to do any service.

[Commodus]

1 minute ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Actual tow range is going to be interesting. As Doug DeMurro pointed out, specs actually make the Cybertruck a "tweener". High-end Light Duty capacity at Heavy Duty cost. And potentially being mocked if you show up with it. Doug really didn't like the styling.

I feel he overlooked the cost factors, though.  Even if you don't get subsidies on the truck (some states will have their own incentives, I know the feds' incentives are running out), it's still less expensive to run.  So in practice, I'd say it's a light-duty truck at light-duty prices, if likely at the higher end of the scale... just without the emissions.

[Taf the Ghost]

5 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

I expect a 30-50% loss, like other Teslas.

 

 

At 30%, the single motor is basically worthless for any type of trip that isn't local or trailering a SkiDoo. The Dual motor gets dropped hard at 50% with any type of real load. The 3-motor always looked like the spec that would actually be a potentially solid product. (Minus a Suburban shopper.) 

 

Tesla needs to sell "Battery Cans".

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I think they're also referring to the problem some Tesla cars are having, the flash storage fails in the ECU,and bricks the whole car. When a part in a EV suddenly goes pop you have no warning of anything going bad, unlike a ICE car where you'll have the engine not starting if the fuel pump is failing, or the engine running like sh*t if a coil pack or weird throttle if the TPS is failing.

What modern car still uses a timing belt though? Most modern engines use a timing chain, those last as long as the engine will as long as you follow the maintenance schedule, but good luck getting Tesla parts,as they act more like Apple and want you in their dealer shops or only allow approved mechanics to do any service.

ICE do the same thing.

 The only thing that keeps it from happening more fully is constant battles by independent mechanics.  Modern engines are near impossible to work on without manuals and specialized equipment and getting it is always a fight.

volkswagon was a major offender for a while. Still might be.  Parts could only be gotten from and installed by dealerships.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Taf the Ghost said:

The 3-motor always looked like the spec that would actually be a potentially solid product.

Meh. Any electrical addons have a bigger consequence on this truck.

Whereas most fossil fuel trucks can be upfitted with high end winches, power inverters, power steps, etc. and act as high capacity generators for quite a long time. It's not even that hard to upgrade the electrical system if you're looking at higher draw items. But it's not something you can do with an EV without either sacrificing range or hauling and running a generator.

[Drak3]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Modern engines are near impossible to work on without manuals and specialized equipment and getting it is always a fight.

If you're a quitter, sure.

 

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Parts could only be gotten from and installed by dealerships.

No. Dealerships are the second worst option, beaten out only by the scumlord mechanics that setup in rundown areas and keep everything looking rundown (including themselves).