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Ryan_Vickers

Google Stadia in desperate need of promised "negative latency" mode

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Reviews are starting to pop up about Google's new service, and they're not good: https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/reviews/unplayable-times-magical-others-stadias-dream-is-still-clouds/

Quote

But moments are fleeting, and latency on Google Stadia — the time difference between your finger pressing a button and the game reacting to it — lasts longer, and leaves a more lasting impression. In fact, it sometimes renders games unplayable. The service can and will likely improve, and already has during the early review period. But that’s the key difference between buying Stadia and just investing in gaming hardware. Google is selling a service — and services can be unreliable.

 

Here we can see a game tested using Google Stadia on PC and I dare anyone to call this playable:

1.gif.b742cd8ef8364e6f1234d59595578077.gif

I measured the first jump at ~650 ms.

 

Mobile is not much better (though the article disagrees for some reason).  See for yourself:

2.gif.fed80e181e6c8289cc097daa3b044460.gif

I measured this at 270 ms in photoshop.  Yes it's better, but still completely unusable.

 

As they say, it's early days and there is opportunity to improve, but it just goes to show this is not a miracle product and still suffers from all the pitfalls of game streaming, most notably at this time, latency.

 

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So it's a problem regardless of your Internet connection latency? That looks pretty awful even to me who often do couch gaming on a TV with game pad.

 

And to think their negative latency technology could end up being like nVidia DLSS... great on paper but with a failed execution that only worsens everything... seems like local hardware is still staying around for a good while before we're ready for fully "cloud gaming".


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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, Princess Luna said:

So it's a problem regardless of your Internet connection latency? That looks pretty awful even to me who often do couch gaming on a TV with game pad.

 

And to think their negative latency technology could end up being like nVidia DLSS... great on paper but with a failed execution that only worsens everything... seems like local hardware is still staying around for a good while before we're ready for fully "cloud gaming".

Yeah this was tested on the source's gigabit corporate connection.  If that's not enough I'd not expect many home users to be able to do better.  Certainly bandwidth and latency are different things but I expect they aren't running off a satellite.

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I don't see how Stadia can work. You are buying full price games (old games too), which are cheaper elsewhere, and if Google cancels the service (like cancel many other things at the sign of any trouble instead of investing) then you just lost 60$ US Its gone, you have nothing.

 

At least with Microsoft's streaming service (Project xCloud), albeit in beta, you pay a flat monthly fee, Netflix style, and you play what you want in the available lib of games.

 

Yes, I know that both have latency issues, but the business model of Google, makes no sense to even get attention.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I don't see how Stadia can work. You are buying full price games (old games too), which are cheaper elsewhere, and if Google cancels the service (like cancel many other things at the sign of any trouble instead of investing) then you just lost 60$ US Its gone, you have nothing.

 

At least with Microsoft's streaming service (Project xCloud), albeit in beta, you pay a flat monthly fee, Netflix style, and you play what you want in the available lib of games.

 

Yes, I know that both have latency issues, but the business model of Google, makes no sense to even get attention.

Yeah ti's definitely a concern that this could just disappear overnight, and then what for people who paid?

Quote

The other games like Red Dead Redemption 2? You still need to buy them separately, albeit at a discounted price. Red Dead Redemption 2 is the best title at launch, but it’s over a year old and still sells at the launch price of $60. It’s hard to imagine the player who really wanted to play Red Dead Redemption 2 and lacked the resources to play it a year ago, but who would pony up $129 to play it on Stadia today.

Quote

Google promised to commit to Stadia, mentioning other successful products like Gmail and the Play Store to engender some faith. But it’s also hard to ignore the literal digital graveyard of past Google efforts. A website called KilledByGoogle.com lists 156 services, 18 apps and 16 hardware ideas scrapped by the company.

Even if it sticks around though, providing a much worse experience for much higher prices has never rarely been a successful business model.  If they're smart they may be able to pull it off, but it's far from a foregone conclusion.

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3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I don't see how Stadia can work. You are buying full price games (old games too), which are cheaper elsewhere, and if Google cancels the service (like cancel many other things at the sign of any trouble instead of investing) then you just lost 60$ US Its gone, you have nothing.

 

At least with Microsoft's streaming service (Project xCloud), albeit in beta, you pay a flat monthly fee, Netflix style, and you play what you want in the available lib of games.

 

Yes, I know that both have latency issues, but the business model of Google, makes no sense to even get attention.

Stadia will work in South Korea, Tokyo, a few Major USA cities and, possibly, the places with early 5G. That's about going to be it. That's always been the case with this tech. MS & Sony all know it's an "add-on" tech for high population areas and useful in things like adventure games & what not.

 

Google is in this because they see the revenue. Total world-wide gaming revenue is larger than Google's own revenue and, also, here to stay. (Probably longer than Google.) They want a piece of the pie and to get in something early. Problem is they're going to address it like Google does: with questionable intentions and little follow through. 

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3 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Yeah ti's definitely a concern that this could just disappear overnight, and then what for people who paid?

Even if it sticks around though, providing a much worse experience for much higher prices has never rarely been a successful business model.  If they're smart they may be able to pull it off, but it's far from a foregone conclusion.

Google is making the perfect "break into Mobile Gaming" service and trying to sell it to console gamers. It seems like they either don't understand where this tech would work well or they do and simply are using "gamers" to Beta Test it for them.

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11 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Yeah this was tested on the source's gigabit corporate connection.  If that's not enough I'd not expect many home users to be able to do better.  Certainly bandwidth and latency are different things but I expect they aren't running off a satellite.

The ArsTechnica review didn't have issues with latency on Ethernet, only on WiFI. Another point of potential delay is packet inspection done by firewalls. I don't know how aggressive the source's corporate firewall is but that could potentially be a cause.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
6 minutes ago, 2FA said:

The ArsTechnica review didn't have issues with latency on Ethernet, only on WiFI. Another point of potential delay is packet inspection done by firewalls. I don't know how aggressive the source's corporate firewall is but that could potentially be a cause.

For anyone interested, the link is here as far as I can tell: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/11/google-stadia-might-be-gamings-future-but-in-the-present-it-looks-rough/

 

Unfortunately, I can take their claims with a grain of salt at best.  They included no video to prove the latency claims, and (I believe for good reason) I make a point of never trusting anyone's subjective opinion of performance, whether it's "enough fps", "smooth with no stutter", or "no perceptible latency", reason being a) I think many people are not up to my standard, and b) frankly I wouldn't even trust myself because these things can sometimes be hard to measure without an objective reading.  For further reasoning, just consider the Washington Post article where they called the mobile experience "barely any latency", despite the fact it's clearly unplayable.

 

For all I know perhaps Ars really did have a good time, but I can't know that for certain based on the content of their review.

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What a rollercoaster, good god.

This went from nothing to OMG THE FUTURE and then to OMG TRASH in record time.

I have never seen something getting so much hype so quickly and then see it gone as quickly as it came, like it's insane.

 

Not mad tho, most of us expected this for good reason. Cloud is just not the future for everything.


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Posted · Original PosterOP
3 minutes ago, samcool55 said:

What a rollercoaster, good god.

This went from nothing to OMG THE FUTURE and then to OMG TRASH in record time.

I have never seen something getting so much hype so quickly and then see it gone as quickly as it came, like it's insane.

 

Not mad tho, most of us expected this for good reason. Cloud is just not the future for everything.

I'm not sure how many people actually bought into the "OMG THE FUTURE" claims.  Google was making them, but was anyone listening?  When I first saw the "negative latency" headline I literally lol'd and joked "they must be using AI to predict your movements to make them before you do", knowing it was 110% sarcasm, only to later realize that's actually what the plan was.  I'd imagine most people on here probably reacted similarly, though perhaps they were able to fool the less tech-minded.  Then there were the claims that it can do things "not possible on a local machine", and that's certainly more interesting and more believable, but anything times 0 is still 0...

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I have 0 regrets about cancelling now.


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@Ryan_Vickers

Not saying this isn't true... but as someone that used and played the beta back with AC Odyssey last year... it got a lot better the short couple of months we had with the program, and while on a pretty meh 200/10 connection (when wired) I'd say it was a pretty comparable latency experience to a bad wireless mouse/keyboard. 

 

Wireless was not a good experience though at all, even though my throughput was fantastic and my AC Wave 2 router really shouldn't have added more than a few ms latency maximum. 

 

 

Also worth noting, that wasn't to a chromecast. That was to a full blown gaming pc as shown in my sig, and would almost certainly have been the best possible case (short of a direct fibre connection) for the service.


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Most people, reviewers included, have shoddy WiFi. 

The ideal way to have WiFi set up would be to have multiple APs on dedicated channels with ethernet backhauls. 

A lot of the suckiness would magically go away if people were right next to an AP. 

With that said, I ETHERNETTED ALL THE THINGS a while ago. 


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I'm sick of these "reviews".    

Expectations from these service are unrealistic.  And yet, people act like they always bring their xboxes and playstations around from one room to another all the time :D

 

Example:

https://www.gamesradar.com/google-stadia-review-in-progress/

 

Quote

"My dream of playing Red Dead Redemption 2 with my six-year-old laptop in my favourite bar was over before it had even begun. The Stadia controller won't connect to the Wi-Fi in my second favourite bar either, nor would it let me play in a medley of coffee shops and cafes in the city of Bath, United Kingdom. The future is here, and it is straight-edge. "

 

Quote

"Stadia also doesn't work in the GamesRadar+ offices; my secondary dream of pretending to do work while secretly playing Destiny 2 at my desk is dead and buried."



 

Quote

"Stadia wouldn't work in a hotel I was staying in last week, it didn't like the hotspot I found as I descended into the London Underground, and it definitely didn't like the internet connection offered up by First Great Western trains –"

 

 

Am I the only one that expected this to only really work reliably with a hi-end router and/or an ethernet connection?  :D

 

And, according to most of these reviews. I would expect something like a Read Dead Redemption 2 for PC get something like 2/10 considering how it launched :D

 

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, MadDuke said:

[...]Am I the only one that expected this to only really work reliably with a hi-end router and/or an ethernet connection?  :D[...]

I don't think so, I believe many people expected a solid network to be necessary and other scenarios to provide less-than-stellar performance, if any at all, but it does somewhat defeat the purpose.  One of the theoretical advantages of this technology is that with nothing but the phone you already carry + a controller, you can get a console gaming experience anywhere you go, unlike what was possible before due to the fact that, as you say, no one is going to carry their xbox with them.

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7 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

I don't think so, I believe many people expected a solid network to be necessary and other scenarios to provide less-than-stellar performance, if any at all, but it does somewhat defeat the purpose.  One of the theoretical advantages of this technology is that with nothing but the phone you already carry + a controller, you can get a console gaming experience anywhere you go, unlike what was possible before due to the fact that, as you say, no one is going to carry their xbox with them.

I agree. But I hate double standards. I have an Asus Rog Phone 2. So, all I would need is a simple USB-C dongle with ethernet and HDMI and play on a big screen wherever I go with a normal connection. 

And I can then only pay for one month when I want to play and skip on the other months. (even though the default free plan will also be available for casual gaming).  

 

And if someone says you shouldn't need a dongle. Then all the macbooks of this world and most ultra portable PCs should also get a 2/10 mark on their reviews :P

 

That's what I'm saying about double standards :P

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
1 minute ago, MadDuke said:

[...]

And if someone says you shouldn't need a dongle. Then all the macbooks of this world and most ultra portable PCs should also get a 2/10 mark on their reviews :P

 

That's what I'm saying about double standards :P

I'd be all for that 👍

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4 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

I don't see how Stadia can work. You are buying full price games (old games too), which are cheaper elsewhere, and if Google cancels the service (like cancel many other things at the sign of any trouble instead of investing) then you just lost 60$ US Its gone, you have nothing.

 

At least with Microsoft's streaming service (Project xCloud), albeit in beta, you pay a flat monthly fee, Netflix style, and you play what you want in the available lib of games.

 

Yes, I know that both have latency issues, but the business model of Google, makes no sense to even get attention.

Actually. Being a Behemoth like Google (or Microsoft) and failing and canceling service while also buying full games would set an important precedent and out of that we would get a lot of really good pro consumer laws.  :)

 

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For all the people saying "just use ethernet", remember that Google advertised Stadia with a gamepad that itself connected direct to wifi, allegedly to combat lag. If the wifi experience is more or less universally bad, then that means that the official Google endorsed controller will be the worst way to use the service. 

 

That's quality design right there. 

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15 minutes ago, Waffles13 said:

For all the people saying "just use ethernet", remember that Google advertised Stadia with a gamepad that itself connected direct to wifi, allegedly to combat lag. If the wifi experience is more or less universally bad, then that means that the official Google endorsed controller will be the worst way to use the service. 

 

That's quality design right there. 

The stream device itself will work better on ethernet of course. That is a matter of bandwidth. 

 

The controller can work on wifi. 

But connecting it to a default ISP crap of a router. That will not be a great experience probably if streaming also from the same crap router. 

 

I mean. We are entering WiFi 6 territory and here from my apartment I'm the only one broadcasting a 5GHz signal. Everyone else is still on 2.4 GHz. 

I even use the 80 wide band I think because there is literally nothing to screw with my signal hahaha. 

 

:)

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14 hours ago, MadDuke said:

I'm sick of these "reviews".    

Expectations from these service are unrealistic.  And yet, people act like they always bring their xboxes and playstations around from one room to another all the time :D

If I would need to do that, then I would get a Switch.

If I had a gaming PC, then I would use Steam... heck, being local network, you can even use Remote Desktop, and still get reasonable experience. 

 

This service is more for people who want to play 'PC games' without spending the money on a gaming PC.

Sadly, depending on where you are, you most likely, as a residential home, don't have an actual good internet connection, let alone unlimited data cap without throttle, which is only availible at some locations in US and Canada. So it is nice that it works at some places that have lovely fiber and unlimited everything, but that is not the reality for home users... at least in US and Canada... but I am sure in many other regions as well around the world.

 

And if you can afford the price of a solid and rapid internet connection, with the router to deliver that service across your home, then you have the money for a gaming PC... and now the games that you purchase won't disappeared next day, because Google decided that it didn't like the background color of the website anymore.

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