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TheBiggestOfBuschemis

Concerning frame timing and RAM.

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Posted · Original PosterOP

So, I've heard that when you have a RAM kit with high CAS latency, you get really bad frame timing. What I want to know is how do you exactly notice if you're getting bad frame timing or not with high CAS latency RAM. How do you exactly notice if you're getting bad frame timing or not due to high CAS latency RAM?

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bad frame timing = stuttering in games. If you dont get stuttering, you dont have a problem with your frame times. 


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25 minutes ago, TheBiggestOfBuschemis said:

So, I've heard that when you have a RAM kit with high CAS latency, you get really bad frame timing. What I want to know is how do you exactly notice if you're getting bad frame timing or not with high CAS latency RAM. How do you exactly notice if you're getting bad frame timing or not due to high CAS latency RAM?

I agree with @Skiiwee29 

 

Just for curiosity what Ram Kit and CPU do you have?


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You could use frametime plotters like FRAPS, but if you dont feel it you're usually fine


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Posted · Original PosterOP
13 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

You could use frametime plotters like FRAPS, but if you dont feel it you're usually fine

What I'm basically trying to ask is, what exactly happens for you to notice shitty frame timing with a high latency kit?

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6 minutes ago, TheBiggestOfBuschemis said:

What I'm basically trying to ask is, how do you notice shitty frame timing with a high latency kit?

uhm, your eyes? Also CPU per core usage or GPU usage that isn't pinned to near 100%


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CPU: i7-2600K 4751MHz 1.44V (software) --> 1.4?V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 103.3MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 2133MHz 10-11-11-30 CR2, custom: 2203MHz 10-11-10-26 CR1 tRFC:230 tREFI:14000) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual (Super Jetstream vbios, +70(2025-2088MHz)/+400(8.8Gbps)) SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 1 exhaust Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (150Hz max w/ DP, 121Hz max w/ HDMI) TN panel Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

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Posted · Original PosterOP
3 minutes ago, Jurrunio said:

uhm, your eyes? Also CPU per core usage or GPU usage that isn't pinned to near 100%

Heh, guess I should've worded what I said a bit better. I was just asking if I get shitty frame timing, am I going to get micro-stuttering or something? 

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4 minutes ago, TheBiggestOfBuschemis said:

Heh, guess I should've worded what I said a bit better. I was just asking if I get shitty frame timing, am I going to get micro-stuttering or something? 

Yes. Frame times are simply the "inverse" of frame rates.

 

If your game runs at 60 frames per seconds, then each frame takes (at most) 1/60 seconds per frame (~16.6ms) to render.


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8 minutes ago, TheBiggestOfBuschemis said:

I was just asking if I get shitty frame timing, am I going to get micro-stuttering or something? 

They are the same thing. If frame time spikes up (i.e. the frame takes much longer to render), frame rate dips to the floor, and you get stutter. 3 ways to describe 1 thing


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CPU: i7-2600K 4751MHz 1.44V (software) --> 1.4?V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 103.3MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 2133MHz 10-11-11-30 CR2, custom: 2203MHz 10-11-10-26 CR1 tRFC:230 tREFI:14000) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual (Super Jetstream vbios, +70(2025-2088MHz)/+400(8.8Gbps)) SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 1 exhaust Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (150Hz max w/ DP, 121Hz max w/ HDMI) TN panel Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V core & cache, 50mV SA undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (+80/+450, 1650MHz~1750MHz 0.78V~0.85V) RAM: 8+8GB DDR4-2400 18-17-17-39 2T Storage: 1TB HP EX920 PCIe x4 M.2 SSD + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172), 128GB Toshiba PCIe x2 M.2 SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) gone cooking externally Monitor: 1080p 126Hz IPS G-sync

 

Desktop benching:

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Posted · Original PosterOP
Just now, Jurrunio said:

They are the same thing. If frame time spikes up (i.e. the frame takes much longer to render), frame rate dips to the floor, and you get stutter. 3 ways to describe 1 thing

Alright, I appreciate the answer! Sorry if I annoyed you.

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3 hours ago, Skiiwee29 said:

bad frame timing = stuttering in games. If you dont get stuttering, you dont have a problem with your frame times. 

That's not quite right I think.  I can play games perfectly stable at 60fps and *still* get really bad frame times... 

 

Unfortunately this happens constantly in MHW which is the game I'm playing most... 

 

 

And the frame times aren't actually something many people would notice since what they do is create input lag,  and honestly in my experience most people don't notice input lag   they're fine with 100, 200ms  no problem,  "what do you mean input lag my game is super responsive... "  

They just don't notice. 

 

 

I'm sure if you get actual stutters you'll have bad frame times too,  but it doesn't necessarily mean there are (measurable) stutters if you have bad frame times. 

 

2 hours ago, Jurrunio said:

They are the same thing. If frame time spikes up (i.e. the frame takes much longer to render), frame rate dips to the floor, and you get stutter. 3 ways to describe 1 thing

Not necessarily! I think you already seen this,  perfectly fine framerate, absolutely awful frame times. Again  can be the same thing,  but not necessarily. 

 

MHW_HiResTextures_TextureFiltering_Perfomance_nodrps_GPU.thumb.JPG.1b67d3c4fd2c1745e546641b2578d259.JPG

 

please note the frame drops where the green dots are happen during loading, but there are no drops during actual gameplay,  frametimes go up between 500 to 900 ms during gameplay, which is undoubtedly absolutely terrible.

Also do not mistake the frame times ms with input lag ms,  they aren't the same but bad frame times can and in most cases will create input lag. 

 


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@Mark Kaine to achieve a stable 60 fps, you need 16.67ms per frame, aka frame time. When you get large spikes in this time, that is when you notice them. This is your frame time. Chances are you are not measuring your frame time.  

 

Frame time is directly correlated to your FPS and is what determines your FPS. 

 

16.67ms per frame = 60 fps. 

 

The math is this.

 

16.67x60=1000.2ms, or 1second meaning the frame show on screen refreshs every 16.67ms to achieve 60 fps. The higher the FPS goes, the lower the frame time drops.

 

144fps? That equals about 7ms per frame. Thats how frametime works.. If you had deviations in the frame time and spikes in the render time of each frame, you would absolutely notice it. 

 

TL:DR You cant get good FPS with bad frame times. Frametimes go up, FPS drops and you absolutely feel it. 


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3 minutes ago, Skiiwee29 said:

@Mark Kaine to achieve a stable 60 fps, you need 16.67ms per frame, aka frame time. When you get large spikes in this time, that is when you notice them. This is your frame time. Chances are you are not measuring your frame time.  

 

Frame time is directly correlated to your FPS and is what determines your FPS. 

 

16.67ms per frame = 60 fps. 

 

The math is this.

 

16.67x60=1000.2ms, or 1second meaning the frame show on screen refreshs every 16.67ms to achieve 60 fps. The higher the FPS goes, the lower the frame time drops.

 

144fps? That equals about 7ms per frame. Thats how frametime works.. If you had deviations in the frame time and spikes in the render time of each frame, you would absolutely notice it. 

 

TL:DR You cant get good FPS with bad frame times. Frametimes go up, FPS drops and you absolutely feel it. 

Ok thanks,  I see what you mean..  The thing is though, I can't measure any frame drops,  see the pic I posted there are none,  also not in my overlay which of course is always running 100% of the time (which might even makes issues worse hah) 

 

So if there are drops they must be so short that fps counters do not pick them up. 

 

And well of course I notice it,  it's perceived as input lag / lower responsiveness.... 

 

 

Actually I would like to know how to actually fix this? I suppose a better GPU would help obviously - if you check the pic,  it's pretty much maxed out all the time,  especially memory too.  Or is it really RAM timings,  that have such a huge effect. Or both? 

 

 


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1 minute ago, Mark Kaine said:

Ok thanks,  I see what you mean..  The thing is though, I can't measure any frame drops,  see the pic I posted there are none,  also not in my overlay which of course is always running 100% of the time (which might even makes issues worse hah) 

 

So if there are drops they must be so short that fps counters do not pick them up. 

 

And well of course I notice it,  it's perceived as input lag / lower responsiveness.... 

 

 

Actually I would like to know how to actually fix this? I suppose a better GPU would help obviously - if you check the pic,  it's pretty much maxed out all the time,  especially memory too.  Or is it really RAM timings,  that have such a huge effect. Or both? 

 

 

afterburner doesnt measure Frametime. You would need to use something else like Fraps or other software to measure frametime. Input lag and low responsiveness is not related to bad frametimes.


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4 minutes ago, Skiiwee29 said:

afterburner doesnt measure Frametime

IMG_20191117_124245.jpg.70dd09acbe5923e8ce181218a96e8090.jpg

 

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3 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

IMG_20191117_124245.jpg.70dd09acbe5923e8ce181218a96e8090.jpg

 

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Stand corrected, by default it doesnt measure it unless you turn it on in the config. But based on those numbers, there is absolutely no way its accurate. If you were getting spikes up to 400ms, then you would be down to 2fps during that time. 


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49 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Not necessarily! I think you already seen this,  perfectly fine framerate, absolutely awful frame times. Again  can be the same thing,  but not necessarily. 

It's the problem of poll rate, frame rates often refresh once per second while frame times are refreshed for every frame. In other words, frame times are recorded far more frequently and hence show greater changes, while frame rate is smoothed out.


"What's under the heatsink?" ep1, "Why it's not as good as it seem?" AMD fanboy edition out, episode 2 "Why my gaming board is a scam?" Intel fanboy edition coming soon (this is a link)

Hardware specs below

CPU: i7-2600K 4751MHz 1.44V (software) --> 1.4?V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 103.3MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 2133MHz 10-11-11-30 CR2, custom: 2203MHz 10-11-10-26 CR1 tRFC:230 tREFI:14000) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual (Super Jetstream vbios, +70(2025-2088MHz)/+400(8.8Gbps)) SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 1 exhaust Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (150Hz max w/ DP, 121Hz max w/ HDMI) TN panel Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V core & cache, 50mV SA undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (+80/+450, 1650MHz~1750MHz 0.78V~0.85V) RAM: 8+8GB DDR4-2400 18-17-17-39 2T Storage: 1TB HP EX920 PCIe x4 M.2 SSD + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172), 128GB Toshiba PCIe x2 M.2 SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) gone cooking externally Monitor: 1080p 126Hz IPS G-sync

 

Desktop benching:

Cinebench R15 Single thread:168 Multi-thread: 833 

SuperPi (v1.5 from Techpowerup, PI value output) 16K: 0.100s 1M: 8.255s 32M: 7m 45.93s

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48 minutes ago, Skiiwee29 said:

Stand corrected, by default it doesnt measure it unless you turn it on in the config. But based on those numbers, there is absolutely no way its accurate. If you were getting spikes up to 400ms, then you would be down to 2fps during that time. 

I think what's happening is there are "drops" but they are so short they don't get picked up by fps counters and you also do not see them,  but you definitely feel them, you notice "something is wrong"...

 

It's also referred to as "micro stutters" precisely because you can't directly measure them and the only way to see what's going on is uneven or high frame times... Is that maybe something we could agree on?

 

If you look at that picture the spikes are naturally really short,  and frequent. 

 

And it does create input lag, as a side effect, also afterburner is very accurate,  if you think otherwise you might want to talk to Mr.  Unwinder on the guru3D forums, if I can't convince you. ;)

 

 

And sorry if I didn't explain this 100% correctly,  but that's the gist of it,  you can definitely feel bad frametimes doesn't mean you get measurable frame rate drops - this isn't even debatable imo as I posted proof above. 

And I'm fairly certain Afterburner is very correct - it's used to measure this stuff all the time... 

 

 

This is a difficult subject,  I see people mixing up input lag,  monitor latency, frametimes and "micro stutters" and so on ...  all the time... 

Doesn't mean no one understands these terms but sometimes people understand the same words differently,  especially when it's about input lag,  then there's the fact some people aren't even sensitive to it, etc lol. It is difficult. 

 

 


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