YouTube Implements COPPA For Creators After Being Fined by FTC

[CarlBar]

Check 26:15 to 26:50

[Taf the Ghost]

19 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

The point I was making. They cant go after non american citizens outside the US. Yes, they can go after people within the US, but this law is like copy right law. The government doesnt have the time or resources to sue every fucker in to poverty or imprison them. They are not going to play a game of wack a mole. They will go after to big guys, like Youtube, Twitch and such. They probably wont even consider many creators, as they would not be worth it. What they will do is go after the companies directly and force them to make their content creators comply with the law. Either by blocking the content or by banning creators from the platform. 

 

In the end I have a feeling this is going to turn in to a supream court case about first amendment violations. Especially if they start blocking content. 

I would hope this would get to SCOTUS, but the FTC will likely take every step in their power to prevent anyone that could drag it there from taking it there. Whacking YT was more than fine, as Google actually was in constant violation of the law, but they want to extend that legal risk to everyone that uses an online service. Or that "derives benefit" from a service that would collect data about children. 

 

Of course, sometimes foreign businesses hire a DC lawyer and completely obliterate the Federal Government when they do stuff like this. This story is going to crop up regularly for a good number of years.

[Donut417]

29 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

I would hope this would get to SCOTUS, but the FTC will likely take every step in their power to prevent anyone that could drag it there from taking it there. Whacking YT was more than fine, as Google actually was in constant violation of the law, but they want to extend that legal risk to everyone that uses an online service. Or that "derives benefit" from a service that would collect data about children. 

 

Of course, sometimes foreign businesses hire a DC lawyer and completely obliterate the Federal Government when they do stuff like this. This story is going to crop up regularly for a good number of years.

As much as we here in America run the world our laws stop at our borders. Unless we have negotiated treaties with another nation to extend the law. Such as copyright and IP law. Even there we have limits. Unlike the CIA and NSA the FTC does not have world wide jurisdiction. They will fine those in the US, because that’s the only place they can. Trust me the fines will be few and far between. Look at Piracy, the government does jack shit against it most times. Because they don’t have the resources they deal with it. Piracy they can leverage like a $250,000 to $500,000 fine and prison time. They still do nothing. 
 

The whole point of what they did to YouTube is to force YouTube to enforce the law, this way they don’t have to. Our government is lazy. They fine the large guys (YouTube, Twitch and Mixer) and force them to make users comply. That’s the only way they can get world wide compliance. Companies will either require all creators to follow the law or Geoblock content that doesn’t follow the law. Which YouTube already does with copy righted videos on YouTube. 
 

Im waiting on the ACLU to take this to court. As they might be able to claim censorship. Which is non constitutional. Or wait for Google, Microsoft,  Facebook and others to lobby Congress. 2020 is an election year, so I’m sure some congressmen or senator is up for re-election, needing money from these guys. 

[Taf the Ghost]

6 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

As much as we here in America run the world our laws stop at our borders. Unless we have negotiated treaties with another nation to extend the law. Such as copyright and IP law. Even there we have limits. Unlike the CIA and NSA the FTC does not have world wide jurisdiction. They will fine those in the US, because that’s the only place they can. Trust me the fines will be few and far between. Look at Piracy, the government does jack shit against it most times. Because they don’t have the resources they deal with it. Piracy they can leverage like a $250,000 to $500,000 fine and prison time. They still do nothing. 
 

The whole point of what they did to YouTube is to force YouTube to enforce the law, this way they don’t have to. Our government is lazy. They fine the large guys (YouTube, Twitch and Mixer) and force them to make users comply. That’s the only way they can get world wide compliance. Companies will either require all creators to follow the law or Geoblock content that doesn’t follow the law. Which YouTube already does with copy righted videos on YouTube. 
 

Im waiting on the ACLU to take this to court. As they might be able to claim censorship. Which is non constitutional. Or wait for Google, Microsoft,  Facebook and others to lobby Congress. 2020 is an election year, so I’m sure some congressmen or senator is up for re-election, needing money from these guys. 

You're really missing my point, and, as the twisted legal approach the FTC is up to becomes clearer, it's also clear why they hide this stuff the way they do. The only part on YouTube that's liable for COPPA, as currently written, is YouTube. Google was in pretty flagrant violation of the law, as well. As written, the law should have no effect on any Video that's posted to YouTube. This was always Youtube's sole liability and still is. What the agreement between YT and the FTC does is expose YT creators to a weird legal risk that shouldn't exist in the first place.

 

The instant we're at this point, any assumption about the legality of what the FTC is up to goes out the window. This is clearly a power grab of some form. What that form is and the extent to the intent of that power grab is unknown. (Without much better knowledge of the networks all of the players involved in this are with, it's hard to even project the extent of the intent.)  Because it's a power grab, the actions of the FTC will not make a lot of sense to most. 

 

That's why they'll go after foreign creators first. Because the videos are posted on YouTube & due to the FTC-Google agreement, the FTC will claim jurisdiction and file lawsuits in Federal Court against the individuals/companies in the States. Because they will not send representation, the FTC will win by summary judgment. Over each successive wave of FTC cases, the content will be "expanded" that is covered by FTC "fines". They'll probably toss a few "they might be pedos" with 1000 subs that are all bots into the mix, but the objective will be to produce a large body of Case Law. This will take a few years.

 

The objective from there is unknown. Is it just creating a new fiefdom for the FTC to regulate anyone off the Internet they don't like? Is it far more sinister? Why did Google serve up all of their content creators to this, as part of the deal? (175 million USD fine is about 1/10th of 1% of Google's revenue this year.) What was in it for Google to think this was a good deal? I don't have answers for those questions, but how you answer those questions will dictate how you view the further actions to come.

 

Also keep in back of your head that Google might actually want an exit ramp from what the current Youtube is.  Basically eliminating monetization from everything that isn't pre-sorted corporate material would accomplish a lot of what they seem to be interested in. The agreement with the FTC had to meet some set of objectives for Google, or they wouldn't have signed it. Backdoor "ending" YouTube might be one of them.

[sNowCat]

2 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

He gave a pretty long answer on the Bitwit/Paul's Hardware livestream. Google got smacked because they were breaking the law, but he's generally not worried for his content. And he seems to be quite correct. (I.e. he's already gotten legal advice.)

Thanks for pointing that out. Just watched it,

For those interested see (40:40):

 

[Brooksie359]

5 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

You're really missing my point, and, as the twisted legal approach the FTC is up to becomes clearer, it's also clear why they hide this stuff the way they do. The only part on YouTube that's liable for COPPA, as currently written, is YouTube. Google was in pretty flagrant violation of the law, as well. As written, the law should have no effect on any Video that's posted to YouTube. This was always Youtube's sole liability and still is. What the agreement between YT and the FTC does is expose YT creators to a weird legal risk that shouldn't exist in the first place.

 

The instant we're at this point, any assumption about the legality of what the FTC is up to goes out the window. This is clearly a power grab of some form. What that form is and the extent to the intent of that power grab is unknown. (Without much better knowledge of the networks all of the players involved in this are with, it's hard to even project the extent of the intent.)  Because it's a power grab, the actions of the FTC will not make a lot of sense to most. 

 

That's why they'll go after foreign creators first. Because the videos are posted on YouTube & due to the FTC-Google agreement, the FTC will claim jurisdiction and file lawsuits in Federal Court against the individuals/companies in the States. Because they will not send representation, the FTC will win by summary judgment. Over each successive wave of FTC cases, the content will be "expanded" that is covered by FTC "fines". They'll probably toss a few "they might be pedos" with 1000 subs that are all bots into the mix, but the objective will be to produce a large body of Case Law. This will take a few years.

 

The objective from there is unknown. Is it just creating a new fiefdom for the FTC to regulate anyone off the Internet they don't like? Is it far more sinister? Why did Google serve up all of their content creators to this, as part of the deal? (175 million USD fine is about 1/10th of 1% of Google's revenue this year.) What was in it for Google to think this was a good deal? I don't have answers for those questions, but how you answer those questions will dictate how you view the further actions to come.

 

Also keep in back of your head that Google might actually want an exit ramp from what the current Youtube is.  Basically eliminating monetization from everything that isn't pre-sorted corporate material would accomplish a lot of what they seem to be interested in. The agreement with the FTC had to meet some set of objectives for Google, or they wouldn't have signed it. Backdoor "ending" YouTube might be one of them.

Or maybe they are just a government entity handing out fines for breaking the law however misguided or incorrect that it is. Is it possible that the FTC has nefarious intentions? Sure but I am very sceptical to believe that they do. I mean we haven't even seen anyone but google being fined yet and people are already jumping the gun saying the FTC is clearly after everyone. 

[Donut417]

33 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Or maybe they are just a government entity handing out fines for breaking the law however misguided or incorrect that it is. Is it possible that the FTC has nefarious intentions? Sure but I am very sceptical to believe that they do. I mean we haven't even seen anyone but google being fined yet and people are already jumping the gun saying the FTC is clearly after everyone. 

I think many think the FTC came up with it on their own. They don’t understand this had to go thru the house and senate. Then the president had to sign it in to law. The FTC is doing their job based on how the law is written.

[Touch My Hamm]

I for one am happy this change is coming as I have said in other posts. Sucks when some creators are having issues with it. This change is necessary since there has been alot of "creators" who have been taking advantage of kids for years since advertisers where oblivious to what was going on with YouTube. Now they are starting to become picky since its THEIR money that is paying the bills. If you want the advertisers money you have to follow their rules. I have seen "creators" market loot box websites to kids where it was obvious to any adult that its most likely a scam site that paid big money for free marketing on their videos. But alot of kids do not think this and believe that their favorite YouTuber would only have their audiences best interest in mind. There are too many "creators" trying to market to kids while the content is not for that age range as they want to be the next BIG YOUTUBER.

 

blame the YouTubers for taking advantage of kids for years for this to come about. for every good youtuber unboxing Disney Frozen toy box there is someone trying to be edgy by asking kids to donate to patreon and giving them CS:Go skins to gamble for video content. All the while making sure their videos have over 10mins of content with as many ads put in as possible. 

 

Still sucks when smaller channels who could have the best intentions becomes a target since its easy to take small channels down. Until the next big platform starts up and becomes popular and people can make money this will continue down this path where YouTube will become more like TV channels where everything goes through censors before it reaches the public.

[Donut417]

3 hours ago, GodSeph said:

I for one am happy this change is coming as I have said in other posts. Sucks when some creators are having issues with it. This change is necessary since there has been alot of "creators" who have been taking advantage of kids for years since advertisers where oblivious to what was going on with YouTube. Now they are starting to become picky since its THEIR money that is paying the bills. If you want the advertisers money you have to follow their rules. I have seen "creators" market loot box websites to kids where it was obvious to any adult that its most likely a scam site that paid big money for free marketing on their videos. But alot of kids do not think this and believe that their favorite YouTuber would only have their audiences best interest in mind. There are too many "creators" trying to market to kids while the content is not for that age range as they want to be the next BIG YOUTUBER.

 

blame the YouTubers for taking advantage of kids for years for this to come about. for every good youtuber unboxing Disney Frozen toy box there is someone trying to be edgy by asking kids to donate to patreon and giving them CS:Go skins to gamble for video content. All the while making sure their videos have over 10mins of content with as many ads put in as possible. 

 

Still sucks when smaller channels who could have the best intentions becomes a target since its easy to take small channels down. Until the next big platform starts up and becomes popular and people can make money this will continue down this path where YouTube will become more like TV channels where everything goes through censors before it reaches the public.

But here's the issue. Any type of video that is attractive to kids has to follow these rules. Meaning all the game streamers and such. So while they will get some ad revneue, you loose your notification bell, comments and other things. So pretty much killing those channels. What happens when this hits Twitch and Mixer? They basically FUCKED over a lot of people who make a living on this type of work. But its the Federal Government, FUCKING over small businesses is their job. 

 

Also the law went in to effect 19 years ago, Youtube has been around for 14 years. Id imagine that they have been doing personalized ads and comments and such for a while. It took the FTC this long to smack Youtube? My guess is some bullshit special intrest group pitched a bitch fit about something. Thats generally how things like this happen. 

 

9 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

That's why they'll go after foreign creators first. Because the videos are posted on YouTube & due to the FTC-Google agreement, the FTC will claim jurisdiction and file lawsuits in Federal Court against the individuals/companies in the States. Because they will not send representation, the FTC will win by summary judgment. Over each successive wave of FTC cases, the content will be "expanded" that is covered by FTC "fines". They'll probably toss a few "they might be pedos" with 1000 subs that are all bots into the mix, but the objective will be to produce a large body of Case Law. This will take a few years.

So by what your saying is they can issue a fine for a Russian citizen who viloates the law? Because Im fairly sure Putin would tell the FTC to go screw off. THAT is what your not understanding. The FTC does NOT have the power to tell foreign governments what to do. The only force the US goverment has to do that is our Military. They are not going to send the US Marines to collect a $42,000 fine. The only way they can force foreign creators to follow this is by blocking their content on Youtube. Which Youtube has the ability to do under copyright grounds already. But countries like Russia or China are not going to allow the FTC to issue any such fines. There are many government around the world that would just tell us NO. 

 

9 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

This is clearly a power grab of some form. What that form is and the extent to the intent of that power grab is unknown. (Without much better knowledge of the networks all of the players involved in this are with, it's hard to even project the extent of the intent.)  Because it's a power grab, the actions of the FTC will not make a lot of sense to most. 

The FTC's job is to enforce laws. Which is what they are doing. The FTC is a consumer protection agency mostly. So what probably happen is some speical intrest group filed a complaint aginst Youtube. Thats generally how these things get started. The FTC has to opperate within the letter of the constution, as part of the executive branch their job is to enforce laws. Also, for referce this law went in to effect in 2000, so its been on the books for 19 years.

 

10 hours ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Basically eliminating monetization from everything that isn't pre-sorted corporate material would accomplish a lot of what they seem to be interested in.

Then how will they make money? People are not going to continue to create videos for free. That was the whole point of ads on Youtube. Was to give the creator a little bit for taking the time to make videos. So baiscally by what your saying is that Google wants Youtube to DIE. Because it wont exsit if they kill off the ad revenue for creators. 

[CarlBar]

8 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

But here's the issue. Any type of video that is attractive to kids has to follow these rules. Meaning all the game streamers and such. So while they will get some ad revneue, you loose your notification bell, comments and other things. So pretty much killing those channels. What happens when this hits Twitch and Mixer? They basically FUCKED over a lot of people who make a living on this type of work. But its the Federal Government, FUCKING over small businesses is their job. 

 

The bit where creators have to specify weather a video/channel is for kids is what google is required to do. All the other things that happen when you enable for kids on a video is google's own choice. They're trying to force creators of videos to not mark videos for kids because if everyone started doing it who might fall into that category, (say every video game and tech channel for example), Youtube would have to change what adds it served to these sorts of videos to be more inclusive if it wanted to get the adds to enough people to be worth using as an ad service, meaning the people making these videos would actually see their revenue go up not down from making the change which would quickly lead to everyone marking it for kids and making a mess of google's business model.

 

5 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Or maybe they are just a government entity handing out fines for breaking the law however misguided or incorrect that it is. Is it possible that the FTC has nefarious intentions? Sure but I am very sceptical to believe that they do. I mean we haven't even seen anyone but google being fined yet and people are already jumping the gun saying the FTC is clearly after everyone. 

 

The FTC has publicly stated they intend to go after youtube creators. This isn't "oh googled was fine we might be next if they decide to go after content creators", it's "oh no google was fined and the entity that fined them told us we where next"

[Donut417]

2 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

The bit where creators have to specify weather a video/channel is for kids is what google is required to do.

What I was stating is that to my understanding any content that attracts kids, has to be marked for kids. Which means any game streamer or tech channel could technically fall in to this category. Which means that ad they cant do targeted ads and maybe advertisers might not like that fact. Also then with no comments enabled their is no community interaction. No notification bell means half your subs might not figure out that they have new content to watch. Which means peoples numbers go down. That equals less ad revneue and pretty much fucks over most creators. At least those who rely on ad revenue. Also while the creator does have to specify its seems that Youtube will be going over videos as well and putting them in to the proper category. On top of the fact if a creator fucks up, then they could be liable for a $42,000 fine. 

 

The biggest question is how this is going to effect Twich and Mixer. Because you know Twich and Mixer are looking at this and probably a pretty nervous. This is simular to Ford and Crystler watching the UAW and GM hash out a contract. Becuase they were waiting to see if GM would budge or the UAW. 

 

[CarlBar]

1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

Also then with no comments enabled their is no community interaction. No notification bell means half your subs might not figure out that they have new content to watch. Which means peoples numbers go down. That equals less ad revneue and pretty much fucks over most creators.

 

 

All of this is somthing google is choosing to do, they are not in any way being asked, told, or legally required to do any of it. Not having targeted ads will hurt your revenue sure. But it's not a chanel killer. it;s all the other things that are the channel killer and google isn't doing any of it because they have to. They're doing it to deliberately screw over anyone who marks their stuff for kids so they don't get their entiere advertising business screwed over by the majority of youtube marking their videos as for children for safety's sake instead.

 

Twitch e.t.c. are in no real danger here because if they do get caught b this all they'll do is change what data they collect and how they serve ads on child friendly content. They're not going to disable notifications, subscriptions, stream chat, e.t.c. because they've no good reason to.

[The1Dickens]

I think that if this goes through the way YouTube is pushing, it will actually bite them in the ass far worse than any content creator alone could. It will effectively be the beginning of the end of YouTube. If I am understanding the act correctly, anyways. It would honestly be in YouTube's best interest to take ownership of this issue and handle it properly.

[Taf the Ghost]

13 minutes ago, The1Dickens said:

I think that if this goes through the way YouTube is pushing, it will actually bite them in the ass far worse than any content creator alone could. It will effectively be the beginning of the end of YouTube. If I am understanding the act correctly, anyways. It would honestly be in YouTube's best interest to take ownership of this issue and handle it properly.

Unless they'd rather run off most of the creators/make their business models invalid, thus letting them have to pay out very, very little.

[Taf the Ghost]

  

 

 

A solid summary of the situation while also going over a FTC page that says very little.

 

It should be noted that, even with the settlement, basically the FTC and Google are still going back & forth over things. And it looks a lot like putting a small disclaimer at the start of videos that: 1) Creater "Name Here" is not an Operator of this Website and 2) This video is intended for a "General Audience", will cover the situation. That's not "legal advice", in this regard, but it looks like the burden necessary to be able to thumb your nose at the FTC.

 

Google has badly violated the Data Collection law, but YT Content Creators cannot violate COPPA by being on YT. (Could on their own websites, as a note.) The fearmongering was very intentional from the FTC and it's clearly a Power Grab. What the long-term intentions of that power grab are will remain unknown until they take further actions. The FTC will also avoid ever exposing this action to actual Legal challenge for a very long time.

[Bryan-10EC]

I edited my previous post, but let me post it again.

.

This is about data collection.

Basically viewer data collection is one way to make money on the internet, so the FTC is saying anything that could possibly be seen by a "under 13" needs to have the data collection thing turned off.

Maybe we just need some way to sort the kids out on the ISP end versus punishing the creator/site for being view-able and collecting data?

.

Also, youtube is auto-clicking content as "for kids" to have the data collection turned off for viewer.

That protects the content creator from COPPA, but also reduces the ad revenue (by 19%).

So this isn't the end of the world, but does suggest maybe we need some sort of ISP side age marker for browsing limitiations.

[PixelPol]

-- Removed by me -- Stuff is changing at speed of light, and was certain yesterday, is not so much today.

[CarlBar]

1 hour ago, PixelPol said:

Have I read it badly or those contents marked for kids wont appear in the discovery stream ? (which would equal to dead in the water or alone under the rain) is an actual question,  as this is the one thing I have my doubts if I have read it just like that, yesterday.

 

If a video is marked as for kids they get significantly less profitable ads and get comments notifications, and several other youtube features disabled. Losing those features is going to hit a channels viewership rather hard.

[jagdtigger]

18 hours ago, Bryan-10EC said:

but does suggest maybe we need some sort of ISP side age marker for browsing limitiations.

Nope, we need ppl to get their butts off the couch and do proper parenting and stuff......

[CarlBar]

7 minutes ago, jagdtigger said:

Nope, we need ppl to get their butts off the couch and do proper parenting and stuff......

 

While there's some element of truth to this there's a reason there exists thing like watersheds with TV channels and where talking about somthing, (collecting highly sensitive personal information of the type that in person requires explicit permission from the parent), that you can't parent better to deal with because few if any websites tell you what if any information they're collecting and even amongst those that do most give you no option to tell them to not collect it, (though the recent moves by the EU do help there). It isn't something you can parent around effectively.

[jagdtigger]

45 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

It isn't something you can parent around effectively.

Well there is a way, sorta. Just teach the kid to never share online anything that he wouldnt tell to a stranger IRL.....

[CarlBar]

3 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Well there is a way, sorta. Just teach the kid to never share online anything that he wouldnt tell to a stranger IRL.....

 

COPPA is primarily about automated data collection so the children never have to tell the site anything, it's all automatically culled by several types of cookie. Which again is the issue here. parent have no control over this kind of thing because they're never provided with the means.And that before we get into all the cases of websites that just won't function without an account that usually wants your first name and country as a minimum info level. Often they want quite a bit more. It's very hard to avoid giving out a lot of information that can be used to personally identify you online unless you setup to block all cookies, (and a lot of websites will proceed to not function if you do that), and thats just not somthing most adults do.

[Touch My Hamm]

On 11/22/2019 at 6:32 PM, Donut417 said:

But here's the issue. Any type of video that is attractive to kids has to follow these rules. Meaning all the game streamers and such. So while they will get some ad revneue, you loose your notification bell, comments and other things. So pretty much killing those channels. What happens when this hits Twitch and Mixer? They basically FUCKED over a lot of people who make a living on this type of work. But its the Federal Government, FUCKING over small businesses is their job.

I see where the "Issue" is. The fact is the advertisers are flipping the bill. If you do not like how THEY want you to act your free to go somewhere else. That is the Joy of capitalism. If these YouTubers are relying on only ad revenue and trying to grow 1 channel then they are out of luck that time could be over. Maybe someone will create a new video platform to compete where its less about trying to make millions like Pewdiepie and more about enjoying video creation and sharing. 

[mr moose]

6 hours ago, GodSeph said:

Maybe someone will create a new video platform to compete where its less about trying to make millions like Pewdiepie and more about enjoying video creation and sharing. 

The problem is it doesn't work financially,  the only reason google can keep youtube running (for now) is they harvest so much data from it.  Any service you want where the content can be delivered with or without ad revenue is going to have to be user pays, so either the cost of an account or a cost to view.

 

 

[Touch My Hamm]

18 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The problem is it doesn't work financially,  the only reason google can keep youtube running (for now) is they harvest so much data from it.  Any service you want where the content can be delivered with or without ad revenue is going to have to be user pays, so either the cost of an account or a cost to view.

 

 

Hard to imagine when Youtube was first built, advertisers are starting to become smart to the online world. They are paying the bills so you have to play by their rules. If you do not like their rules you are free to go to another video platform. Yes they do data harvest but the way YouTubers get paid is through advertisers paying google. Google is not going to pay out YouTubers based on its data harvesting that is done.