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Sexist Apple Credit Cards

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Just when you thought the world could get no funnier this happens.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50365609

 

Quote

A US financial regulator has opened an investigation into claims Apple's credit card offered different credit limits for men and women.

It follows complaints - including from Apple's co-founder Steve Wozniak - that algorithms used to set limits might be inherently biased against women.

 

When even Steve Wozniak is complaining something must be wrong. 
 

Quote

But Mr Hansson, creator of the programming tool Ruby on Rails, said it highlights how algorithms, not just people, can discriminate. 

US healthcare giant UnitedHealth Group is being investigated over claims an algorithm favoured white patients over black patients.

Mr Hansson said in a tweet: "Apple Card is a sexist program. It does not matter what the intent of individual Apple reps are, it matters what THE ALGORITHM they've placed their complete faith in does. And what it does is discriminate."

He said that as soon as he raised the issue his wife's credit limit was increased.

This shows however there is a more serious side to things when a healthcare company is being investigated for racial discrimination.

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Data and programming will inevitably be tainted by bias. 

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And this is why you make sure you create an algorithm/ai/whatever that will also tell you wtf it's actually doing.

Also you need to make sure it sticks to the vocabulary you want or the reports it spits out might go from perfectly understandable into gibberish only the system understands.

If you want my attention, quote meh! D: or just stick an @samcool55 in your post :3

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Probably unrelated to the person's purchasing power.

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Just now, RejZoR said:

Remember how car insurance has been higher for men for years and no one gave a damn. One woman gets lower credit limit and everyone loses their shit...

Most don't care about these things, but some have spoken about them. And it isn't "just one woman" when you account for every instance where an algorithm is to blame for an interest rate, loan, etc. where a race or sex gets a lower or higher rate.

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3 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Remember how car insurance has been higher for men for years and no one gave a damn. One woman gets lower credit limit and everyone loses their shit...

You said remember. It is still currently like this. I remember reading about how machine learning has been used to show us how we are very much a sexist and racist world but we often don't even know it

ƆԀ S₱▓Ɇ▓cs: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Respecc teh wammens!

Seriously, they need proof that this is happening. I recall one research paper saying that men have a higher credit limit because they work more hours therefore have higher paying jobs allowing them to have greater credit limits. Let me see if I can find that paper and post it here.

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48 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

Apple's credit card offered different credit limits for men and women.

Well how did the spending habits of men/women differ? and/or what's the income gap in their sample?

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17 minutes ago, Xiee said:

Respecc teh wammens!

Seriously, they need proof that this is happening. I recall one research paper saying that men have a higher credit limit because they work more hours therefore have higher paying jobs allowing them to have greater credit limits. Let me see if I can find that paper and post it here.

In this case, Hansson's wife has a higher credit score than he does.  The algorithm just decided arbitrarily that she'd have a much lower score.  It may not have been explicitly sexist, but as New York's DFS said, it doesn't matter -- the point is that the credit limit was much lower for no good reason.

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23 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Remember how car insurance has been higher for men for years and no one gave a damn. One woman gets lower credit limit and everyone loses their shit...

Actually pretty much everyone hates insurance companies, not sure what field you stole that straw man from.

22 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

Most don't care about these things, but some have spoken about them. And it isn't "just one woman" when you account for every instance where an algorithm is to blame for an interest rate, loan, etc. where a race or sex gets a lower or higher rate.

Also if Steve Wozniak decided to make a statement about this it's clearly a significant and definite problem, not just a couple of oddball reports.

1 minute ago, Commodus said:

In this case, Hansson's wife has a higher credit score than he does.  The algorithm just decided arbitrarily that she'd have a much lower score.  It may not have been explicitly sexist, but as New York's DFS said, it doesn't matter -- the point is that the credit limit was much lower for no good reason.

The problem is that algorithms like this base themselves on statistics and those statistics are inevitably influenced by society at large - and guess what, society tends to have a negative bias towards women, especially when it comes to their finances. If women are paid less, on average, for the same job then that will inevitably impact their average credit scores. How much weight you give to those statistics, however, can be controlled by the developers who clearly didn't expect this problem or chose to ignore it.

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4 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Also if Steve Wozniak decided to make a statement about this it's clearly a significant and definite problem, not just a couple of oddball reports.

Anecdotal, but my mother and I both have phenomenal credit scores (762 me, ~800 her). She's had her cards for far longer than I have by a decade's minimum and I still have a card with a higher limit than her. Her credit history and mine are completely clean without late payments or high balance (aside from 3 hard checks for me). 

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5 minutes ago, Andreas Lilja said:

Where?

In much of the world women are on average paid less than men in equivalent jobs. The gender gap exists but is slowly closing. Now I appreciate that if a woman leaves her job for a couple of years to have and raise children that will understandably affect their progression. However the statistics show a clear divide even when those career breaks are taken into consideration.

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12 minutes ago, Andreas Lilja said:

Where?

Worldwide as far as I know, though the specific gap varies per country and there may be exceptions. The statistics are very clear and every academically accredited study reiterates the point, even when correcting for variables like pregnancy which could account for some career stagnation.

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26 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Worldwide as far as I know, though the specific gap varies per country and there may be exceptions. The statistics are very clear and every academically accredited study reiterates the point, even when correcting for variables like pregnancy which could account for some career stagnation.

I mean the difference for the same job seems negligible, they don't seem to account for hours worked.

 

https://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap

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36 minutes ago, Phill104 said:

In much of the world women are on average paid less than men in equivalent jobs. The gender gap exists but is slowly closing. Now I appreciate that if a woman leaves her job for a couple of years to have and raise children that will understandably affect their progression. However the statistics show a clear divide even when those career breaks are taken into consideration.

most of those studies are bs, they dont take into account the dozens of variables that need to be taken care of, the real wage gap in most of the west is 5% if that 

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Or you know, maybe it has to do with different spending habits/income. But hey, 2019, everything is sexist/racist/whatever-ist.

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2 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Or you know, maybe it has to do different spending habits/income. But hey, 2019, everything is sexist/racist/whatever-ist.

Look. This isn't a "men have higher driving rates, and crash rates so they pay 25% more car insurance".

 

This is "Man and woman share all accounts and funding sources, woman has higher credit score than man... woman has 1/10th the credit availability on this particular card."

 

That is far far far beyond different spending habits and income and straight into a blatantly sexist algorithm.

 

Which is not uncommon (in fact, it's extremely common) in ML based algorithms. Turns out machines are extremely good at finding, replicating, and amplifying our own systemic biases based on training sets.

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3 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

Look. This isn't a "men have higher driving rates, and crash rates so they pay 25% more car insurance".

 

This is "Man and woman share all accounts and funding sources, woman has higher credit score than man... woman has 1/10th the credit availability on this particular card."

Maybe I'm confused. Isn't the credit limit set on a per account basis? Maybe her credit score was higher, but the man had more money in his account and also spent more than her. This could explain why his limit was higher than hers.

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2 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Maybe I'm confused. Isn't the credit limit set on a per account basis? Maybe her credit score was higher, but the man had more money in his account and also spent more than her. This could explain why his limit was higher than hers.

No. They have ONLY shared finances and their limits were still an order of magnitude different.

 

That's how we know it is a real issue.

 

Basically all their other cards are said to have the same limits.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

No. They have ONLY shared finances and their limits were still an order of magnitude different.

 

That's how we know it is a real issue.

 

Basically all their other cards are said to have the same limits.

Huh, weird. But as I said maybe the algorithm noticed that the man made more transactions so he might need a higher limit? I doubt it goes if person=female then credit limit=credit limit/10.

 

EDIT: Even if that was the case, I still wouldn't call the algorithm sexist. I would call it broken. Algorithms just take data and make a decisions based on that data. There's a good chance that if it was indeed discriminating against women, it made that decision not because it hates women, but because based on the data it collected, it may have deemed women less trustworthy than men. If that is the case, I think it definitely needs to be adjusted to decide on a person by person basis, instead of grouping people together.

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24 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

most of those studies are bs, they dont take into account the dozens of variables that need to be taken care of, the real wage gap in most of the west is 5% if that 

In your opinion the studies are bs. I actually see it at work, and the difference is more than 5%. In the east I am sure you can appreciate the gap is a whole different thing. 
 

Either way, even 5% is too much. If two people are doing the same job to an equal standard they should receive equal renumeration. 
 

However all this is going off topic. We have algorithms here that are visibly biased whether is be based on sex or race. That needs to be investigated and where appropriate redressed.

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