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LukeSavenije

[psucultists] PSU Tier List

Spotty

For help choosing a power supply please Create a New Thread asking for assistance including your budget and system hardware to receive the best answers relevant to your specific needs.

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39 minutes ago, Juular said:

They come with 7 years warranty too. Any of those you've mentioned would do but since EVGA GM are cheapest one i'd go with it.

Those links point at units with arbitrary wattage, choose the one that you need, most of lower wattage versions have better availability but since tier S units are very high-end ones, usually they are very expensive either way, you'll be completely okay with tier A\A+ units instead, they're cheaper.

Thanks! Though checked Hungarian prices, and, the corsair costs roughly the same as Focus SGX, former with seven, latter with ten years IN STORE warranty. The Evga GM is more expensive than either of those, and only comes with 1-2 years STORE warranty (though I am aware, that the manufacturer's warranty is seven years :) )

 

Focus seems best bang for buck, though it only has one PCI-E cable. : )


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3 hours ago, Fitz000 said:

All the items I've clicked on in the top 2 tiers show no pricing history in your pcbuild links.

could just be you? i do get them

 

for problems with pcpp, you have to go to them, not me


PSU Tier List 4.0//Motherboard Tier List//Community Standards//ATX Specification//Group Regulation//Topologies and Regulations//How many watts?//PSU Protections

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2 hours ago, Vejnemojnen said:

Thanks! Though checked Hungarian prices, and, the corsair costs roughly the same as Focus SGX, former with seven, latter with ten years IN STORE warranty. The Evga GM is more expensive than either of those, and only comes with 1-2 years STORE warranty (though I am aware, that the manufacturer's warranty is seven years :) )

 

Focus seems best bang for buck, though it only has one PCI-E cable. : )

For the same price i'd go with Corsair, it's quieter and smaller.


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If you allready moved ROG Strix you should do the same with all other's FocusPlusGold platform based psu's including FocusFX too.
I see more and more people see that favoring multi-rail psu's (only in this tier list) is extremely stupid, i fully agree with previous comments about it.

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1 hour ago, Kaygooo said:

If you allready moved ROG Strix you should do the same with all other's FocusPlusGold platform based psu's including FocusFX too.
I see more and more people see that favoring multi-rail psu's (only in this tier list) is extremely stupid, i fully agree with previous comments about it.

Can you contribute to discussion about that with smth other than 'it's extremely stupid' ? This isn't your first post here and all of them were the same, you're not helping. ROG Strix were moved (i assume) because there were some review with testing overload ripple which may mean that it's newer revisions are based on Focus GX or there were some modifications that allowed it to perform better than base Focus FX platform (unlikely) or that this sole review with high overload ripple were performed on faulty unit, but since there were no other reviews of Focus FX with overload ripple testing we can't confirm the last version so only ROG Strix were moved. Regardless, this has nothing to do with it being single-rail and older Focus FX revisions had other problems other than high ripple so since it was phased out by Focus GX there are really no reason to move it back to tier A, if you want Seasonic Focus, buy newer, GX revision.


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my biggest problem with the tier list isn't its algorithm of ranking , i have my differences though regarding  giving priority to 12v ocp with its current method of implementation as stated previously 

the biggest flaw in my opinion  has more to do with the quality of the data that you base your judgments upon ,I see judgments made based on data from reviews  regardless of the competence and reputation of the reviewer and his lab equipment and does he even calibrate these equipment 

You can be the best Cardiologist in the world , and following the clinical practice guidelines of the American college of cardiology , but without having proper calibrated equipment all your hemodynamic parameters ( Blood pressure , Heart rate , ...etc) and blood analysis ( cardiac enzymes , electrolytes , ...etc) would be inaccurate and cause you to misdiagnose your patient

 

 


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A build with ryzen 5 3600x + rtx2070 is considered mid end or high end?

I've been thinking on getting a corsair cx650m, would it be good?

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9 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

I see judgments made based on data from reviews  regardless of the competence and reputation of the reviewer and his lab equipment and does he even calibrate these equipment 

can you point to one of these judgements instead of saying "i see" without presenting examples?

9 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

i have my differences though regarding  giving priority to 12v ocp with its current method of implementation as stated previously 

are you reffering to the pre alpha points method being tested for feasibility, or multirail being used for the highest tiers as those are supposed to be the "workstation" tiers of hardware?

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3 minutes ago, Pedroski said:

A build with ryzen 5 3600x + rtx2070 is considered mid end or high end?

I've been thinking on getting a corsair cx650m, would it be good?

cxm =//= cx.. you only need 550, as such the cx550 would be fine. 

 

depending on the region there might be other offerings. 

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@GoldenLag. This my problem with how multirail 12v  ocp is currently implemented and why it shouldn’t be that much of a priority to make a psu tier A+ 

On 1/24/2020 at 12:37 PM, Mezoxin said:

12vOCP is good to have , but its not a priority  

there is a reason why Aris doesn't give high priority for 12v OCP , because its not implemented properly and probably will be worthless in most scenarios , 

12v OCP is usually set at 40A , now look at the PCIe cables , the bottleneck when determining the maximum  sustained current it can withstand would be the pins at the back of the PSU , with most cables you would have 3 live wires with 3 pins , each pin is rated for a maximum sustained load of 8A  , that means it's only good for 24A  while the OCP is set at 40A , so that OCP won't protect your cable against damage unless the only reason you would exceed 24A would be some sort of resistive load that formed due to pinched wires or broken connectors that would cause your current to spike above 40 A , but in any use case that you will find yourself operating at a sustained load between 24A-40A you are damaging your cables without having your protections kick in 

now what happens if you overload your molex cables with pcie  adaptors ? would the 12vOCP help ? no it wont because again that cable would be rated for a maximum of 8A since it has a single 12V pin 

this is an rmi 850 

D7M5mXc.png

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HX1200

 


As for the data sources ,I wouldn’t trust any reviewer except Aris  as he is the only reviewer i have seen who is currently active and has the competence to know what he is talking about , proper calibrated lab equipment , consistent testing methodology and most importantly he tests protections.


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I agree in merging tier a with tier a+.

trying to tier them by performance and quality seems too much, if someone wants to know why txm is cheaper than rmx they should read a review. This list needs to stay simple, just add more psus, more info, more sources...

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5 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

As for the data sources ,I wouldn’t trust any reviewer except Aris  as he is the only reviewer i have seen who is currently active and has the competence to know what he is talking about , proper calibrated lab equipment , consistent testing methodology and most importantly he tests protections.

Any reasoning to not trust other reviewers? Or any examples as to only trust Aris?

 

6 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

GoldenLag. This my problem with how multirail 12v  ocp is currently implemented and why it shouldn’t be that much of a priority to make a psu tier A+

For the time being, this is likely to remain unchanged, tho description of the tiers might change to better represent them. 

 

I do understand why people dont entirely agree with the approach. 

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@GoldenLag the short answer would be , it's not cheap nor is it easy to have a state of the art lab , with equipment that are calibrated properly and periodically, and have the competence to know how to perform measurements and the importance  of a consistent methodology when doing reviews to have proper judgments

the only one i see who fits this profile and is currently active now is Aris , he is an electrical engineer with a PHD and decades of industry experience , he is even the only one who properly tests protections.

the examples for not trusting other reviewers are endless , i have seen contradicting results over the years with many reviewers that are well known , the latest i have seen was from zardon who stated that the Riotoro enigma g2 shutdown at 107% overload ,also when he tested the focus plus he reported the same ( This shows you he has a consistent flaw when taking measurements when testing for shut in load) , now that is a reviewer who has a pretty expensive lab and decent experience , but not expertise in PSU testing

https://www.kitguru.net/components/power-supplies/zardon/riotoro-enigma-850w-g2-power-supply-review/5/

https://www.kitguru.net/components/power-supplies/zardon/seasonic-focus-plus-gold-fx-850w-psu-review/5/

 

this is a pretty low value , and inconsistent with how OPP is normally set   above 125% by almost all manufacturers to allow for transient spikes when operating within its nominal capacity , and also inconsistent with the real values of the seasonic fx ( all models)  that has  its opp at 137% , as Aris has stated and many  other foreign reviewers have stated as well 

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/seasonic-focus-plus-gold-850-psu,5247-6.html 

 

BTW , you have decided to set the ritoro g2 in tier A based on Zardon faulty OPP measurements , as you have thought that it had its OPP is set below 120% Which you believe is when these 268mv dangerous ripples happen  according to the results of another review from PCeva that no one has ever  reproduced 

well then it neither has its OPP at 107% and guess what , another random reviewer says that it worked till 140% and then died , What to do now ? are we going to chase random reviewers to the rest of our lives ? or maybe make a  tier list of PSU reviewers ?

 

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/netzteile/46223-riotoro-enigma-g2-850w-im-test.html?start=1


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24 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

the latest i have seen was from zardon who stated that the Riotoro enigma g2 shutdown at 107% overload ,also when he tested the focus plus he reported the same ( This shows you he has a consistent flaw when taking measurements when testing for shut in load) , now that is a reviewer who has a pretty expensive lab and decent experience , but not expertise in PSU testing

that seems fairly consistant with pre-fix focus units with their lower OPP. Reviewed during the time period where there were pre-fix focus units around. 

25 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

and also inconsistent with the real values of the seasonic fx ( all models)  that has  its opp at 137%

thats with the post fix focus units. which raised the OPP, but left the PSU in a state where it rippled on overload. 

 

 

these specific untis are a bit difficult considering they had a fix that you cant tell wether you have the pre-fix or the post-fix model. where one has a 107% OPP and the other a 137%. one shutting down with higher power GPUs and the other having a ripple issue at overload. 

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Just now, GoldenLag said:

that seems fairly consistant with pre-fix focus units with their lower OPP. Reviewed during the time period where there were pre-fix focus units around. 

thats with the post fix focus units. which raised the OPP, but left the PSU in a state where it rippled on overload. 

 

 

these specific untis are a bit difficult considering they had a fix that you cant tell wether you have the pre-fix or the post-fix model. where one has a 107% OPP and the other a 137%. one shutting down with higher power GPUs and the other having a ripple issue at overload. 

Nope multiple reviews with the riotoro g2 have stated that it has opp much above that value , you can see the German one I linked and look for others , also both Aris and zardon reviews are within the same time 

you are just speculating that it was the one based on the Previous version of the fx

 


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@Mezoxin

So your points are :

 

1) Trust only select reviewers ? Then this tier list would shrink twice because Aris can't possibly test everything. And you can't possibly extrapolate reviews across units with the same platform so with this logic even half of Seasonic Focus or say CWT GPU based units would end-up untiered because they weren't tested by Aris and may perform differently to the base design. You still may tier those units to temporary positions but how that's a better approach than introducing the data from other, not so big reviewers if Aris didn't test them yet ?

2) Disregard multirail ? I don't think it benefits anyone, this is the whole point of this tier list, to show that one unit are better than the other, and multi-rail are one just another protection essentially, you could say disregard OTP in the same way then because who even runs the PSU this hot to trip it on most units ? But i agree that the requirements for tier A+ multirail should be revised, my proposition is to simply require that multi-rail unit should be digital, as in OCP tripping point should be configurable, then tier A+ will consist only of Corsair units but why not ?

 

Frankly, i think Luke and co have already heard us and there's no point in arguing on this over and over again, it's up to them to decide. Until then i really don't see nothing wrong both in Seasonic Focus FX units being detiered because of single review, this matter really brings a lot of attention here for some reason and yet people fail to recognize that Focus FX were phased out by newer revision and no longer relevant anyway. Neither i see wrong with current multi-rail requirements for tier A+\S, if you disregard it then just buy smth from tier A, merge A and A+ tiers and add some select tier A units to tier S (like Seasonic Prime maybe) in your mind. This is newbie friendly tier, newbies know shit about all this and only need basic guidance, this tier list provides that regardless of whether multi-rail units are tiered one tier up from single-rail ones, they're all good.


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12 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

Nope multiple reviews with the riotoro g2 have stated that it has opp much above that value , you can see the German one I linked and look for others

so that one died during OPP testing at 130%. below what is expected for the OPP of post fix focus and pre-fix focus. suspected faulty sample. 

 

and we dont know which focus as both were present during that period. 

16 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

you are just speculating that it was the one based on the Previous version of the fx

the OPP limits kinda point to that being the case when it shuts down at the level the pre-fix version should. and the other one shuts down at where the post fix version should. 

17 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

also both Aris and zardon reviews are within the same time 

doesnt mean they received the same product. especially during that period where both units were around. 

 

 

but since there is testing of both sticking around at that period, perhaps moving the G2 down wouldnt be a terrible idea. 

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2 hours ago, Juular said:

Can you contribute to discussion about that with smth other than 'it's extremely stupid' ? This isn't your first post here and all of them were the same, you're not helping. ROG Strix were moved (i assume) because there were some review with testing overload ripple which may mean that it's newer revisions are based on Focus GX or there were some modifications that allowed it to perform better than base Focus FX platform.

Everything was explained on previous pages about multi-rail, they don't have any advantage compared to good single-rail psu's and this tier list is confusing.
It's clear that Strix is FX based psu with some additional radiators and different asus fan, for proof strix was released before GX was even announced, you speak without even read it's tests where reviewers many times and clearly said its FX platform (kitguru, ithardware), you can even compare pcb and electronics of FX and Strix by yourselve (they are the same). Sorry, but i'd rather trust experts than random forum members like you. Stop being a hater of seasonic psu's because every time you are funnier.

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Just now, Kaygooo said:

Everything was explained on previous pages about multi-rail, they don't have any advantage compared to good single-rail psu's.
It's clear that Strix is FX based psu with some additional radiators and different asus fan, for proof strix was released before GX was even announced, you speak without even read it's tests where reviewers many times and clearly said its FX platform (kitguru, ithardware), you can even compare pcb and electronics of FX and Strix by yourselve (they are the same). Stop being a hater of seasonic psu's because every time you are more funny.

I don't know why Luke has moved ROG Strix up so you're objecting to the wrong person here. And i don't see the point in restating my opinion on multi-rail again, you can see it just in my previous post here.


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@GoldenLag no one tested opp for the prefix version of the Seasonic focus plus , do you have a review of that , all we knew about it is that it had shutdown problems with high end graphics cards 

 

strangely enough when Seasonic issued a statement  a while back on its Chinese website it said these shutdowns where due to aggressive OCP , which is odd as normally single rails don’t have 12v ocp , and the new version doesn’t as well , even the prime doesn’t have 12v ocp except for the 1000w variant 

 

@Juular these are not my exact two points , Specially when it comes to multi rail 


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2 minutes ago, Juular said:

I don't know why Luke has moved ROG Strix up so you're objecting to the wrong person here. And i don't see the point in restating my opinion on multi-rail again, you can see it just in my previous post here.

So if you dont know why he moved it, stay out of it please, i asked him not you.

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2 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

strangely enough when Seasonic issued a statement  a while back on its Chinese website it said these shutdowns where due to aggressive OCP , which is odd as normally single rails don’t have 12v ocp , and the new version doesn’t as well , even the prime doesn’t have 12v ocp except for the 1000w variant

Well, i can see that they refer to OPP in fact as it's really the same thing apart from different name for modern single-rail PSUs if we're talking about 12V rail.

3 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

 these are not my exact two points , Specially when it comes to multi rai

Then i may have problems following you, care to repeat your point in short ?

3 minutes ago, Kaygooo said:

So if you dont know why he moved it, stay out of it please, i asked him not you.

Okay Xi Jinping.


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 @Juular   In short , trust only credible reviewers not select , and there is no decent psu that isn’t reviewed by Aris btw, he has the biggest database of psu reviews , and I didn’t say disregard multirail , I said with how it’s currently implemented and the actual benefit it gives us , then it shouldn’t be a demand for top tier , That makes the tier rate a BitFenix formula higher than prime titanium  because that is just ridiculous 


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PC Case:  CM H500P Mesh White / PSU: Corsair RM850i -850w Gold  /Monitor :S27B970D

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19 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

@GoldenLag no one tested opp for the prefix version of the Seasonic focus plus , do you have a review of that , all we knew about it is that it had shutdown problems with high end graphics cards 

how do you know which is being tested?

 

also checked result for each and the corresponding effiency at a given wattage were the same on both Aris and Zardon. 

 

which would mean that either the equipment of Zardon suddenly stops delivering the correct current at 910w. or they were not testing identical PSUs. 

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27 minutes ago, Mezoxin said:

and I didn’t say disregard multirail , I said with how it’s currently implemented and the actual benefit it gives us , then it shouldn’t be a demand for top tier , That makes the tier rate a BitFenix formula higher than prime titanium  because that is just ridiculous 

Again, i agree that with current trend in how it's being implemented it's not really useful unless you can configure it yourself lower with digital units, and that because of that most multi-rail units should be on tier A. But with digital units it's still benefits you so to please both sides i think we need to get rid of tier A+ and make a requirements for tier S to be either digital multi-rail or stand-out in build quality or performance from tier A so both Corsair digital units and Seasonic high-end units (among others) would end-up there.


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