[EOL] PSU Tier List rev. 14.8

[Juular]

1 hour ago, LukeSavenije said:

group regulation, no uvp, no otp

 

it's worse than all 4 that I listed earlier

So you're saying that PSU with RGB fan could be bad ? Come on ...

Edit: Digital RGB fan nonetheless !

[LukeSavenije]

3 minutes ago, Juular said:

So you're saying that PSU with RGB fan could be bad ? Come on ...

as you can see... RGB doesn't make a psu perform better, contrary to popular belief

[SexualHealing]

Mr. LukeSavenije,

I believe your tier classification for Seasonic Focus Plus is unfair.

 

1 - You claim that its 12v OCP .at 136% is high, Corsair RM X is 157%.

2 - You back your claim with 120% load test from an unknown Chinese website presenting 268mv ripple which may be wrong. 

3 - Most PSUs don`t have load tests at 120% for comparison, not even by the same site and reviewer. The most known reviewers do not test more than 110%.

4 - Nobody is supposed to use the PSU above 100%, cetainly it may happen by ignorance and OCP should trigger when considered dangerous but assuming your source is valid. Is 268mv dangerous? It won`t be any good long term use but calling it dangerous is a bit too much.

5 - The test from the Chinese website is for the Platinum version, should be taken as the same to any other version.

 

 

[LukeSavenije]

1 minute ago, SexualHealing said:

1 - You claim that its 12v OCP .at 136% is high, Corsair RM X is 157%.

it's not the value, it's the performance it pulls off until it shuts down. i can have a tripping point of 500% and don't care, if it's still all inside specification

 

2 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

2 - You back your claim with 120% load test from an unknown Chinese website presenting 268mv ripple which may be wrong beause their 111% load test feels wrong, it shows the double of ripple measured by any known reviewer at 110%.

which shows it doesn't have any problems at those loads, hence clearly noting that it has issues, not that it's a bomb.

 

3 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

3 - Most PSUs don`t have load tests at 120% for comparison, not even by the same site and reviewer. The most known reviewers do not test more than 110%.

correct

 

3 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

4 - Nobody is supposed to use the PSU above 100%, cetainly it may happen by ignorance and OCP should trigger when considered dangerous

a psu should at least stay inside specification in the loads it's set for, this is why some focus units have been brought down to 110% (focus PX 2019 and Enigma G2 for example). the OCP is just where seasonic originally laid blame on with the GPU shutdown issues. 

 

5 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

Is 268mv dangerous? It won`t be any good long term use but calling it dangerous is a bit too much.

it's not dangerous, but will shorten lifspan the connected hardware quite harsh, especially since 268mv is way beyond spec

 

and as i said before, if it wasn't an issue, why would Seasonic try to fix it with their 2019 line?

[SexualHealing]

16 minutes ago, LukeSavenije said:

and as i said before, if it wasn't an issue, why would Seasonic try to fix it with their 2019 line?

 

The 120% load test lacks a more reliable source but the above statement lacks any source as far as i know Seasonic never said they would fix anything on the Focus Plus. 

 

I belive you did not see this one:

 

5 - The test from the Chinese website is for the Platinum version, should be taken as the same to any other version.

[LukeSavenije]

3 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

The 120% load test lacks a more reliable source but the above statement lacks any source as far as i know Seasonic never said they would fix anything on the Focus Plus. 

they did say so after the GPU issues on rev 1 of focus (which applied to the whole lineup, indicating it was something changed across the whole lineup.

 

with that they did some hardware changes to GX/GM/PX 2019 that mostly didn't relate to it, and testing does show it's all good now, so...

 

but i've gone into this multiple times, for now there won't be any changes

[SexualHealing]

8 minutes ago, LukeSavenije said:

they did say so after the GPU issues on rev 1 of focus (which applied to the whole lineup, indicating it was something changed across the whole lineup.

 

with that they did some hardware changes to GX/GM/PX 2019 that mostly didn't relate to it, and testing does show it's all good now, so...

 

 

Source for both statements? 

 

By the way the test from the Chinese site is for the Focus Platinum, not even the Focus Plus. Those are not the same PSU. If you assime it is all the same, Focus GX/GM/PX is also the same.

[LukeSavenije]

17 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

Source for both statements? 

https://knowledge.seasonic.com/article/20-focus-plus-and-gpu-potential-compatibility-issues

 

a rep at seasonic

[SexualHealing]

27 minutes ago, LukeSavenije said:

https://knowledge.seasonic.com/article/20-focus-plus-and-gpu-potential-compatibility-issues

 

a rep at seasonic

 

They don`t say they are fixing anything, not even that it requires a fix. 

 

You are assuming a lot of things.

 

You also assume that Focus Platinum is the same as Focus Gold, and also the same as any Focus Plus and same as V2(was it released?) and different of GX that Seasonic says the only difference are the cables. 

 

Just like the other PSUs in the list of any brand, if it was not tested at 120% it is not the same as Focus Platinum. PSUs should be innocent until proven contrary.

 

Also more reliable test sources should be used. .

[nikdek]

Hi, new PS from Seasonic, Core GM and and Core GC, any infos on these ?

https://seasonic.com/core-gm

 

cheers

[Juular]

16 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

They don`t say they are fixing anything, not even that it requires a fix.

Of course they don't. How Seasonic fanboys would keep believing that Seasonic are bestest of the best otherwise ? But they did try to fix ripple issues by shipping shielded cables with inline caps for those who contacted support about that, and did discontinue old Focus lineup, replacing it under cause of changing name convention, making some hardware changes to the platform along the way, which are kinda hard to see other than a bunch of additional filtering caps, but apparently this worked.

16 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

You also assume that Focus Platinum is the same as Focus Gold

I'm not an expect but even just looking at the pictures it's obvious that platform are the same, it was just pushed a bit further to Platinum efficiency certification which obviously doesn't affect anything bu the efficiency per se. It's different to another high-end Seasonic platform which used in the PRIME lineup, which also has Gold and Platinum rated units. AFAIK Focus Gold v2 are v1 with different cables, Focus GX, again, are different hardware-wise, although very subtly.

16 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

 PSUs should be innocent until proven contrary.

Then you should google around about people having problems with Focus PSUs, there were quite a few even on this forum alone, even with shielded cables, that indicates some problems with the platform in general or maybe QC problems on some batches. Either way with older units being phased out there are really no reason to discuss this matter all again, it'll be eventually sold out and become irrelevant.

2 minutes ago, nikdek said:

Core GM and and Core GC, any infos on these ?

No reviews, we can assume that it's possibly somewhat downgraded Focus but no further than that.

[nikdek]

thanks fro the prompt reply

[SexualHealing]

1 hour ago, Juular said:

Of course they don't. How Seasonic fanboys would keep believing that Seasonic are bestest of the best otherwise ? But they did try to fix ripple issues by shipping shielded cables with inline caps for those who contacted support about that, and did discontinue old Focus lineup, replacing it under cause of changing name convention, making some hardware changes to the platform along the way, which are kinda hard to see other than a bunch of additional filtering caps, but apparently this worked.

I'm not an expect but even just looking at the pictures it's obvious that platform are the same, it was just pushed a bit further to Platinum efficiency certification which obviously doesn't affect anything bu the efficiency per se. It's different to another high-end Seasonic platform which used in the PRIME lineup, which also has Gold and Platinum rated units. AFAIK Focus Gold v2 are v1 with different cables, Focus GX, again, are different hardware-wise, although very subtly.

Then you should google around about people having problems with Focus PSUs, there were quite a few even on this forum alone, even with shielded cables, that indicates some problems with the platform in general or maybe QC problems on some batches. Either way with older units being phased out there are really no reason to discuss this matter all again, it'll be eventually sold out and become irrelevant.

No reviews, we can assume that it's possibly somewhat downgraded Focus but no further than that.

 

The assumption that all Focuses have an issue is simply wrong, simply because it is an assumption. There is no proof.

Even in the case of Focus Platinum it is very questionable due to the source but very undertandable,

 

Focus Platinum uses different components of Focus Gold, and different ones of Focus Plus. It can be checked at the Cybenetics website.

 

Not even the Focus Plus Gold 650 is the same as the others Focus Pluses Gold, the 650 uses different components and has worse performance.

 

These are all different PSUs and this a fact, not an assumption.

 

According to Seasonic the GX is not different of Focus Plus except for the lack of in cable capacitors. That is according to the official source and is true until proven contrary. There is no other source showing it is different..

 

If we have to assume things instead of checking facts, all focuses including the GX have to be on the same C tier.

 

 

[Juular]

52 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

Focus Platinum uses different components of Focus Gold, and different ones of Focus Plus. It can be checked at the Cybenetics website.

Focus Plus Gold :

Focus Plus Platinum :

As you see, they have nearly identical components set, aside for differences in APFC stage. And anyway, the PSU isn't only the set of components, it's entire platform, that's why there's a lot of different ones, performing good and not so much. And we can't possibly evaluate every every wattage of every PSU lineup\platform just because they have differently rated MOSFETS or filtering capacitors, simply because otherwise this tier list would be impossible to make since there aren't enough data. We have user data on issues with Seasonic Focus platform as a whole, GPU shutdowns where it shouldn't by any means (say GTX1070 Ti on 650W Focus Gold Plus), that one review with high overload ripple are just drop in the ocean.

Whether it was intermittent issue with some batches or some core issue in platform itself - doesn't matter, Seasonic acknowledged the issue, tried to fix it with users which had it and contacted support, discontinued the whole lineup and there are no reports (yet) of such problems with newer SKUs (Focus GX\PX, Phanteks AMP, XPG Core Reactor etc.), this doesn't mean that they were fixed but until it's proven that they weren't we tier it at tier A since there were apparenely some hardware changes which could've made a difference.

52 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

If we have to assume things instead of checking facts, all focuses including the GX have to be on the same C tier.

This whole tier list are mostly made based on reviews with assumption & guessing work, there are simply not enough data to strictly tier every unit available. And Focus GX were tiered the same as FX until review of Phanteks AMP showed up which passed overload ripple testing. Also there are no reports of problems with it (or other GX based units) yet so we make an assumtion that it's good. Before that, on older tier list, we made an assumption that FX\FM\PX were good too, it proved to be wrong because there are a lot of reports of GPU instability and Seasonic themselves acknowledged that.

52 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

According to Seasonic the GX is not different of Focus Plus except for the lack of in cable capacitors.

Even looking at the pictures you can see that there are some difference, at least in the output filtering, which probably isn't the core cause because there were reports that issues persist even with shielded cables Seasonic supplied.

[SexualHealing]

3 hours ago, Juular said:

moderator *snip*

please avoid quoting long posts.

 

These two are not the same, i did not check it but you say the AFPC is diferent. So it is not the same. The 650W Focus Plus Gold have difference in two components only and the overall performance gets a very decent hit. It was not even the Focus Plus that was tested in the Chinese site, it is the Focus. 

 

Regarding sources i could downgrade or upgrade many of the PSUs on the list if i go for less reliable sources. As an example the MWE V2 ripple is above ATX specification under normal load according to a non widely recognizable source that is popular in Netherlands. 

 

Using a less reliable source to say the Focus has an issue when a lot of completely reliable sources do not point any issue is very selective and biased.

 

By the way HardOCP tested Focus Plus Gold at high overloads and it showed no issues. Unfortunately they removed all the reviews from that site.

 

In those cases the most unbiased way would be to put the PSU in the tier it belongs according to widely recognizable source(s) but with an observation like a  citation number used by wikipedia where it would say something like "According to PcEva.com.cn the ripple goes above ATX specs at 120% load".

 

By the assumption method, the internals picture of the GX available at Seasonic website look the same as Focus Plus, i can`t spot any difference. Add to that Seasonic does not claim it is any different. Why not assume it is the same?

 

The assumption that all PSUs under the same platform are the same is not in accordance with this very Tier list, not only because of the GX there are other PSUs in the list using the very same platforms but are in different tiers.

Edited February 10, 2020 by wkdpaul

[Fasauceome]

5 hours ago, SexualHealing said:

PSUs should be innocent until proven contrary.

Never, not when expensive hardware is on the line.

 

Would you have told that to all the people who put their Vega 56 or 64 or 1080 ti on a Focus Plus and it shuts down during gaming? We still get occasional threads from users befuddled as to why their PSU is causing random shutdowns, who did what you said and assumed the PSU was good before looking into what kind of problems it has.

 

This entire discourse is pointless because a) the focus plus is discontinued and b) because people are actually having this problem in real life, the review isn't the only source of data that the PSU shuts down under that load.

 

Really, it doesn't matter that the focus is where it is because the GX is out.

[SexualHealing]

6 minutes ago, Fasauceome said:

Never, not when expensive hardware is on the line.

 

Would you have told that to all the people who put their Vega 56 or 64 or 1080 ti on a Focus Plus and it shuts down during gaming? We still get occasional threads from users befuddled as to why their PSU is causing random shutdowns, who did what you said and assumed the PSU was good before looking into what kind of problems it has.

 

This entire discourse is pointless because a) the focus plus is discontinued and b) because people are actually having this problem in real life, the review isn't the only source of data that the PSU shuts down under that load.

 

Really, it doesn't matter that the focus is where it is because the GX is out.

The GX is Focus Plus based.

 

The problems people had, had nothing to do with the tier requirements of the list. Pceva thing does, but...all i said.

[Fasauceome]

3 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

The problems people had, had nothing to do with the tier requirements of the list. Pceva thing does, but...all i said.

It's totally cool that there a special circumstance imo because the tier specifically says that it fails under specific circumstances, which it does. Slap a Vega on that bad boy and it'll shut down or ripple like hell. Telling people it's bad and why is important, that's why the focus topic is linked in my sig.

 

3 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

The GX is Focus Plus based.

But the new focus model doesn't suffer from the same problem so again, it doesn't matter. It can handle the brutal transients, unlike its predecessor

[SexualHealing]

7 minutes ago, Fasauceome said:

But the new focus model doesn't suffer from the same problem so again, it doesn't matter. It can handle the brutal transients, unlike its predecessor

Source? Everytime i ask for one none is provided, hopefully you can point me to a reliable source otherwise GX and all new Focuses belongs to Tier C according to your assumption methodology. They are all in the same platform.

[Juular]

13 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

The problems people had, had nothing to do with the tier requirements of the list. Pceva thing does, but...all i said.

Are you saying we should put it in the same tier with units that would actually work with anything you'll plug in it in contrast with Focus FX which doesn't work with half of the GPUs above 200W just because it looks good on (most) reviews ? This looks awful lot like trying to make excuses to put Seasonic to the top tier just because it's Seasonic, don't you think ? I any Corsair \ be quiet! \ BitFenix units had similiar issues they would've ended up detiered too. And regarding that high ripple issue with CM MWE Bronze, i think, it's fixed on V2, but not sure, might have @LukeSavenije word on this.

2 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

Source? Everytime i ask for one none is provided, hopefully you can point me to a reliable source otherwise GX and all new Focuses belongs to Tier C according to your assumption methodology. They are all in the same platform.

We don't have source that GX doesn't have issues with GPU stability, but detiering it too seems a bit too far, there are some hardware changes, namely more filtering on the output, so it's quite possibly that it's good. As of sources on issues with FX, you've seen Seasonic announcement already, and there are some threads on this forum alone, i don't care to dig them up, maybe search for 'Seasonic Focus issues', smth should show up.

[GoldenLag]

2 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

Source? Everytime i ask for one none is provided, hopefully you can point me to a reliable source otherwise GX and all new Focuses belongs to Tier C according to your assumption methodology. They are all in the same platform.

https://knowledge.seasonic.com/article/20-focus-plus-and-gpu-potential-compatibility-issues

 

fixed with post January 2018. which then has the ripple issue at overloads instead. 

[Fasauceome]

3 minutes ago, SexualHealing said:

Source? Everytime i ask for one none is provided, hopefully you can point me to a reliable source otherwise GX and all new Focuses belongs to Tier C according to your assumption methodology. They are all in the same platform.

Seasonic literally sent a unit to @LukeSavenije so he could see the changes himself. If he says it's different, it's different.

 

[Juular]

4 minutes ago, Fasauceome said:

Seasonic literally sent a unit to @LukeSavenije so he could see the changes himself. If he says it's different, it's different.

Oh, Luke are reviewing PSUs now ! Come on, he doesn't even have hardware yet, nor FX unit to compare it to, we're all basically amateurs here in comparison with JG and Aris, hence this tier list can and has a good amount of subjectivity in it. But really, there are no need to discuss Focus FX anymore, there were a plenty already, and all arguments can be parried by simple facts, a) Seasonic acknowledged issues, b) Seasonic made newer revision and discontinued old one. Whether newer revision still has problems or not is unclear, time will show, until then we assume that it's good.

[SexualHealing]

5 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

https://knowledge.seasonic.com/article/20-focus-plus-and-gpu-potential-compatibility-issues

 

fixed with post January 2018. which then has the ripple issue at overloads instead. 

It does not say anything other than Focus Plus v1 compatibility issue with a few graphic cards.

[SexualHealing]

6 minutes ago, Fasauceome said:

Seasonic literally sent a unit to @LukeSavenije so he could see the changes himself. If he says it's different, it's different.

 

 

So he should post the screenshot of his oscilloscope with ripple at 120% load, until it is not done it is the same as the test by Pceva. According to yourself.