Fortnite Sued: As addictive as Cocaine

[Guest]

I dont like Fortnite so this is fine. 

[RuffRuffmcgruff]

It'd be great if people could actually sue for real issues. Give people the power to sue big pharma over crippling addictions to opioids...

[jasonvp]

14 hours ago, ARikozuM said:

I would normally agree, but many adults are currently working more than 40 hours a week and don't have much time to take care of children fully. 

That's not the fault of the video game maker.  That's the fault of the parent(s).  They chose to spawn, it's their fucking responsibility above all else to raise those spawn in the best way they can.  If that means cutting the work hours, so be it.  That's called: life.

[Donut417]

5 minutes ago, jasonvp said:

that means cutting the work hours, so be it.  That's called: life.

So being kicked out on the street is ok with you? You don’t know the financial situation. Here in the US most live pay check to pay check. So cutting the work hours is not an option. She some have to work 2 or 3 jobs just to survive. 

[Trik'Stari]

32 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Battle Royales need to die, and arena shooters need to come back.

 

Also good to see people confusing addiction and obsession.  Cocaine is addictive because of chemical changes in the brain that things like gambling and gaming cannot do.  Similar, but not the same thing.

Not a huge fan of arena shooters. I prefer battlefield 1 style.big maps, big teams, lots of action and chaos. Less predictable and more challenging in a fun way.

[jasonvp]

14 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

So being kicked out on the street is ok with you? You don’t know the financial situation. Here in the US most live pay check to pay check. So cutting the work hours is not an option. She some have to work 2 or 3 jobs just to survive. 

Again: that's not an issue a third party needs to solve.  No one forced the couple to have kids; they did that on their own.  That decision comes with intense consequences and responsibilities, regardless of the setting.  It is, simply: the most important decision a person (or more accurately a couple) will make in his or her life.  Trying to blame society, a game maker, a teacher, another company, etc for your inability to properly raise your child(ren) is folly.  And it proves you made the wrong decision pertaining to kids.

[Doobeedoo]

Again this thing? These so called people are parents, they should be sued for being trash at parenting! 

[ARikozuM]

2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

 The game is not like cocaine!  Cocaine causes chemical changes in the brain that causes addiction.  These dopamine changes are causing an obsession at best, and parents and others are using excuses to hide the fact that they have shitty parenting skills or no time to parent in general, hence why they should have a babysitter do it if they want to have kids. 

Gambling does the same thing to your brain. If you design a game to be fun and addictive, while also encouraging spending, you are enabling addiction. It doesn't matter if there's a substance or not. 

[Lowbuget]

14 hours ago, Arika S said:

"I'm not a bad parent that doesn't keep an eye on what my kids are doing or set rules for leisure time. It's those damn video games!!!"

its both

[Trik'Stari]

31 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

I kinda grew up in the 90s, so Doom Death Matches, Quake 3, and the og Unreal Tournament were love.  I do play Quake Champions too.

I did as well but never played those very much.

[RejZoR]

Oh my god, fun things being addictive. Who would've thought! People like doing fun things! I wonder why monotone, boring chores aren't addictive, but fun games that hardly ever repeat themselves are. Hm hm...

 

“knowingly put on the market a very, very addictive game which was also geared toward youth.”

 

Company making a popular product that caters to a wide audience. Totally not like any other food, tech or fashion braned ever, that's not a matter of this lawsuit. Heh. I may disagree with a lot of Epic's BS, but I'm gonna defend them here. If anyone should be blamed it's the parents, not a game company...

[Dedayog]

15 hours ago, TempestCatto said:

Addiction is a result of bad parenting. Teach them about moderation and variety; they'll do well in life.

 

(just my two cents)

Absolutely incorrect.  Moderation and variety have nothing to do with addition. Addiction is the mind/body reaction to a thing.  Obsession is more of what you're looking at in your comment.

 

Parenting is not the easiest thing on the planet, of just putting down rules and expecting your kids to fall in line. I mean, you CAN beat them emotionally to keep them broken and under control I guess.  But when you have schools and social media input.. it's not as easy as saying "no Fortnite for you" when all their friends play it.

 

You have to balance giving and taking, generosity and frugality, etc.  Like all things, parenting is a balance.

 

At the end of the day, kids will  come out pretty good for the most part.  The long term harm of Fortnite isn't in question here, it's the short term.  That immediate need and reaction, the dopamine is infact a thing.  Same as any other addiction, your body releasing chemicals/hormones when certain criteria are reached.  Or even the opposite, the body dumping negative chems/hormones when kids feel they're behind the curve or not as good (gotta git gud!!!!).

 

Been there, I've chased those rabbits for that high.  Not gaming, but sex and cars and guns.  I understand the feelings that are driving these kids to spend non-stop time doing a thing.  Chasing that feeling.

 

It's hard, because as a parent I dealt with this stuff.  Finding burner phones because social media was addicting, video game time, clothing trends, keeping up with the Jones', etc.

 

Like everything in life, it's not black and white.  Part parenting, part society, part human nature.

 

Edit:  btw, if you AREN"T including psychologists in your game creation (for these types of games) you're an idiot. Not doing everything you can to make a game successful, including finding out what makes people want to keep playing it... dumb.

[Murasaki]

So basically they're suing a company for making a game that kids play and their parents suck at parenting?

Why the fuck can't you do this with creepy youtube kids channels?!?!??!?!?!?!

[Anomnomnomaly]

I've been saying this about social media in general for the last 7-8yrs. There is now a direct correlation to the use of social media, addiction and the detriment to mental health.

 

Game companies have simply taken that and applied it to their product, and surprise, surprise (not really) we see a massive increase in mental health issues and addiction.

 

It's why I deleted my social media account 7yrs ago, and although I do have a twitter account... it's used solely for the purpose of calling out companies shady practices when they ignore and treat customers like crap... and by customers, I mean me. I've called out 4 companies using it after having complaints ignored and gotten 4 results... Amazing how quickly the act when you start tagging them with #fraud #incompetent #useless #scammers and so forth. 

 

I had a G+ account... which to this day is still the only (former) social media platform that struck the right balance (until they fucked with the format and ruined it, then shut it down because people left because they fucked with the format).

 

So to sum up

 

social media sucks due to it's use of psychological manipulation to get people addicted and no one does anything about it... games companies adopt the exact same practices and once it starts costing people money... now they want something done.

 

Just another example of 'games are evil'  no they're not... the companies employing devious, insipid, unethical, immoral and dangerous business practices are the true evil.

[TechyBen]

17 hours ago, Fasauceome said:

right, ok

Steam/Valve literally have a Psychologist on staff to work out their sales schemes. Made them a ton of cash... not sure if real Psychologist or con man with purchased degree from Ebay. Either way, it worked.

[Touch My Hamm]

I remember when I was young playing nothing but my N64 and if my mother thought I was playing too much she would walk to my room unplug the thing and that would be that. I would be forced to go outside with friends. Why has this changed...I am not a parent so I do not understand how parents when I was little had complete control over this but now they feel powerless? I am sure like myself alot of us complained about losing video games if they were taken away but eventually we got over it. What is it about today that makes this different? It seems like graphics are better but they are still just video games. they are not a necessary right, they are a privilege and kids should know this?

[Fasauceome]

53 minutes ago, TechyBen said:

Steam/Valve literally have a Psychologist on staff to work out their sales schemes. Made them a ton of cash... not sure if real Psychologist or con man with purchased degree from Ebay. Either way, it worked.

That makes sense to me, but a psychologist game developer seems a stretch for epic games, a significantly smaller operation

[Suika]

So if I always figured that Fortnite was uninteresting and have always been uninterested in ever playing it again after I tried it, does that mean I can't become addicted to cocaine?

 

Shit, I need to try that out.

[Donut417]

2 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

you're having a pet, child, or whatever that is your responsibility.  Asking the world to babysit your kid because of your life choices is shitty to do.  If you don't have the time to take care of a child then don't have a child or pay for a babysitter.

Poor people tend to have more kids. If m not going to get in to a discussion on abortion or planned parenthood. But the fact is people are going to fuck. Not all of them have access to contraceptives. With states waging wars on women’s rights. That doesn’t help matters. But fact is Kids happen. It’s the parent’s responsibility to make sure they don’t die. For many that’s all they can do. 

 

Also I’m not saying it’s the companies fault. I’m just point out your error in logic. You don’t understand how the world works, especially in the US. We are not socialist like Europe where you get awesome benefits. Most of us are just trying to survive.

[AlTech]

There are literally memes on reddit of pretty much exactly this.

For example:

 

Honestly this whole situation feels like a really bad joke on the part of the parents.

[Anomnomnomaly]

3 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

 their kid being obsessed with a game is their fault.  Obsessions are the exact result of habitat and/or poor choices. 

 

I have to take issue with this part.

 

Medical studies have shown that some people are genetically more susceptible to addictive behaviours than others... and when combined with a product that is deliberately designed to manipulate people based on psychological research... to elicit that kind of a response. Then we have a major issue that may not be something that can be controlled by a parent.

 

Anyone, from any background, any culture, and economic situation... is just as prone to this as any other. Addiction comes in many forms... do you blame the alcoholic for his illness, do you blame the junkie because they got hooked after a bad choice? Do you blame the partner who refuses to leave an abusive relationship? Do you blame the smoker for getting cancer? Do you blame the fat person for being bulimic or the skinny person for being anorexic?

 

If you do blame of them.. then I'm afraid you don't understand addiction and you don't understand how it can take over a person and consume them. The only way these people can deal with and beat addiction is with professional help, treatment and support. Blaming them only continues the cycle and deepens the addiction, making it harder and harder to break.

 

Now... we all probably know some one who's an addict. You probably may not even know it... they may not even know it. I spent a lot of the 90's dealing with troubled teenagers as a youth and social worker. Kids who couldn't stay at home, kids who used drugs, kids who were being groomed by gangs. Some made it, some didn't... So when ever I see anyone blaming all of these things on a specific subset of society... I have to call them on that and hope that they're reasonable enough to learn and understand why they are wrong.

 

[mr moose]

11 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Again, this is an obsession not an addiction.

I've linked to that article before on loot box discussions.  The problem with using it here is that it does not say exactly what you claim it does.  There is a clear definition difference between obsession and addiction, however in gambling and gaming and similar behavioral conditions there is comorbidity.   This means it cannot be accurately defined as one and not the other because both exist in the condition exacerbating the problem.    This is going to be a very interesting one to play  out in a court,  however it won't end there,  psychologists will be studying and debating this for decades after this court case has come and gone.

 

The basic difference:

https://pro.psychcentral.com/exhausted-woman/2015/04/the-difference-between-an-obsession-and-an-addiction/

 

And a long read but goes into detail about addictive conditioning and why it is so commonly misrepresented:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-addictive-personality-isn-t-what-you-think-it-is/

 

Paraphrasing,  it says people become addicted to different things for different reasons (outside of chemical addiction).  there is no way to tell outside of certain extreme outlier personality types.  So in relation to the OP, it is not possible to determine a definitive causality for behavioral addiction and obsession is largely a part of it.  But it is possible to demonstrate addictive components within an activity for certain personality types. Which I believe is what @Anomnomnomaly  was saying.   That is why this case is so interesting, it proposes that there is enough evidence now to make claims about addictive personality traits and tie them to intention product design.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Anomnomnomaly]

40 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Again, this is an obsession not an addiction.  https://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=9198 Just like with gambling obsessions this is caused by habitat and poor decisions.  Yet, mental health issues can make obsessions worse, just like they can make chemical addictions worse.  However, they aren't exactly the same thing.  An alcoholic is one with a chemical addiction, like a drug addiction.  There are chemicals causing these addictions.  Yes, I do blame the parents, not the child.  The parent is the one who gave the kid the game.  The parent is the one who did not take it away.  That is a habitat based problem followed by poor decisions by the parent.  A child is not going to go into the same style of withdraw as they would with cocaine if mommy or daddy takes his game away.  They might throw a temper tantrum like most kids do, but that's just part of being a parent.  Blaming the corporation because of some conspiracy theory, yes I read your other response, is silly.

If your parent gave you heroin is it not their fault that you are addicted to heroin?

 

You don't seem to understand the difference between an obsessive disorder and an addictive one.... Oh and BTW.. "both" are mental health issues in case you didn't know... or is the person with OCD also to blame for being unable to cope unless they check the door is locked 50 times before they can leave the house each day (or any of the other thousands of ways these illnesses can manifest).

Parents are not qualified or prepared to deal with either of these things. You cannot magically predict them and you cannot blame those for failing to spot things they have no
training/qualifications to spot.

 

I've actually had training in these areas... I'm not a professional, I was a social worker and youth worker for about 8yrs... I've dealt with things like this back when people still thought like you do now. You cannot cure an illness by blaming the ill or those around them who are unable to diagnose medical issues.

 

You think that letting little Timmy play a game for too long is to blame and it's entirely the parents fault for letting him play for too long... it's not... it's simply the trigger for a bigger underlying issue that the game brings to the surface. An addict is still an addict regardless of the source of the addiction.

 

I've suffered with addiction myself... I've learned how to spot and avoid those things that can lead to problems... Just like that game is toxic for little Timmy. Taking the game away solves nothing, an addict simply looks for that fix elsewhere... Only with professional help, treatment and support can they learn how to cope with it, and avoid the triggers that set it off. Blaming the parents is what people who don;t understand these kinds of illness do... and to use your own argument against you... the ones more likely to not understand that, or refuse to accept it are those of a lower social/economic/educational status. 

 

You are trying to simplify a very complex issue, but I am not surprised. Very few people understand it... My own understanding is nothing compared to those professionals who have spent years training on how to spot it and deal with it. Mental health is a serious issue and it should NOT be brushed of and dismissed as you are doing. It needs to be acceptable to talk about it and open up about what it can do to people... blaming and shaming people who cannot be held responsible is.. well there's no other way to put it... it's ignorance. So please learn more about it, please learn to be more tolerant and please try to support people who have a mental illness rather than treating them and those around them like pariahs.

[Blademaster91]

7 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

Pretty much.  They're claiming that misguided obsessions are addictions intentionally caused by Epic.  In reality this is caused by a poor habitat and/or poor choices.  Parents like making excuses for their piss poor parenting.  I say we take the parents away since that's clearly the cause of the problem.

Epic good parents bad.

A parent can be doing everything beneficial for their child, however if a game is designed to cause addiction, or to milk a parent's wallet with microtransactions then IMO the game should be treated the same as the lootboxes.

[mr moose]

20 minutes ago, Anomnomnomaly said:

 Mental health is a serious issue and it should NOT be brushed of and dismissed as you are doing. It needs to be acceptable to talk about it and open up about what it can do to people... blaming and shaming people who cannot be held responsible is.. well there's no other way to put it... it's ignorance.

This is something I have been fighting for for a very long time. Like you,  I also worked in social services in the 90's.  Trying to encourage kids to find alternative ways to give their life meaning. Especially  when they are fully entrenched in demographic of people who want them to become a slave to the drug/gang/lifestyle (whatever it maybe). 

 

This is such a complex issue that people should either educate themselves and look hard at the problem trying to find a solution or they should simply shut up.  No one walks into the theatre and starts operating on someone thinkingthey understand the problem, so why would you tell someone undertaking therapy for an addictive problem what their issue is?