Rather disappointed in LMG and their endorsement of Ring.

[kris44dad]

Long time fan, but...

 

I have to say that I am rather disappointed in LMG's recent endorsement of the Ring surveillance system.  The potential abuses  of the subsidized giveaway by law enforcement [in America] are staggering, considered actual abuses perpetrated already without it. I hope LMG reconsiders their position.  This is endorsement money they could easily do without.

[williamcll]

Just DIY your own security with Rasberry Pi then.

[DrMacintosh]

4 hours ago, kris44dad said:

The potential abuses  of the subsidized giveaway by law enforcement [in America] are staggering, considered actual abuses perpetrated already without it.

Unless you have a fact based argument, I choose to believe that the LMG staff is more than capable of investigating their partners and determining if doing business with them is in the best interest of LMG. 

[Kisai]

8 hours ago, kris44dad said:

Long time fan, but...

 

I have to say that I am rather disappointed in LMG's recent endorsement of the Ring surveillance system.  The potential abuses  of the subsidized giveaway by law enforcement [in America] are staggering, considered actual abuses perpetrated already without it. I hope LMG reconsiders their position.  This is endorsement money they could easily do without.

 

It really depends on your point of view I guess.

 

If your view is that one should be entitled to privacy and liberty at all costs, then you'd stay away from all video cameras and security devices. With that said, "if you have nothing to hide..." arguments for surveillance are pretty weaselly too. 

 

An ideal compromise is that everything, outside the physical building, public or privately owned is fair game for surveillance, as long as all properties are treated equally. For example, there might be 6000 cameras per square kilometer in the "bad part" of town owned by private security companies subcontracted to the city, but less than a dozen in the "rich neighborhood". That's not fair at all.

 

Like if we are being absolutely deadly serious on the use of video surveillance, all vehicles should have front-and-rear dash cams, and turned over to law enforcement in the exact same manner. People will balk about that because dash cams routinely show the driver or passenger committing small traffic violations. 

 

In a perfect society, there would be no need to use surveillance to scare people into following the rules. It would be used to solve missing person/traffic accident/porch pirates, and never permitted to go fishing for low-hanging fruit crimes to punish over serious life-or-death incidents.

[LogicalDrm]

Essentially you are taking issue in your country's legal system as full, not the company itself. As this falls down to same as with ISPs, routers etc. How do law enforcement get access, with what basis and so on. If company decides that they don't follow set laws about giving access to their services, then thats whole another deal, and one that should get more attention. Is Ring big enough to get that kind of headlines if being discovered?

[dizmo]

I've always been blown away that people take ad spots as anything more than that. An ad. Do your own research and come to your own conclusion. As you should with everything in life. 

[aaradorn]

I just think its funny Ring would still sponsor them after the whole raspberry pie camera thing where they tore ring a new one.

[3 Lions]

To be honest I don't really see the point in Ring or the other doorbells with cameras anyway. I mean sure maybe you want to see who's at the door before you answer it but they are certainally not going to scare off theives or potential scammers. What sort of theif would ring the doorbell anyway? I'm no expert in robbing a house but surely you'd break in trough a window or at the very least smash the doors in.

Edited September 27, 2019 by LinusTechTipsFanFromDarlo

[Blademaster91]

10 hours ago, DrMacintosh said:

Unless you have a fact based argument, I choose to believe that the LMG staff is more than capable of investigating their partners and determining if doing business with them is in the best interest of LMG. 

Yeah sure, yet Tunnelbear and PIA were also endorsed by LMG.

[kelvinhall05]

6 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

Yeah sure, yet Tunnelbear and PIA were also endorsed by LMG.

They parterned with Tunnelbear until McAfee bought them, then they stopped. IIRC that "whistleblower" on Reddit was never proven to be a real PIA employee.

[Blademaster91]

6 minutes ago, kelvinhall05 said:

They parterned with Tunnelbear until McAfee bought them, then they stopped. IIRC that "whistleblower" on Reddit was never proven to be a real PIA employee.

Yeah I can't blame LMG for the Tunnelbear thing, i'm glad they stopped. I've never heard of the whistleblower on Reddit, but apparently PIA's support was mediocre according to Reddit. I agree people should do their own research before blindly buying things from an ad, the integrated ads are kinda annoying imo so I just skip over those.

 

[TempestCatto]

33 minutes ago, LinusTechTipsFanFromDarlo said:

What sort of theif would ring the doorbell anyway?

It's not just ringing it that sets it off, it's a motion sensor too. In my experience, some thieves do actually ring or knock to see if there is an answer. If there is, they just play dumb and pretend to sell you something or pretend they have the wrong house. If no answer, then they do their thing. They may scout the house and yard out for any signs of security systems and dogs. They also may not always break a window or break down a door. They will try before they pry. Usually there's always a window or two somewhere on a house that will open because someone forgot to lock it when they closed it. I actually see these door bells as a great addition to any security system.

[Zusafek]

I have the Ring system on my house as well as an internal and external video system. I work out on the road so I'm not home everyday. It lets me keep an eye on my home while I'm away. For me it's great.

[EldritchMoose]

13 hours ago, Kisai said:

With that said, "if you have nothing to hide..." arguments for surveillance are pretty weaselly too.

Not to mention worthless - "Having nothing to hide" cannot be guaranteed because the people who decide what needs to be hidden can change their minds at a moment's notice.

7 hours ago, LinusTechTipsFanFromDarlo said:

What sort of theif would ring the doorbell anyway?

A smart one. Ringing the doorbell is a free, quick and non-suspicious way of determining whether or not the target house's residents are home. Either they're home and you can ask for directions, knowing that your attempt would have to wait, or they're not home and to any onlooker who saw you, all you did was ring the doorbell and walk off again. This can also give you an indication on whether or not a guard dog is present.

 

Note that this mainly works during daytime, when people might logically be at work. If you're planning a break-in during the night, I would imagine that ringing the doorbell would indeed be more of a hindrance.

[Fortekko]

9 hours ago, LinusTechTipsFanFromDarlo said:

 What sort of theif would ring the doorbell anyway? I'm no expert in robbing a house but surely you'd break in trough a window or at the very least smash the doors in.

There's already some good answers, but there's also the fact that Amazon and co are getting more and more popular. Since most package deliverers will leave stuff at your front door, its a good way to catch someone who's just trailing those trucks hoping for free loot. Sure, it directly protects entry into your home from your door, but its also good for other use cases.

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

A friendly reminder :

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6579739/Amazons-Ring-let-employees-watch-live-footage-customers-cameras-report-claims.html

 

• All footage from all video doorbells is/was stored unencrypted and Ring's engineers and employees have access to all of it.  Some even have access to live feeds if they want.
• All footage can be linked to the owner of that particular Ring security system, which provides a treasure trove of personally identifiable information.
• Footage can be manually reviewed by employees (to improve the algorithms, like they do with Siri, Alexa, and Google Home) but owners were never informed of that because it isn't mentioned in the ToS. 
  Then again if the employees have access for any purpose anyway, I'd think that a manual review for proper reasons should be the least of the owners' concerns.

 

• By the way, that ToS gives Ring Inc an ...

  Quote

  unlimited, irrevocable, fully paid and royalty-free, perpetual, worldwide right to re-use, distribute, store, delete, translate, copy, modify, display, sell, create derivative works from and otherwise exploit such Shared Content for any purpose and in any media formats in any media channels without compensation to you

  ... which basically means they can do whatever.  If you share anything with your community through Ring's "Neighbors" app, or if you provide footage to a law enforcement agency that asks for said footage, Ring Inc. can use that camera footage, including your own voice or face (or that of any of your visitors, who certainly didn't consent to any of that), in their ads if they want.  In fact they did use actual footage in their ads already.

 

• Ring uses law enforcement to push their hardware.  The deal sounds shady at best.

  Quote

  Amazon's home security company Ring has enlisted local police departments around the country to advertise its surveillance cameras in exchange for free Ring products and a “portal” that allows police to request footage from these cameras, a secret agreement obtained by Motherboard shows. The agreement also requires police to “keep the terms of this program confidential.”

   

  Dozens of police departments around the country have partnered with Ring, but until now, the exact terms of these partnerships have remained unknown. A signed memorandum of understanding between Ring and the police department of Lakeland, Florida, and emails obtained via a public records request, show that Ring is using local police as a de facto advertising firm. Police are contractually required to "Engage the Lakeland community with outreach efforts on the platform to encourage adoption of the platform/app.”

  (source : https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mb88za/amazon-requires-police-to-shill-surveillance-cameras-in-secret-agreement )

 

• Even the EFF called them out for creating a climate of fear to sell their products and calls Ring a "perfect storm of privacy threats".

  Quote

  By sending photos and alerts every time the camera detects motion or someone rings the doorbell, the app can create an illusion of a household under siege. It turns what seems like a perfectly safe neighborhood into a source of anxiety and fear.

  This raises the question: do you really need Ring, or have Amazon and the police misled you into thinking that you do?

  (source: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/08/amazons-ring-perfect-storm-privacy-threats )

 

 

 

As for abuses from law enforcement, there were reports of law enforcement having unlimited access whenever they want, without the need for a warrant. 

To my knowledge those haven't been verified so I'll not get into that too much.  I'd be surprised if they are doing that stuff by the book though. 

The EFF article does mention instances of possible abuse.  It also contains a lot of links to other troubling reports by other tech outlets.

 

EDIT : I came across this little gem buried in the ToS :

Quote

in addition to the license granted above, you give Ring the right, without any compensation or obligation to you, to access and use your Shared Content and related location information for the purposes of publicly sharing such recordings and information with current and future users and allowing those users to comment on the Shared Content. You also expressly consent and agree that Ring may share your Shared Content and related location information with any law enforcement agency that requests access to such Shared Content and related location information.
 

In addition to the rights granted above, you also acknowledge and agree that Ring may access, use, preserve and/or disclose your User Recordings and Shared Content to law enforcement authorities, government officials, and/or third parties, if legally required to do so or if we have a good faith belief that such access, use, preservation or disclosure is reasonably necessary to:

(a) comply with applicable law, regulation, legal process or reasonable governmental request;
(b) enforce these Terms, including investigation of any potential violation thereof;
(c) detect, prevent or otherwise address security, fraud or technical issues; or
(d) protect the rights, property or safety of Ring, its users, a third party, or the public as required or permitted by law.

Point (c) looks like a loophole so they can hand the data/footage over to law enforcement without the need for a warrant.    

 

 

 

Far be it from me to say who LMG should and should not partner with, but this is one company (Amazon in general, not just Ring) I try to avoid like the plague, just because of the amount of shadiness involved with almost everything they do.

I just hope that nobody here uses Ring products, and especially not as a result of sponsor spots in LTT videos.

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Captain Chaos
This rabbit hole goes deeper than I thought ...

[TempestCatto]

8 minutes ago, Captain Chaos said:

-snip-

@LinusTech You may have seen this already, or maybe you haven't. Well, now you have.

 

Would be interesting to see what the LMG team thinks now. With this info coming out will they rethink their sponsor spot here? The idea of a random person (forget that they're an employee of the company) can watch what I do in or out of my home is just creepy. I would not feel any safer with Ring than without, if this indeed is true.

[The_Prycer]

You know who isn't dissapointed by Ring?

 

Tunnelbear.

 

Browse the Internet privately with Tunnelbear today and use code LTT to save 15% off your first year.

 

But I'm sure Linus's bank account weeps over the money palace he's finishing constructing with the Ring endorsements.

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

On 9/28/2019 at 3:44 AM, TempestCatto said:

Would be interesting to see what the LMG team thinks now. With this info coming out will they rethink their sponsor spot here?

This info has been known a while.  The Daily Mail article at the top of my post is from January, which IIRC is way before they started advertising with LMG.  The whole thing with the app controversy and the police is from June-July.

[faketruth]

well, i doubt they will address this anyway - ive asked nick on reddit a month ago directly (but no reply yet as of this post) about if they are planning to at least address this to show their view and opinion about things surrounding ring doorbell itself. and they shouldve noticed about this if they do put some research into tech world to make some vids about tech - especially since it has started just like what captain chaos said in his post

 

but ppl doesnt seem to care much about the stuff surrounding the ring doorbell itself because they honestly dont care or otherwise dont really understand what is the impact from forming this surveillance system that is:

cheap to the police while disguised as safety net for the public and a good way for ring - owned by amazon to net profit while getting in the good side of the police.

 

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190924/19314443064/ring-considered-using-911-calls-to-trigger-automated-streaming-camera-footage-to-local-pds.shtml

 

this article from techdirt also gives a lot of shortcut into what is ring have been doiung, but well if ppl doesnt care and the ltt team also thought that ring is no "evil" at all then what can we do since it doesnt seem to be having any highlight at all and we are still seeing endorsement on their vids.

 

i remember that linus saying that the neighbor app wont force you to share the footage in on of the vid (cant remember which one - but pretty sure its among one of their early sponsorship vid with ring itself iirc), but no: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190807/20024842742/ring-is-teaching-cops-how-to-obtain-doorbell-camera-footage-without-warrant.shtml

 

and yes i made the account just to post, because im only lurking before this even if ive been watching ltt for a long time.

[kpluck]

On 9/27/2019 at 6:31 PM, Captain Chaos said:

A friendly reminder :

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6579739/Amazons-Ring-let-employees-watch-live-footage-customers-cameras-report-claims.html

 

 

From that article…

Quote

Amazon acquired Ring for $1 billion last February and, since then, it has put in place heightened security measures to prevent employees from accessing sensitive customer data. 

Quote

A Ring spokesperson told The Intercept that its employees only watch and annotate user videos shared through Neighbors, its community app.

 

But don't let the facts interfere with the point you are trying to make.

 

-ws

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

1 hour ago, kpluck said:

But don't let the facts interfere with the point you are trying to make.

 

From the article by The Intercept, which The Daily Mail links to :

Quote

The Information quoted former employees saying the standards have not always been in place, and indicated that efforts to more tightly control video were put in place by Amazon only this past May after Amazon visited the Ukraine office. Even then, The Information added, staffers in Ukraine worked around the controls.

 

Furthermore, Ring’s overview of its Neighbors system provides zero mention of image or facial recognition, and no warning that those who use the feature are opting in to have their homes watched by individuals in a Ukrainian R&D lab.

So the things you quoted were

a) PR damage control and

b) not even remotely effective at stopping the problem. 

The only positive thing about the whole situation is that Amazon at least seems to have tried a little.

 

Even if Amazon would have been successful at stopping this, that doesn't change the fact that it happened. 

And it also doesn't change that Ring under Amazon's ownership started something that I can only describe as bribing police departments to get them to advertise and sell Ring's products.  That is not the behavior of an honest company.

 

 

 

18 hours ago, faketruth said:

ive asked nick on reddit a month ago directly (but no reply yet as of this post)

You might have better luck getting in touch with him on here. 

Any input on this matter @nicklmg?  I'm surprised we haven't heard anything yet.  Normally the staff is rather quick at replying to such topics and taking appropriate actions (Synergy comes to mind), so I assume you simply hadn't noticed this topic yet. 

[Teddy07]

On 9/27/2019 at 4:34 AM, williamcll said:

Just DIY your own security with Rasberry Pi then.

My father has one of those and it is a nightmare.

[AngryBeaver]

A few things in this thread I want to comment on and since I'm in my phone quotes won't be with them.

 

The police only have access to your footage if you elect for it or took a promotion from them. There are still audio/video recording laws in place that protect you since this is not really a public place.

 

The person that quoted from their sit that lists all the things they are free to do with your data.... they still need permission to do that... that particular line is to let you know you will never be compensated for anything the video is used for (if you choose to allow it to be accessed publically).

 

Now the truth is that with most of these cloud surveillance systems you gain an extra layer of keeping that video safe, but also might sacrifice some potential privacy by doing so. It is a balance unfortunately. Doesn't mean it is a bad thing or a reason for concern. 

 

Now let me tell you another fun story. A coworker of mine got his door kicked in during the day and was robbed pretty bad. His neighbor on the other side of the street had a smart/camera doorbell and surveillance system (not sure if ring). The police had video of the people that robbed him and the plate information of the vehicle they used.

 

They were able to recover most of the stolen merchandise minus a few items and cash, they also found 3/4 guys and locked them up. The last one was actually a minor which they also located, but nothing really happened to him other than I think his parents had to pay a small sum to my co-worker and their kid got like 6 months probation.

 

Now NONE of that would have been possible if not for the cameras his neighbor had. The truth is nothing is going to stop someone that really wants in your house, but all of these devices offer a solid deterrence and make it much more appealing to just hit another house or neighborhood that is less protected.

[iKingRPG]

On 9/26/2019 at 9:34 PM, williamcll said:

Just DIY your own security with Rasberry Pi then.

r/HomeAssistant free and open source home automation platform, awesome works with almost everything. just look at what people have made its incredible