Speakers - Stereo Vs. Surround 5.1/7.1

[vogelspinnen]

15 hours ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

So if i'm used to an improperly placed 5.1, would i notice much difference (always in terms of tracking) with a stereo?

Assuming the same quality of speakers, a 5.1 will almost always sound better than stereo for games and movies. The immersion is something a stereo system physically can't acheive.

 

But of course, with the amount spent on a 5.1, you would probably be able to get a better set of 2.1 speakers which will sound better, albeit without the immersion of a 5.1.

 

I would say go for the best 2.1 you can reasonably afford, and if you really miss the immersion, you can always add speakers and tweak your setup for 5.1.

 

I personally just went 5.1 from stereo, and while i still listen to music on stereo, it's hard to go back to stereo for gaming/movies cos the immersion is just too damn good.

[Pixel5]

On 9/18/2019 at 11:19 PM, Oddvar Ashborn said:

Can't put the rear speakers behind me... still viable in your opinion?

if you cant put the rear speakers behind you you will have just about zero benefit from having surround speakers.

 

if you have problems with headsets thats another topic to take a look at because either you have only had very bad headsets or you should let you neck get checked out, having a few hundred grams of weight on your head should be barely noticeable.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

31 minutes ago, vogelspinnen said:

Assuming the same quality of speakers, a 5.1 will almost always sound better than stereo for games and movies. The immersion is something a stereo system physically can't acheive.

 

But of course, with the amount spent on a 5.1, you would probably be able to get a better set of 2.1 speakers which will sound better, albeit without the immersion of a 5.1.

 

I would say go for the best 2.1 you can reasonably afford, and if you really miss the immersion, you can always add speakers and tweak your setup for 5.1.

 

I personally just went 5.1 from stereo, and while i still listen to music on stereo, it's hard to go back to stereo for gaming/movies cos the immersion is just too damn good.

I used to have a Logitech Z506 (improperly placed as we established) so i don't even know if i would still feel the difference between that an stereo (might i track sounds with stereo as well?).

Should i go for stereo, i was thinking on buying the Edifier R1700Bt... Point is i wouldn't know how to add speakers (beside getting another couple of Edifier for a quadraphonic setup) nor how to tweak.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

5 minutes ago, Pixel5 said:

if you cant put the rear speakers behind you you will have just about zero benefit from having surround speakers.

 

if you have problems with headsets thats another topic to take a look at because either you have only had very bad headsets or you should let you neck get checked out, having a few hundred grams of weight on your head should be barely noticeable.

Not behind me but far left and far right (the rear ones i mean)... Still zero benefit? Couldn't i have subconsciously calibrated my brain to recognize "far left" as "behind on the left"?

I used to use a Razer Tiamat 7.1, so not exactly a crappy one i think. Neck apparentely looks fine, just a bit of cervical pain.

[NinJake]

Go with stereo. A good set of speakers won't leave you disappointed.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

1 hour ago, NinJake said:

Go with stereo. A good set of speakers won't leave you disappointed.

I'm sure i won't be disappointed about the quality, i'm just afraid about the tracking.

[vogelspinnen]

7 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

I'm sure i won't be disappointed about the quality, i'm just afraid about the tracking.

Tracking and immersion won't be as good as on a 5.1 setup, no matter what people say. But that doesn't mean it will suck too. Stereo tracking is pretty darn good, especially if you said you had bad positioning for the rear surrounds. If you really want to test it, why not just disconnect your rear surrounds and see if you like it?

 

As for adding speakers in the future, just get similar speakers to the ones you are using for the fronts, or at least the same brand, and plug those into your rear outputs. If you dont have one, you will need either a surround-capable soundcard or receiver. You can do without a center speaker, just use equalizer APO or a similar app to mix the center channels into your fronts.

 

In the end i think it all boils down to budget. The only disadvantage to surround is you having to buy 4 or 5 speakers instead of 2, which means you'll probably have to settle for something crappier.

 

Also, to get the benefits of rear surround you do not really need them directly behind you. About 100° - 110° is fine, i just bought some cheap monitor arms and mounted mine at a 110° angle behind my ear.

[vogelspinnen]

 

This is a photo of how i mount my rears, you can see that it can be done for almost any desk, so hopefully this helps you out!

 

And one more thing, you can even try using your current rears with your newly upgraded stereos, assuming you find a way to hook them up. The timbre will be different and it might sound off, but YMMV.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

10 minutes ago, vogelspinnen said:

Tracking and immersion won't be as good as on a 5.1 setup, no matter what people say. But that doesn't mean it will suck too. Stereo tracking is pretty darn good, especially if you said you had bad positioning for the rear surrounds. If you really want to test it, why not just disconnect your rear surrounds and see if you like it?

 

As for adding speakers in the future, just get similar speakers to the ones you are using for the fronts, or at least the same brand, and plug those into your rear outputs. If you dont have one, you will need either a surround-capable soundcard or receiver. You can do without a center speaker, just use equalizer APO or a similar app to mix the center channels into your fronts.

 

In the end i think it all boils down to budget. The only disadvantage to surround is you having to buy 4 or 5 speakers instead of 2, which means you'll probably have to settle for something crappier.

 

Also, to get the benefits of rear surround you do not really need them directly behind you. About 100° - 110° is fine, i just bought some cheap monitor arms and mounted mine at a 110° angle behind my ear.

Yes budget is kind of a problem, cause i'm building a new rig and i just went over 3K, so i'm pretty tight right now. That's also the problem of having a setup which might need more money for adding more speakers.

I might try disconnecting the rear ones tho, as you suggested.

6 minutes ago, vogelspinnen said:

 

This is a photo of how i mount my rears, you can see that it can be done for almost any desk, so hopefully this helps you out!

 

And one more thing, you can even try using your current rears with your newly upgraded stereos, assuming you find a way to hook them up. The timbre will be different and it might sound off, but YMMV.

I was thinking about going for monitor arms too! That's definetly something i'm gonna do in case i end up opting for a 5.1.

To hook my current rears up i'll have to connect them to my subwoofer and then from there to my PC. Would that be a problem? Cause i can't connect them directly to the mobo.

[Derkoli]

3 hours ago, vogelspinnen said:

Assuming the same quality of speakers, a 5.1 will almost always sound better than stereo for games and movies. The immersion is something a stereo system physically can't acheive.

 

But of course, with the amount spent on a 5.1, you would probably be able to get a better set of 2.1 speakers which will sound better, albeit without the immersion of a 5.1.

 

I would say go for the best 2.1 you can reasonably afford, and if you really miss the immersion, you can always add speakers and tweak your setup for 5.1.

 

I personally just went 5.1 from stereo, and while i still listen to music on stereo, it's hard to go back to stereo for gaming/movies cos the immersion is just too damn good.

I agree with this, 5.1/7.1/surround is amazing if done correctly, if not it's horrid.

[vogelspinnen]

1 hour ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

Yes budget is kind of a problem, cause i'm building a new rig and i just went over 3K, so i'm pretty tight right now. That's also the problem of having a setup which might need more money for adding more speakers.

I might try disconnecting the rear ones tho, as you suggested.

I was thinking about going for monitor arms too! That's definetly something i'm gonna do in case i end up opting for a 5.1.

To hook my current rears up i'll have to connect them to my subwoofer and then from there to my PC. Would that be a problem? Cause i can't connect them directly to the mobo.

If budget is a problem, then I'll suggest you go for a good set of stereos. You can always upgrade a 2.1 to a 5.1, but you can't upgrade a crappy 5.1 to a good sounding 5.1 short of changing it completely.

 

If you can't hook rears direct to your mobo, i guess you are running a single optical cable from pc to your Z506 then? If so then you can't reuse the Logitechs, which means that in the future should you want to go 5.1, you'll need a discrete 5.1 sound card like those from Creative or Asus or a receiver (Onkyo ones are pretty value-for-money).

[vogelspinnen]

39 minutes ago, Derkoli said:

I agree with this, 5.1/7.1/surround is amazing if done correctly, if not it's horrid.

Yeah, a badly setup surround is just a mish-mash of sounds with no clear definition.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

24 minutes ago, vogelspinnen said:

If budget is a problem, then I'll suggest you go for a good set of stereos. You can always upgrade a 2.1 to a 5.1, but you can't upgrade a crappy 5.1 to a good sounding 5.1 short of changing it completely.

 

If you can't hook rears direct to your mobo, i guess you are running a single optical cable from pc to your Z506 then? If so then you can't reuse the Logitechs, which means that in the future should you want to go 5.1, you'll need a discrete 5.1 sound card like those from Creative or Asus or a receiver (Onkyo ones are pretty value-for-money).

No, no optical cable, it's just that the speakers have another kind of cable that goes into the subwoofer, and then i can plug the subwoofer using the classic 3.5mm jack. (I won't be using the Z506, it's another one) Can it work?

Also i was thinking (don't know if it makes sense, i don't have extensive knowledge on this side) since there are 7.1 virtual surround headset, is it possibile to virtualize surround on stereo speakers?

[homeap5]

You don't have enough money for stereo. Buy any crappy 5.1 only for games and ignore quality of sound. For music you should have a lot higher budget for a decent stereo.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

7 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

You don't have enough money for stereo. Buy any crappy 5.1 only for games and ignore quality of sound. For music you should have a lot higher budget for a decent stereo.

An Edifier 1700Bt isn't decent? ._.

[homeap5]

1 hour ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

An Edifier 1700Bt isn't decent? ._.

For what? For sound in games? Sure, why not. But if you have place for multi speakers system, in games will be better (3d sound; and no, stereo don't give you the same effect).

 

But for listening music is way below minimum, at least for me. I have plan to buy new amplifier and speakers soon (stereo of course) and my budget is about 1800-2000 euros. My current set is worth now (used, on eBay) 400-500 euros. And that is minimum for good sound. And I'm not a sound freak - people can buy just amplifier for 5k euros. And I know that Edifiers, I recommend them for my friend as simple speakers for computer games (he doesn't care about 3d and have no space for 5.1 or 7.1). But he also has 1000 euros stereo set in second room for music.

 

Sorry, sound can be as expensive as graphics. Do you have GPU worth 150 euros? I don't think so.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

8 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

For what? For sound in games? Sure, why not. But if you have place for multi speakers system, in games will be better (3d sound; and no, stereo don't give you the same effect).

 

But for listening music is way below minimum, at least for me. I have plan to buy new amplifier and speakers soon (stereo of course) and my budget is about 1800-2000 euros. My current set is worth now (used, on eBay) 400-500 euros. And that is minimum for good sound. And I'm not a sound freak - people can buy just amplifier for 5k euros. And I know that Edifiers, I recommend them for my friend as simple speakers for computer games (he doesn't care about 3d and have no space for 5.1 or 7.1). But he also has 1000 euros stereo set in second room for music.

 

Sorry, sound can be as expensive as graphics. Do you have GPU worth 150 euros? I don't think so.

I have a feeling it's even more expensive than graphic actually. By the way i wasn't trying to undermine the importance of good audio by setting aside a smaller amount of money compared to other things. And i'm just tremendously confused, some people tell me "Stereo is fine, you won't loose that much tracking capability", others tell me the opposite! (Reddit people as well)

It's quite a challenge for someone not very in touch with these kinds of things >_>

[homeap5]

12 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

I have a feeling it's even more expensive than graphic actually. By the way i wasn't trying to undermine the importance of good audio by setting aside a smaller amount of money compared to other things. And i'm just tremendously confused, some people tell me "Stereo is fine, you won't loose that much tracking capability", others tell me the opposite! (Reddit people as well)

It's quite a challenge for someone not very in touch with these kinds of things >_>

Multi speakers system are great for sound positioning in games. Even if you can use stereo headphones to simulate 3d sound (better or worse), using stereo speakers for the same purpose is not the same - simply not working. Your ears can perfectly positioning where real speakers are.

 

Stereo systems are great for music. You don't really need all that additional speakers for it. If someone says that 5.1 or 7.1 systems give you more realistic sound, it's simply not true. I was on many gigs and band always was before me and never around me. If you go to the symphonic concert and try to enter the stage (I assume that you want to be center of everything), guards probably kick you out. So stereo is great reproduction of any live music where band is in front of you. Jokes aside - CDs are in stereo format, mp3/flac etc. too. Of course you can find multi speaker music on internet, but it's like 3D in TV - nice and interesting, but nobody really uses it.

[Oddvar Ashborn]

11 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

Multi speakers system are great for sound positioning in games. Even if you can use stereo headphones to simulate 3d sound (better or worse), using stereo speakers for the same purpose is not the same - simply not working.

 

Stereo systems are great for music. You don't really need all that additional speakers for it. If someone says that 5.1 or 7.1 systems give you more realistic sound, it's simply not true. I was on many gigs and band always was before me with their big speakers. If you go to the symphonic concert and try to enter the stage (I assume that you want to be center of everything), guards probably kick you out. So stereo is great reproduction of any live music where band is in front of you. Jokes aside - CDs are in stereo format, mp3/flac etc. too. Of course you can find multi speaker music on internet, but it's like 3D in TV - nice and interesting, but nobody really uses it.

Ok then, let me ask you this... What do you think of the Logitech Z906?

[homeap5]

37 minutes ago, Oddvar Ashborn said:

Ok then, let me ask you this... What do you think of the Logitech Z906?

Typical plastic speakers for gamers. A little more expensive, but still "plastic".

 

But really - if you have that budget, it's waste of money to buy speakers like that for games. Do you really care how "great" footsteps sounds in game? Or explosions? Or engine sound? It's only game, not music that you should listening with pleasure.

 

For price of that Logitech you can buy used big stereo speakers and some old, but quite good, used Yamaha amplifier (for example). Ok, you'll have no 3d sound like in Logitech case, but quality of sound will be MUCH better.

 

[Oddvar Ashborn]

15 minutes ago, homeap5 said:

Typical plastic speakers for gamers. A little more expensive, but still "plastic".

 

But really - if you have that budget, it's waste of money to buy speakers like that for games. Do you really care how "great" footsteps sounds in game? Or explosions? Or engine sound? It's only game, not music that you should listening with pleasure.

 

For price of that Logitech you can buy used big stereo speakers and some old, but quite good, used Yamaha amplifier (for example). Ok, you'll have no 3d sound like in Logitech case, but quality of sound will be MUCH better.

 

Honestly no i don't care about the QUALITY of footsteps and/or explosions, but i do care about the ability to track them to the right direction, since i often play competitive. That's why i really don't know what to do...

[vogelspinnen]

Hmmm from what i have read about what you want, i take back my original suggestion. Go for the Z906. It is easy to setup, has an amp, 5.1 decoder built-in, and is easier to place than typical bookshelf speakers. You'll avoid all the extra effort and cost that comes with trying to upgrade from a 2.1 to a 5.1, and tbh the Logitechs sound great for gaming. It wouldn't satisfy audiophiles, but for gaming it's much better than the plastic speakers of yesteryears.

 

A 2.1 will not track like a 5.1 no matter what, its just physics. Also your setup sounds weird.  A single 3.5mm will only carry a stereo signal, so if that is the only cable from your pc to subwoofer, you're not utilising all the other speakers!

[WWicket]

40 minutes ago, vogelspinnen said:

A 2.1 will not track like a 5.1 no matter what, its just physics. 

Well implemented and isolated (eg., good headphones) stereo sound will beat out 5.1 all day for spatial accuracy. Decent stereo speakers, correctly positioned, in a reasonably treated space, and running a game with good stereo support, will track on par with a 5.1 system while seated in the sweet spot.

[homeap5]

5 hours ago, WWicket said:

Decent stereo speakers, correctly positioned, in a reasonably treated space, and running a game with good stereo support, will track on par with a 5.1 system while seated in the sweet spot.

Is it your personal experience or just some theory? I was really tried find anything about that, but all I can found is 3d sound for headphones. If I good understand how spatial sound works, is possible only on speakers where real sound source is positioned close to your ears and rest is sound manipulation to fool you about virtual position of a sound. But speakers is something different - they're placed in real environment (your room), sound is received from specific place and that's it - you cannot fool your ears that much.

 

But I'll be happy if you prove me wrong.

[vogelspinnen]

5 hours ago, WWicket said:

Well implemented and isolated (eg., good headphones) stereo sound will beat out 5.1 all day for spatial accuracy. Decent stereo speakers, correctly positioned, in a reasonably treated space, and running a game with good stereo support, will track on par with a 5.1 system while seated in the sweet spot.

There's no denying that stereo can do a lot, but to say that it will beat a 5.1 in terms of spatial accuracy is just completely wrong. No amount of technological mumbo-jumbo and positioning can replicate speakers behind you, thats just plain physics.

 

Given any 2.1, you can make spatial accuracy better upgrading it to a 5.1. It's only whether it is worth it from a budget and effort standpoint.