Far Cry New Dawn Benchmark shows performance on Linux within 2% to 3% of performance on Windows

[SpaceGhostC2C]

14 hours ago, Kisai said:

Did you even read that page?

 

Did you?

Quote

In 2018, journalistic group Investigate Europe released a video documentary via German public television network ARD that claimed that the majority of city workers were satisfied with the operating system, with council members insinuating that the reversal was a personally motivated decision by lord mayor Dieter Reiter. Reiter denied that he had initiated the reversal in gratitude for Microsoft moving its German headquarters from Unterschleißheim back to Munich.

I would indeed argue that switching a business or bureaucracy, where the tasks to perform are limited and repetitive, is way easier than doing it with consumers, provided the functionality required exists in Linux (which will in most cases).

On the other hand, no matter how many power Linux users who do use the CLI for their purposes, and don't mind / prefer it, tell you that the "representative user" will have a smooth, 100% GUI-based experience, that is just not the case yet, and I'm afraid the "Linux community" will ensure it never is. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Crowbar said:

Yes, because copying text and pasting it into the terminal is so difficult. I forgot that windows newbs will make any excuse to cling to microshafts asshole at any expense because it’s still easier to be lazy then learn something despite very detailed idiot proof guides being readily available…

Calling names to people who don't switch to Linux won't change the fact that they don't switch to Linux.

Of course Microsoft's dominant position feeds into its persistently large user base, but persistent isn't the same as permanent, and many dominant positions have crumbled to pieces in the past. That's far from being the only reason why most people stick to Windows, though. I would argue that Windows has never opened up so much to being ditched as it is today since the introduction of Windows 95, but sadly no OS, and certainly no Linux distro, is in position to take advantage of that right now, and there are no signs of that changing any time soon.

Linux won't become dominant, or even massive, for consumers because it makes its current users happy(er). It will only happen if it manages to appeal those you insult, regardless of, and even at the expense of the satisfaction of those using it today. The "days of the Linux desktop" may as well be the days you start hating it.

[Crowbar]

12 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Calling names to people who don't switch to Linux won't change the fact that they don't switch to Linux.

Of course Microsoft's dominant position feeds into its persistently large user base, but persistent isn't the same as permanent, and many dominant positions have crumbled to pieces in the past. That's far from being the only reason why most people stick to Windows, though. I would argue that Windows has never opened up so much to being ditched as it is today since the introduction of Windows 95, but sadly no OS, and certainly no Linux distro, is in position to take advantage of that right now, and there are no signs of that changing any time soon.

Linux won't become dominant, or even massive, for consumers because it makes its current users happy(er). It will only happen if it manages to appeal those you insult, regardless of, and even at the expense of the satisfaction of those using it today. The "days of the Linux desktop" may as well be the days you start hating it.

I honestly don't care if the masses ever switch to Linux or not. What my purpose in this thread has been was to dismiss fallacies about distributions that utilize the kernal and point out the hypocricies/outdated narratives claimed by those regarding it.

 

I don't need my hand held to fix compatibility issues for niche applications. If looking up how to solve a problem online is a problem for you then stick to windows and pretend everything is okay. You deserve it.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

40 minutes ago, Crowbar said:

What my purpose in this thread has been was to dismiss fallacies about distributions that utilize the kernal and point out the hypocricies/outdated narratives claimed by those regarding it.

Dismiss you have indeed. Debunked? Not so much. Pontificating, as if your judgement mattered to anyone, doesn't do much for dispelling ideas, whether right or wrong.

 

Funny enough, you use and abuse a certain fallacy yourself, by continuously referring to Windows flaws, as if they had any bearing on what the Linux experience objectively is. Many of the points brought up are about Linux in itself, not about whether it's overall better or worse than Windows, as "overall better" is a matter of weighing pros and cons, and weights may vary widely across users.

Needless to say, discussing the people posing and argument, as opposed to the argument, is another huge fallacy... 

[Crowbar]

3 hours ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Dismiss you have indeed. Debunked? Not so much. Pontificating, as if your judgement mattered to anyone, doesn't do much for dispelling ideas, whether right or wrong.

 

Funny enough, you use and abuse a certain fallacy yourself, by continuously referring to Windows flaws, as if they had any bearing on what the Linux experience objectively is. Many of the points brought up are about Linux in itself, not about whether it's overall better or worse than Windows, as "overall better" is a matter of weighing pros and cons, and weights may vary widely across users.

Needless to say, discussing the people posing and argument, as opposed to the argument, is another huge fallacy... 

Dismissing pretentious nonsense founded on ignorance from 15 years ago that’s no longer accurate today is essentially the same thing but if playing word games is your idea of witty, I would disagree.

 

You clearly don’t understand the meaning of the word “objective”. As I’ve already stated, the complaints being used are not valid because the problem I referenced being cited as an example has an easy solution. Or do you too think pressing ctrl + c and ctrl + v is difficult? If that’s the case, it indicates a lot more about you as an individual then it does a Linux based operating system. This isn’t a case of apple claiming the user is “holding it wrong” so it’s not a problem. It’s very much a refusal of windows users to stray outside of the bubble they have been brainwashed to think is the only option from childhood and anything else is “far too difficult” and requires endless “noodling”.

 

Regarding examples of windows, it’s very much a case of pointing out the hypocrisy that takes place here. I thought that was clear but apparently not in your case...

[Derangel]

8 hours ago, Crowbar said:

I honestly don't care if the masses ever switch to Linux or not. What my purpose in this thread has been was to dismiss fallacies about distributions that utilize the kernal and point out the hypocricies/outdated narratives claimed by those regarding it.

 

I don't need my hand held to fix compatibility issues for niche applications. If looking up how to solve a problem online is a problem for you then stick to windows and pretend everything is okay. You deserve it.

And people like you are why the Linux community gets such a bad rap. Back in the day when people were championing Red Hat and Mandrake as the "go to" Windows replacements I ran into way too many jackholes with their heads stuffed too far up their own asses to actually offer anyone help on simple problems, choosing instead to act like you. So I said "fuck it" and didn't bother with Linux for years. I still have a bad impression of the community due to that attitude.

[cafe]

15 hours ago, ryao said:

I would not say that Windows is immune from needing fiddling. People fiddle with a bunch of settings (especially CFG) on Windows to try to fix stutter in recent games. Getting older games like Zoo Tycoon or Shattered Union working requires more fiddling than you need on Linux. They both need fiddling for various things.

 

There will always be things that one does better than another. Linux has achieved at least “good enough” status in a number of key gaming metrics though. However, the news that it only has a 2-3% performance hit in a recent AAA Windows game has put it beyond good enough territory into effectively the same performance territory in that metric. The difference for that game is like the difference between Intel and AMD for gaming.

 

Anyway, I would say otherwise as evidenced in the preceding paragraphs. Linux does not need to be better at being Windows than Windows to be a better option for many people.

nothing you said has anything to do with what i said

[Kisai]

13 hours ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

 

I would indeed argue that switching a business or bureaucracy, where the tasks to perform are limited and repetitive, is way easier than doing it with consumers, provided the functionality required exists in Linux (which will in most cases).

On the other hand, no matter how many power Linux users who do use the CLI for their purposes, and don't mind / prefer it, tell you that the "representative user" will have a smooth, 100% GUI-based experience, that is just not the case yet, and I'm afraid the "Linux community" will ensure it never is. 

 

 

If this was still 1995-2001 I'd argue that the Linux experience is as frustrating as the Windows one. The only thing keeping people on Windows 95/98/2K was MS Office in most of those cases because games either didn't work, didn't work well. It wasn't until XP, 7 and 10 that "gaming" on Windows leapfrogged it's previous position rather than made it worse. However Microsoft isn't without it's own short-sighted stupidity either.

 

There was never any reason not to backport DX9/10/11/12 to 2K/XP/Vista/7. Sure, I'll buy the fact that they changed the driver model (now we are on the "DCH" model in Win10 this year) probably breaks things with impunity, but there hasn't been a game that didn't work once the desktop compositor changed so the card was always running in 3D mode. Prior to that, games wanted 256 color mode, or 16-bit color mode and had to switch the entire desktop, even to go to full screen. Now we run into similar problems with HiDPI and HDR screens, but it's nowhere the absolute pain in the ass to run. If I run Adobe CS4 on Win10, the mouse cursor is broken on HiDPI screens. There is no way to fix it. 

 

Remember, people want to use the tools they are familiar with, so if you can't get consumers to switch to a Linux-based Desktop by first training them to use Open/Libre Office, then you're not going to get them to switch. Likewise, gaming is "viable" on Linux, but it's still a crapshoot if installing Linux on a whitebox PC will work, or render it completely bricked. We used to have a problem back in the Win95/98 day where you'd install Linux, and then have to re-install Win98 on the other partition and it would destroy the bootloader. Windows no longer does that (on purpose), and you can use Windows own boot manager to chain to linux, or vice versa (if Secure Boot is off at least.) But there was never any point to running a Linux Desktop unless the software was native. Simply running an emulation/recompilation layer doesn't actually make the software native on the platform, and can in fact screw things up worse due to the mixed nature of the UI language.

 

As for people who go "what, are you too lazy to (do thing with command line)", the most common user of a PC, or a Laptop is an office worker who doesn't run anything but Office, Word and Excel, and they may have to put up with some crappy cloud-based thing so they need a web browser that works with that software. 

 

Years ago, the place I worked for used Seibel7, It was a disaster, it destroyed productivity. It was barely a thin layer over the database it was loading the data from. But more importantly, the CRM software ONLY worked with MSIE because it used ActiveX nonsense. This is the kind of thing that prevents enterprise customers from switching. Likewise when I worked at another office once that one folded, they had a web-mail CRM program that only worked on MSIE. If you loaded it in Firefox, nada. I preferred the "native client" because it didn't take forever to do anything in it. That's my case example of why it's a mistake to switch to "web" and "cloud" based solutions over native ones. And that company is one you have all likely used at some point.

 

The point in bringing up arguments against Desktop Linux, is less about "Linux is not ready" and more of a "Until I can install a Windows application as easy on Linux as I can on Windows, without any manual tinkering, it will not be a thing."

 

Don't even get me into development on linux/windows is a mess.

[DaRk0]

Neat, however I still don't see myself switching to Linux due to productivity software.

[TechyBen]

13 hours ago, Crowbar said:

Dismissing pretentious nonsense founded on ignorance from 15 years ago that’s no longer accurate today is essentially the same thing but if playing word games is your idea of witty, I would disagree.

 

 

You clearly don’t understand the meaning of the word “objective”. As I’ve already stated, the complaints being used are not valid because the problem I referenced being cited as an example has an easy solution. Or do you too think pressing ctrl + c and ctrl + v is difficult? If that’s the case, it indicates a lot more about you as an individual then it does a Linux based operating system. This isn’t a case of apple claiming the user is “holding it wrong” so it’s not a problem. It’s very much a refusal of windows users to stray outside of the bubble they have been brainwashed to think is the only option from childhood and anything else is “far too difficult” and requires endless “noodling”.

 

 

Regarding examples of windows, it’s very much a case of pointing out the hypocrisy that takes place here. I thought that was clear but apparently not in your case...

Not really. The projectinism is really strong in this thread. Step back. Look at the situation. We have 2 products. Some problems overlap, some do not. Some choices are down right problematic. Some economically will not change (Ahem, Windows 10), some can, but attitude prevents it (Linux, and making apps feature complete with GUI vs just rolling them out with terminal... that option is not often used for Win apps, and the skinning of them so easy/common/standardised they all have it). But then again, I guess that is also economic (companies have no economic reason to port to linux).

 

It's like watching school children argue whos dad is best, the firefighter one or the police officer one.

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, TechyBen said:

It's like watching school children argue whos dad is best, the firefighter one or the police officer one.

My favorite analogy is:  This thread is like watching school kids argue over which dinosaur is the best.  The brontosaur is clearly better. 

[Crowbar]

21 hours ago, Derangel said:

And people like you are why the Linux community gets such a bad rap. Back in the day when people were championing Red Hat and Mandrake as the "go to" Windows replacements I ran into way too many jackholes with their heads stuffed too far up their own asses to actually offer anyone help on simple problems, choosing instead to act like you. So I said "fuck it" and didn't bother with Linux for years. I still have a bad impression of the community due to that attitude.

So pointing out windows users irrational fallacies and hypcrisies means I won't help someone with a Linux issue?

 

So "back in the day" is repesentitive of TODAY?

 

Yes, let's just ignore that there are several forums dedicated exclusively to Linux that openly provide help if you have done your homework first.

 

Let's also make generalizations that an entire community is bad simply because you are offended by a post by one individual that utilizes it despite being completely irrelevant to the issue you are complaining about. That's such a great sample size...

 

This entire post is exactly what I've been talking about. Excuses being made with no logical reasoning.

[Crowbar]

12 hours ago, Kisai said:

The point in bringing up arguments against Desktop Linux, is less about "Linux is not ready" and more of a "Until I can install a Windows application as easy on Linux as I can on Windows, without any manual tinkering, it will not be a thing."

You can though. UI based distributions just require you to click "next" just like on windows. So you're still stuck clinging to an outdated narrative as an excuse.

 

Command line is still an option but not a requirement unless you are doing something outside of basic packages which in your example of an "office worker" is not the case.

[Crowbar]

9 hours ago, DaRk0 said:

Neat, however I still don't see myself switching to Linux due to productivity software.

Like what?

 

I bet there are a dozen alternatives to everything you use on windows.

[Crowbar]

8 hours ago, TechyBen said:

Not really. The projectinism is really strong in this thread. Step back. Look at the situation. We have 2 products. Some problems overlap, some do not. Some choices are down right problematic. Some economically will not change (Ahem, Windows 10), some can, but attitude prevents it (Linux, and making apps feature complete with GUI vs just rolling them out with terminal... that option is not often used for Win apps, and the skinning of them so easy/common/standardised they all have it). But then again, I guess that is also economic (companies have no economic reason to port to linux).

 

It's like watching school children argue whos dad is best, the firefighter one or the police officer one.

See my post to Kisai.

[mr moose]

What happens if you install Ubuntu and try to plug your SD card in to copy over your photo's?   Nothing happens, you have to use the command line to install the appropriate exfat readers because they are proprietary and do not come included.    

 

Fortunately I know what I am doing and can use command line, but many average users do not, can not or will not learn it making Linux not an option for those who want to use it with SD cards.  

[Crowbar]

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

What happens if you install Ubuntu and try to plug your SD card in to copy over your photo's?   Nothing happens, you have to use the command line to install the appropriate exfat readers because they are proprietary and do not come included.    

 

Fortunately I know what I am doing and can use command line, but many average users do not, can not or will not learn it making Linux not an option for those who want to use it with SD cards.  

This is not a Linux problem.

 

Exfat is a microshaft proprietary file system and therefore is not part of the Linux kernal by default since it's a violation of one of the 4 freedoms guidelines to free software.

 

You can still use SD Cards perfectly with most stock distributions as long as you format the card with a modern open source file system first but instead you'd rather do it the windows way which will require more work.

[Derangel]

2 hours ago, Crowbar said:

So pointing out windows users irrational fallacies and hypcrisies means I won't help someone with a Linux issue?

 

So "back in the day" is repesentitive of TODAY?

 

Yes, let's just ignore that there are several forums dedicated exclusively to Linux that openly provide help if you have done your homework first.

 

Let's also make generalizations that an entire community is bad simply because you are offended by a post by one individual that utilizes it despite being completely irrelevant to the issue you are complaining about. That's such a great sample size...

 

This entire post is exactly what I've been talking about. Excuses being made with no logical reasoning.

Your attitude towards people in this thread means I compare you to those people. Don't like it, then don't have a shitty attitude.

 

As the saying goes "You only get one chance to make a first impression". Not that I've ever had much reason to change my mind on the community in the nearly 20 years since then.

[Crowbar]

4 hours ago, Derangel said:

Your attitude towards people in this thread means I compare you to those people. Don't like it, then don't have a shitty attitude.

 

As the saying goes "You only get one chance to make a first impression". Not that I've ever had much reason to change my mind on the community in the nearly 20 years since then.

And yet you still continue to make assumptions..........

 

I couldn't care less what you think about me. This isn't about me. it's about the lack of logical reasoning you are hiding behind for your excuses that haven't been valid for a decade.

 

I get it, you don't like me. That's fantastic. But what does that have to do with say the Level1 forum where I don't even have an account?

 

Also, are you going to answer the rest of my questions or continue to dodge them in ignorance?

 

"Bad guy on the internet hurt my feelings so therefore LINUX IS TERRIBLE OMG".

[Kisai]

4 hours ago, Crowbar said:

You can though. UI based distributions just require you to click "next" just like on windows. So you're still stuck clinging to an outdated narrative as an excuse.

 

Command line is still an option but not a requirement unless you are doing something outside of basic packages which in your example of an "office worker" is not the case.

Put your money where your mouth is and Install Office 19, Photoshop, or AutoCAD on Ubuntu or Mint without invoking Wine.

 

[Crowbar]

1 minute ago, Kisai said:

Put your money where your mouth is and Install Office 19, Photoshop, or AutoCAD on Ubuntu or Mint without invoking Wine.

 

Why would I need to when there are perfectly fine alternatives?

 

Libre Office, GIMP and Open Cascade all do everything your aformentioned programs do without the telemetry garbage or walled garden bullshit and even better are all 100% FOSS.

 

Your problem is that you'd rather complain and be exploited then look for an actual solution.

[Kisai]

52 minutes ago, Crowbar said:

Why would I need to when there are perfectly fine alternatives?

 

Libre Office, GIMP and Open Cascade all do everything your aformentioned programs do without the telemetry garbage or walled garden bullshit and even better are all 100% FOSS.

 

Your problem is that you'd rather complain and be exploited then look for an actual solution.

Try telling the Enterprise Office who's clients use MS Office, Adobe Suite, and several Autodesk software packages to "switch" to something that their clients don't use. You wanna lose that half billion dollar contract? I don't think so. The cost of using these software packages is a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of losing business because your company pinched the wrong pennies.

[JoostinOnline]

1 hour ago, Crowbar said:

Libre Office, GIMP and Open Cascade all do everything your aformentioned programs do without the telemetry garbage or walled garden bullshit and even better are all 100% FOSS.

1. They absolutely don't do everything that commercial versions do.
2. It's a nightmare to change programs when you work somewhere big. Even UI overhauls to what's essentially the same program can be a disaster for IT. I remember working at the IT department at a university when Office 2007 came up. It was awful trying to teach hundreds of employees to use the ribbon because Microsoft got rid of the menu bar.

 

On topic though, this is great news. But is it an outlier? I don't get the significance of New Dawn.

[jagdtigger]

4 hours ago, mr moose said:

Nothing happens, you have to use the command line synaptic to install the appropriate exfat readers because they are proprietary and do not come included.    

FIFY. All this outdated information is getting boring....

Edited October 7, 2019 by jagdtigger

[Crowbar]

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

Try telling the Enterprise Office who's clients use MS Office, Adobe Suite, and several Autodesk software packages to "switch" to something that their clients don't use. You wanna lose that half billion dollar contract? I don't think so. The cost of using these software packages is a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of losing business because your company pinched the wrong pennies.

Unless you are the CEO then you likely don’t have control over what operating system you are forced to use in a work environment anyway. You also didn’t specify that in your initial post so to me it looks like your now moving the goal posts in attempt to find any one off situation to justify what you said earlier.

 

There’s no reason why an individual can’t switch to Linux in 2019 though and if a company had started with Linux, it wouldn’t be difficult to have new recruits on it from day 1 with no more if not less issues then a windows machine.

[Crowbar]

1 hour ago, JoostinOnline said:

1. They absolutely don't do everything that commercial versions do.
2. It's a nightmare to change programs when you work somewhere big. Even UI overhauls to what's essentially the same program can be a disaster for IT. I remember working at the IT department at a university when Office 2007 came up. It was awful trying to teach hundreds of employees to use the ribbon because Microsoft got rid of the menu bar.

- Unless you provide examples relevant to what you actually do with them, this statement is meaningless.

 

- This is not specific to Linux though and you even provided an example to prove it. Refusal to adapt or just being plain technologically challanged isn't a Linux problem.