Far Cry New Dawn Benchmark shows performance on Linux within 2% to 3% of performance on Windows

[ryao]

9 minutes ago, mr moose said:

??  please read the thread again, you are now trying to argue that my arguments mean nothing because they are the same as the arguments you have made, apart from being just nonsensical, I have not made the same arguments.  I have not in any way said anything that resembles what you have claimed.

I first stated specific Windows issues that I have encountered that Microsoft needs to fix to show that Linux was more than an “alternative”. For a number of people, it is better.

Quote

 

It's very easy. I did, that's how I know what the percentage was in 2001.

 

No I am not, I am looking at IDC, Gartner and statcounter.  Why would you even make such a silly assumption?

I do not use those sources.

Quote

And I own a unicorn.  this discussion is just going from ridiculous to laughable.

You do not read anything that I link, do you?

 

https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

Quote

 You do realize that none of what you just posted there even makes ounce of difference to what has been said let alone address any of your previous claims.  If anything it looks like you are trying to explain some errors you made in quoting Wikipedia and misrepresenting the linux community in the process.

 

This is why I have such a low opinion of the Linux community, too busy trying to prove something to bother with being honest.

I am one of the developers working on making Linux more usable for people. You have been nitpicking without stating anything constructive. People at Microsoft would find my comments useful for making Windows better. I find your comments useless for making Linux better.

[mr moose]

48 minutes ago, ryao said:

You were fortunate with your Windows installation experience (although your user experience might not be as good as you suggest due to things like forced updates). Which Linux distribution did you use and what were the issues? Which hardware did you use?

 

Does it really irk you that people have a positive experience with windows to the point you have to tell them they were both fortunate to have a good experience? Not only that but to question whether they are being honest with the experience because of "forced updates".  Lots of people having nothing but a positive experience with windows.  Stop being so ignorant.

[ryao]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Does it really irk you that people have a positive experience with windows to the point you have to tell them they were both fortunate to have a good experience? Not only that but to question whether they are being honest with the experience because of "forced updates".  Lots of people having nothing but a positive experience with windows.  Stop being so ignorant.

I am not bothered, but I do think Windows users might be numb to the problems. For many of them, the problems do not exist until Microsoft fixes them. Then suddenly, a problem had existed. That is an observation of mine.

[Mihle]

33 minutes ago, ryao said:

You were fortunate with your Windows installation experience (although your user experience might not be as good as you suggest due to things like forced updates). Which Linux distribution did you use and what were the issues? Which hardware did you use?

 

My point in response to the assertion that Windows just works for people is that it does not work for everyone. If people were happy on Windows, we would not see it losing user share:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/12/13/microsofts-market-share-drops-from-97-to-20-in-just-over-a-decade/

 

IBM’s own comparisons with Mac OS X showed that there were issues (40% of users needed help on Windows vs 5% on Mac OS X).  My experiences helping people with Windows problems switch have shown Linux to be rather similar in reducing help requests. The average person is not doing much more than web browsing, email and word processing though. I imagine that is also true for IBM’s employees. For those things, there are better options. Linux does not need to be better in every way for every one to be one of those better options. Microsoft has done a good job of making Linux attractive just by the design direction it has taken with Windows. Windows’ forced updates alone are a selling point for Linux.

First time it was Ubuntu and second time it was Mint.

First time was some years ago but I did not manage to get it to run on anything else than Intel integrated graphics. I had 7970 GHz edition.

 

Second time was more recently, and it was more that stuff did require command like to set up and stuff, also some WiFi card issues. It's a Asus WiFi card. My brother had the same issues on Ubuntu recently and didn't bother with it and u installed it too. I did not get to even look at GPU stuff on there before I just gave up.

 

I do run Unraid on my NAS tho.

 

Forced updates on windows have never been a problem really for me.

If people have a problem that it happens when they don't want to is ALWAYS people that almost never turn off their computer. If they did turn it off once a day or every two days, that's when the update would happen. If you want to have it on all the time, change the time you usually don't use in the settings.

 

Also, don't know how many, but at least some of people that have had issues with updates on windows 10, and is tech interested, is people that have themselves made their computer update to a new version without their computer really wanting to. Microsoft do gradual rollout of updates for a reason.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, ryao said:

I first stated specific Windows issues that I have encountered that Microsoft needs to fix to show that Linux was more than an “alternative”. For a number of people, it is better.

I never said windows or Linux was better for anything, I simply said Linux had to offer a lot more if it wants any chance of capturing the desktop market.

1 minute ago, ryao said:

I do not use those sources.

You do not read anything that I link, do you?

So you don't deny that you know nothing about statistics.

1 minute ago, ryao said:

https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

Again, you use one source that gives nothing but a total and try to argue a causality and reasoning.

1 minute ago, ryao said:

I am one of the developers working on making Linux more usable for people. You have been nitpicking without stating anything constructive. People at Microsoft would find my comments useful for making Windows better. I find your comments useless for making Linux better.

Actually, you are just defending a proposition that was never made,  the claim i made was that Linux needs to offer a lot more before the average consumer will switch.  So far all you have done is piss and whinge about how good linux is and how shit windows is and not addressed a single reason I gave for my claims.

[ryao]

1 minute ago, Mihle said:

Second time was more recently, and it was more that stuff did require command like to set up and stuff, also some WiFi card issues. It's a Asus WiFi card. My brother had the same issues on Ubuntu recently and didn't bother with it and u installed it too. I did not get to even look at GPU stuff on there before I just gave up.

You have the misfortune of having a Broadcom WiFi NIC. Those have a long past filled with headaches. These days, you can usually get them working via the “additional driver” tools on Ubuntu:

 

https://itsfoss.com/install-additional-drivers-ubuntu/

 

I recall the last time I had to deal with a Ubuntu system with a Broadcom WiFi NIC, I had to plug-in wired ethernet and do updates to be able to get the driver, but it has been a while. Some reading suggests that they have it on the install media now.

[ryao]

15 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I never said windows or Linux was better for anything, I simply said Linux had to offer a lot more if it wants any chance of capturing the desktop market.

So you don't deny that you know nothing about statistics.

Again, you use one source that gives nothing but a total and try to argue a causality and reasoning.

Actually, you are just defending a proposition that was never made,  the claim i made was that Linux needs to offer a lot more before the average consumer will switch.  So far all you have done is piss and whinge about how good linux is and how shit windows is and not addressed a single reason I gave for my claims.

Linux does not need to offer much more than it does now for people to switch. The only thing keeping many of them on Windows is that it is preinstalled. Switch the default OS to Linux and most people will end up switching. The idea that we managed to get 2% market share without the benefit of preinstallations is amazing. The only thing keeping many from switching is having someone to walk them through the process when they are annoyed enough to make the transition given the lack of preinstallations.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, ryao said:

You have the misfortune of having a Broadcom WiFi NIC. Those have a long past filled with headaches. These days, you can usually get them working via the “additional driver” tools on Ubuntu:

 

https://itsfoss.com/install-additional-drivers-ubuntu/

 

I recall the last time I had to deal with a Ubuntu system with a Broadcom WiFi NIC, I had to plug-in wired ethernet and do updates to be able to get the driver, but it has been a while. Some reading suggests that they have it on the install media now.

Linux wasn't the problem, you bought the wrong hardware

[ryao]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Linux wasn't the problem, you bought the wrong hardware

That misrepresents what I said, but I think you could say the same about getting Windows 10 on a Raspberry Pi 4. It is not Windows’ fault that Broadcom refused to make drivers available, right? Broadcom did the same with Linux for *years*. The driver situation there is still far from ideal.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, ryao said:

Linux does not need to offer much more than it does now for people to switch. The only thing keeping many of them on Windows is that it is preinstalled. Switch the default OS to Linux and most people will end up switching. The idea that we managed to get 2% market share without the benefit of preinstallations  is amazing. The only thing keeping many from switching is having someone to walk them through the process when they are annoyed enough to make the transition.

Asus tried that, no one bought their products So they stopped, in fact ubuntu even tried it with phones and have had very little success.  People don't like change.  The only success outside of mac and windows is chromium and that is on the back of a very large chrome/android success.  Had android and chrome not been a thing Chromebooks would be a large failure too.

 

I think you will find that the biggest driver of that 2% for desktops is countries like china, russia, etc who have made Linux their official government OS so every government department runs that instead of windows.  For everyone else on the desktop world, until linux is more common it will always struggle to be relevant. 

 

 

[Mihle]

11 minutes ago, ryao said:

You have the misfortune of having a Broadcom WiFi NIC. Those have a long past filled with headaches. These days, you can usually get them working via the “additional driver” tools on Ubuntu:

 

https://itsfoss.com/install-additional-drivers-ubuntu/

 

I recall the last time I had to deal with a Ubuntu system with a Broadcom WiFi NIC, I had to plug-in wired ethernet and do updates to be able to get the driver, but it has been a while. Some reading suggests that they have it on the install media now.

Have zero issues with it in windows. Zero. Just put it in and it works perfectly.

[ryao]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Asus tried that, no one bought their products So they stopped, in fact ubuntu even tried it with phones and have had very little success.  People don't like change.  The only success outside of mac and windows is chromium and that is on the back of a very large chrome/android success.  Had android and chrome not been a thing Chromebooks would be a large failure too.

 

I think you will find that the biggest driver of that 2% for desktops is countries like china, russia, etc who have made Linux their official government OS so every government department runs that instead of windows.  For everyone else on the desktop world, until linux is more common it will always struggle to be relevant. 

 

 

With phones, Linux has a majority user share due to Android.

 

As for the 2%, Linux usage in the countries that you mention is almost non-existent. If you consider only English, Linux nearly has a 2% user share on Steam (apply Bayes theorem). It is only when you start including foreign languages (especially Chinese) that it’s user base drops below 1%. You should see a similar trend for the market in general.

[ryao]

11 minutes ago, Mihle said:

Have zero issues with it in windows. Zero. Just put it in and it works perfectly.

Broadcom has always focused on Windows support for that hardware. There was a time when that was the only thing that they seemed to support. That has resulted in a mess, although it usually is not that bad. Had you asked the community for help, they likely could have helped you get it working.

 

Broadcom’s unwillingness to support anything other than the OS that the vendor (their real customer) ships on a given piece of hardware is keeping Windows 10 off the Raspberry Pi 4:

 

https://github.com/WOA-Project/WOA-Deployer-Rpi/issues/41

 

The situation with using your Broadcom WiFi NIC with Linux on your laptop is *far* better than the situation with Windows 10 on the Raspberry Pi 4. Getting Linux working with the WiFi NIC on your laptop is likely doable with community support. Getting Windows 10 on the Raspberry Pi likely needs a team of engineers to spend months trying to figure it out.

[Blademaster91]

23 minutes ago, ryao said:

You have the misfortune of having a Broadcom WiFi NIC. Those have a long past filled with headaches. These days, you can usually get them working via the “additional driver” tools on Ubuntu:

 

https://itsfoss.com/install-additional-drivers-ubuntu/

 

I recall the last time I had to deal with a Ubuntu system with a Broadcom WiFi NIC, I had to plug-in wired ethernet and do updates to be able to get the driver, but it has been a while. Some reading suggests that they have it on the install media now.

But that is one of the key issues with Linux, something doesn't work and it's always "you have the wrong distro" or "you need to use different hardware". 

Most users, not just gamers as you claim, aren't going to deal with needing to either mess with several flavors of Linux until their hardware works, or go into a command line to fix things. For Linux to gain a significant share of users it needs to be user friendly as Windows 10 is. Windows works without issue for the most part, if it didn't Mac or Linux share would be much higher with how much Windows 10 is breaking according to people that totally switched away from Windows.

13 minutes ago, ryao said:

That misrepresents what I said, but I think you could say the same about getting Windows 10 on a Raspberry Pi 4. It is not Windows’ fault that Broadcom refused to make drivers available, right? Broadcom did the same with Linux for *years*. The driver situation there is still far from ideal.

It isn't Broadcom's fault for not making Linux drivers either though, with about 2-3% of Linux user share they don't have much incentive to pay someone to write drivers.

[ryao]

12 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

But that is one of the key issues with Linux, something doesn't work and it's always "you have the wrong distro" or "you need to use different hardware". 

I have not said either. He could likely use the distribution that he chose with that hardware. It just requires some additional setup. I have had to do the same sort of thing for Windows many times in the past.

 

Some well known examples would be SATA on Windows XP and NVMe on Windows 7. I had to install numerous drivers to get Windows 7 fully functional on my Supermicro X9SRL because they were not included on the install media. I also had BSODs if I installed the chipset drivers in the wrong point in the update process and I even had updates fail because Windows 7 cannot even install its own updates in the proper order anymore when using Windows update. His issue with a Broadcom NIC driver not being installed by default is minor in comparison.

 

On the other hand, the answer for anyone who wants to install Windows on the Raspberry Pi 4 is simply to get different hardware. This is because Broadcom refuses to support Windows on it, which is a humorous role reversal.

Quote

It isn't Broadcom's fault for not making Linux drivers either though.

They make them now, but they did not do much to clean up the mess that their years of refusing to play nice caused. They were uncooperative even to others willing to make the drivers for them.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, ryao said:

I have not said either. He could likely use the distribution he chose with that hardware. It just requires some additional setup. I have had to do the same sort of thing for Windows many times in the past.

"Additional setup" ?  how is that better for consumer who already don't like change? where is the incentive to change when you have to do extra work?

 

1 minute ago, ryao said:

They make them now, but they did not do much to clean up the mess that their years of refusing to play nice caused.

I am just flabbergasted by this statement.   This is why I have a very low opinion of the Linux community.  Whilst I am sure there are some very well informed members in there, this is the face I see the most. Blaming the consumer for not buying the right hardware then blaming the hardware vendor for not making them a special driver that works with every kernel update and distro etc.

[ryao]

18 minutes ago, mr moose said:

"Additional setup" ?  how is that better for consumer who already don't like change? where is the incentive to change when you have to do extra work?

Additional setup is also needed when the user decides to reinstall Windows due to installations getting hosed in many cases. It is not guaranteed that you can just install it and have things work as my experience has shown. I had to do several hours of additional setup to get Windows 7 working properly on hardware that Microsoft is supposed to support. Most of that was me waiting on the machine rather than trying to look up something up.

Quote

I am just flabbergasted by this statement.   This is why I have a very low opinion of the Linux community.  Whilst I am sure there are some very well informed members in there, this is the face I see the most. Blaming the consumer for not buying the right hardware then blaming the hardware vendor for not making them a special driver that works with every kernel update and distro etc.

First, I did not blame anyone for buying the wrong hardware. That is a strawman statement that you and another person made. Second, I will blame the vendor. If the vendors did not support Windows, you would not have Windows working well on much of anything, if it works at all. See the Raspberry Pi 4 for an example of what happens when vendor support is pulled from Windows. Linux has gone very far in cases where vendors did not support it. It goes further when they do.

 

By the way, I would like to install Windows 10 on the Raspberry Pi 4 to be able to try it out as that is convenient for me. Broadcom refuses to produce Windows drivers and I understand that Windows does not work at all on the Raspberry Pi 4 because of it. Would you say that I brought the wrong hardware? You do not seem to give Linux the same consideration that is given to Windows when there are issues, even though the issues on Linux tend to be far more minor.

 

Another version of this would be “what do you mean that I cannot run Windows 10 on a Samsung Galaxy phone because I brought the wrong hardware”. That is apparently the answer Windows users would give any time Windows does not work somewhere. It also seems to be the answer that they read when a Linux user says that some hardware needs additional setup despite all of the additional setup Windows needs when it is possible to run it on hardware despite it not always having everything it needs out of the box. Windows 7 not having an out of box driver for the 82579 NIC if I recall being one example.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, ryao said:

Additional setup is also needed when the user decides to reinstall Windows due to installations getting hosed in many cases. It is not a guaranteed just install it and be happy as my experience has shown. I had to do several hours of additional setup to get Windows 7 working properly on hardware that Microsoft is supposed to support. Most of that was me waiting on the machine rather than trying to look up something up.

9/10 there is no additional setup for windows.  I am sorry, have been doing this for 30 years now, you are conflating what is the exception to the rule with an on average regular occurrence. 

 

2 minutes ago, ryao said:

First, I did not blame anyone for buying the wrong hardware. Second, I will blame the vendor. If the vendors did not support Windows, you would not have Windows working well on much of anything, if it works at all. See the Raspberry Pi 4 for an example of what happens when vendor support is pulled from Windows. Linux has gone very far in cases where vendors did not support it. It goes further when they do.

you told them the problem was their hardware when it was actually a lack of drivers in the OS.    Like it or not but the reason why windows is so bloated and requires so many updates is because it has so much compatibility and legacy support.   Fact is desktop Linux is not big enough to warrant the attention of some hardware vendors, that makes it not the best option for people with that hardware.  It is not a reflection on linux it's just a horses for course issues. 

[ryao]

24 minutes ago, mr moose said:

9/10 there is no additional setup for windows.  I am sorry, have been doing this for 30 years now, you are conflating what is the exception to the rule with an on average regular occurrence. 

It has been a regular occurrence for me. It is one of the things from Windows that I do not miss. I would hope that they are better now that they switched to a rolling release model for Windows 10, but I am not touching that because the EULA is unacceptable to me.

 

Here is a run down of the additional setup that I needed to do for various devices on my recent Windows 7 install:

• NVMe driver
• NIC driver
• Chipset drivers
• Graphics drivers
• HTC Vive Drivers (from SteamVR)
• USB 3.0 drivers
• SAS drivers

That list does not include all of the rounds of system updates, the BSODs on boot that I got while trying to get the system updated if I did not install the chipset drivers at the right time and the failed updates from Windows’ inability to install updates in the right order. It was a nightmare compared to installing Linux. I could have installed Linux from source code in less time than it took me to get Windows 7 working.

Quote

you told them the problem was their hardware when it was actually a lack of drivers in the OS.    Like it or not but the reason why windows is so bloated and requires so many updates is because it has so much compatibility and legacy support.   Fact is desktop Linux is not big enough to warrant the attention of some hardware vendors, that makes it not the best option for people with that hardware.  It is not a reflection on linux it's just a horses for course issues. 

Would you quote that? I don’t recall saying that their hardware was to blame. I recall saying that they had Broadcom hardware that had long been problematic and that they could likely get it working by following the instructions that I linked.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, ryao said:

 

Would you quote that? I don’t recall saying that their hardware was to blame. I recall saying that they had Broadcom hardware that had long been problematic and that they could likely get it working by following the instructions that I linked.

 

1 hour ago, ryao said:

You have the misfortune of having a Broadcom WiFi NIC. Those have a long past filled with headaches. These days, you can usually get them working via the “additional driver” tools on Ubuntu:

 

He does not have the misfortune of having a broadcom wifi nic, he had the misfortune of trying to get Linux to use it.

 

You are literally claiming the problem lies with the nic and not the lack of support in Linux.

[ryao]

23 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

He does not have the misfortune of having a broadcom wifi nic, he had the misfortune of trying to get Linux to use it.

 

You are literally claiming the problem lies with the nic and not the lack of support in Linux.

Broadcom NICs are known to be buggy even with official drivers on any OS, so he is rather unfortunate to have one. See the following for an example of the headaches with those on Windows, although the issues usually are not this obvious:

 

https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Notebook-Hardware-and-Upgrade-Questions/Problems-with-Broadcom-BCM43142-802-11-bgn-Wi-Fi-Adapter/td-p/5236014

 

In terms of quality, Intel WiFi NICs come first, followed by Qualcomm, which get better over time. Broadcom is behind both of them. I didn’t mention it because it wasn’t relevant, but I had that partly in mind. His situation is doubly unfortunate because it requires additional setup. It is like how having NVMe with Windows 7 requires additional setup. You seem to be insistent at claiming that I said things that I did not.

 

By the way, recent Broadcom WiFi NICs are supported by Broadcom on Linux. Somewhat older wifi NICs need a proprietary driver (which is probably what affected him). Even older ones need a reverse engineered driver. The situation is a mess compared to the situation with Intel and Qualcomm.

[Jito463]

5 hours ago, ryao said:

He was thinking of replacing his laptop. I installed Linux for him (and gave him a SSD) and he felt like it was a new laptop. Battery life increased from 2 hours to 3.5 hours

Just for the record, the SSD is the majority of the reason it works better.  Installing an SSD with Windows 10 has much the same effect.  I'm not arguing whether Linux was or wasn't an improvement for him, merely pointing out that an SSD upgrade will make any computer run better, regardless of OS.

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

EDIT: just to add, how can you claim to have degree in statistics and yet not only completely misrepresent figures, but use them to prove a point they have no way to prove and source them from some of the poorest places?

Samuel Clemens said it best: There are lies, d_***** lies and statistics.

 

Personally, I add polls along with statistics.

3 hours ago, mr moose said:

Not only that but to question whether they are being honest with the experience because of "forced updates".

Speaking as a computer tech by trade, I've seen many people have to bring in their computers because Windows broke during an update.  Though to be fair, even with as many as we see come into our store, they're still a small percentage of the overall computer users around.

2 hours ago, ryao said:

Here is a run down of the additional setup that I needed to do for various devices on my recent Windows 7 install:

• NVMe driver
• NIC driver
• Chipset drivers
• Graphics drivers
• HTC Vive Drivers (from SteamVR)
• USB 3.0 drivers
• SAS drivers

You're complaining about additional setup for a now decade old OS?  Try taking a 10 year old Linux version, and tell me you wouldn't have the same issues.  And even then, it's entirely possible to incorporate those drivers into the Windows 7 install disc, so that the support exists from the get-go.

[xAcid9]

Dafuq is this thread turning into, calm your tiddies.   Everything you guys said is true.

I use both and i love both, i love MacOS too. They all have their ups and downs. 

[Jito463]

11 minutes ago, xAcid9 said:

(What) is this thread turning into

He _{^{(take your pick)}} started it!

[ryao]

1 hour ago, Jito463 said:

Just for the record, the SSD is the majority of the reason it works better.  Installing an SSD with Windows 10 has much the same effect.  I'm not arguing whether Linux was or wasn't an improvement for him, merely pointing out that an SSD upgrade will make any computer run better, regardless of OS.

The SSD does not explain the battery life improvement. I also gave him a ZFS rootfs that lets him power cycle the system with no ill effect, although I did not mention that.

Quote

Samuel Clemens said it best: There are lies, d_***** lies and statistics.

 

Personally, I add polls along with statistics.

Honestly, statistics is hard. That said, I think that there are many aspects of the picture that are not easy to follow.

Quote

Speaking as a computer tech by trade, I've seen many people have to bring in their computers because Windows broke during an update.  Though to be fair, even with as many as we see come into our store, they're still a small percentage of the overall computer users around.

You're complaining about additional setup for a now decade old OS?  Try taking a 10 year old Linux version, and tell me you wouldn't have the same issues.  And even then, it's entirely possible to incorporate those drivers into the Windows 7 install disc, so that the support exists from the get-go.

My point was that having to do extra work for a broadcom WiFi NIC on Linux is not the huge deal that it was made out to be. On Ubuntu, it should just be clicking through some menus.

 

As for the situation with my Windows 7 installation, it was complicated by the fact that I needed Windows to slipstream Windows drivers and updates. I was tempted to use a fresh up-updated install to do the slipstreaming before I found an update order that worked. It was the next thing that I would have done, but I found a way to get it to install and update without BSODing. In theory, it would have BSODed had I slipstreamed the chipset drivers alone.

 

As for using Windows 10, I lack a license for it. I also do not agree with the changes Microsoft made to the EULA on data collection in Windows 10. This is not a problem for Linux. You get licenses for Linux for free and there is no data collection.