Far Cry New Dawn Benchmark shows performance on Linux within 2% to 3% of performance on Windows

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, ryao said:

You said that Linux needed to offer more. My response is that it already does. It just is behind in terms of games because they are being released for Windows using proprietary APIs as part of vendor lock-in.

 

So what does that have to do with all this:

 

15 hours ago, ryao said:

Not having to deal with malware, antivirus slowdowns, fragmentation slowdowns, privacy issues, forced updates, system breaking updates, etcetera makes it more than an alternative to me. It is simply better in many ways. It’s support for various games is the main area where it is behind, but it is catching up. I originally gave up Windows games because of all of the other advantages. Now many Windows games are an option on Linux and it is great.

 

None of that in bold has anything to do with what I said and is subjective at best.  As a consumer I am not going to stop using something that works (even if it has the occasional bug from the factory) to learn a new OS because someone else thinks it's better.    And for the record I have been using Linux for the better part of a decade now, this isn't about how good Linux is or isn't, it's simply how the market works.  Linux is not currently positioned to be a real alternative in the general consumer market, a simple google search will give you a million and one opinion pieces on that, but we don't need all that to know that the most obvious reason is that consumers simply don't want to think and don't like change. An OS is a product there to serve them not a hobby to be learnt.

[suicidalfranco]

15 hours ago, Chunchunmaru_ said:

exception made for Nvidia

Unless you use an Ubuntu base distribution

 

https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/07/install-nvidia-driver-update-ubuntu-its

[ryao]

51 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

So what does that have to do with all this:

 

 

None of that in bold has anything to do with what I said and is subjective at best.  As a consumer I am not going to stop using something that works (even if it has the occasional bug from the factory) to learn a new OS because someone else thinks it's better.    And for the record I have been using Linux for the better part of a decade now, this isn't about how good Linux is or isn't, it's simply how the market works.  Linux is not currently positioned to be a real alternative in the general consumer market, a simple google search will give you a million and one opinion pieces on that, but we don't need all that to know that the most obvious reason is that consumers simply don't want to think and don't like change. An OS is a product there to serve them not a hobby to be learnt.

I know multiple people who have switched for those very things.

 

You seem to be forgetting that Windows itself fails to be “a product there to serve them not a hobby to be learnt”. I find using Windows to be nothing but one headache after another. If Windows were problem free, I would not have friends and relatives asking me to help them with it. After I give them Linux, I often stop getting help requests. It is rather similar to what IBM found when giving its employees Mac OS X systems:

 

https://9to5mac.com/2015/10/15/ibm-mac-support/

 

I took care of the installation process for them and made certain that everything just worked, so they did not have to deal with the installation hiccups that others noted here. Similar things can happen when installing Windows too due to missing drivers. Installing Windows 7 on my Ivy Bridge system the other day had numerous issues from missing drivers that I had to hunt down. The most annoying of which was not having support for a newer Intel NIC in the system.

[mr moose]

22 minutes ago, ryao said:

I know multiple people who have switched for those very things.

 

You seem to be forgetting that Windows itself fails to be “a product there to serve them not a hobby to be learnt”. I find using Windows to be nothing but one headache after another. If Windows were problem free, I would not have friends and relatives asking me to help them with it. After I give them Linux, I often stop getting help requests. It is rather similar to what IBM found when giving its employees Mac OS X systems:

 

https://9to5mac.com/2015/10/15/ibm-mac-support/

 

I took care of the installation process for them and made certain that everything just worked, so they did not have to deal with the installation hiccups that others noted here. Similar things can happen when installing Windows too due to missing drivers. Installing Windows 7 on my Ivy Bridge system the other day had numerous issues from missing drivers that I had to hunt down. The most annoying of which was not having support for a newer Intel NIC in the system.

I'm not forgetting anything.

 

 

This discussion has been done to death all around the internet.

[ryao]

2 hours ago, justpoet said:

3) I love linux, but saying linux is easy to use is laughable.  Even mainstream distros like Ubuntu are horrible in this regard.  Even something as simple as downloading and installing the folding@home client using the .deb package from their website broke the installer so no updates could install…not to the program…to the whole OS.  Want to use something like OpenCL on an AMD GPU?  Good luck.  How about finding compatibility information for a given bit of hardware…yeah, very rarely do any of the companies put linux compatible on the box anymore, and usually if it is something new, it isn't compatible at least for a while.  Then there's the "not in the distro" packages and repos that you have to find, and figure out which ones to get, and which ones you can and can't trust.  Don't get me wrong, linux is still awesome, and I run it on servers and the like often…but saying it is as easy to use as the two mainstream OSs, and therefor ready for everyone, is just not even close to being true.

 

Debian’s package management is easy to break. I use Gentoo where the packaging is more resilient (although it can be a headache in other ways), but I understand what you mean. I would not regard folding@home to be something a typical user installs, although you might be able to get the issues there fixed by reporting it to your distribution.

 

AMD has been trying to break into HPC with their hardware and OpenCL for years where Linux + Nvidia dominate, so headaches with their hardware and OpenCL are kind of their fault. There is currently a problem with Navi support not being available on most distributions. That is a problem that they manufactured by being late at providing people with what was needed to make it work. You might want to direct your complaints about AMD hardware support to AMD.

 

The process of finding software and trying to determine what is safe is far worse on Windows. People just ignore the problem there. If Linux makes you aware of it, then that is really an improvement.

 

As for hardware compatibility, there is the Debian HCL:

 

https://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/index.rhtmlx

 

Ubuntu also has certified hardware:

 

https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop

 

I generally just install Linux and tackle compatibility issues after the fact. I never need to do as much as I need to do with Windows, although I do not install Windows versions newer than 7 at this point and I only do it for comparing Windows and Linux. I both lack a license for Windows 10 and do not want to deal with all of the built in spyware. Neither are ever issues on Linux.

 

If I ever do want to know about compatibility (like for VFIO), I could just ask on forums, IRC or reddit. I have in the case of VFIO, which is a feature that Windows cannot use as far as I know.

[ryao]

32 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I'm not forgetting anything.

 

 

This discussion has been done to death all around the internet.

Yet Windows keeps being a headache. I cannot install it, tell it to install updates and be done with it. It must go through multiple cycles of reboots and updates, and it’s own updates will fail because it cannot install them in the correct order. Hunting for drivers for the dozen or so devices on my system that needed them was a pain too. I even had it BSOD repeatedly on me unless I managed to install Intel’s chipset drivers at the right point in the process of doing updates. This was on a fresh install of Windows 7 on hardware that Microsoft claims to support (Supermicro X9SRL).

 

The issues that people I know called me to fix for them before I gave them Linux are things that happened too. I once was called about a Windows 10 machine refusing to connect to WiFi after the network administrator changed the subnet. Ironically enough, doing a DHCP release and renew to fix it required going to the Windows command line.

 

I could go on.

[mr moose]

Just now, ryao said:

Yet Windows keeps being a headache. I cannot install it, tell it to install updates and be done with it. It must go through multiple cycles of reboots and updates, and it’s own updates will fail because it cannot install them in the correct order. Hunting for drivers for the dozen or so devices on my system that needed them was a pain too. I even had it BSOD repeatedly on me unless I managed to install Intel’s chipset drivers at the right point in the process of doing updates. This was on a fresh install of Windows 7 on hardware that Microsoft claims to support (Supermicro X9SRL).

Stop using it then?  What are you hoping to achieve with this thread?   You don't like windows, we get it, but that's not going to change how the consumer market works.  

[ryao]

14 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Stop using it then?  What are you hoping to achieve with this thread?   You don't like windows, we get it, but that's not going to change how the consumer market works.  

The thread was intended to inform others that Linux will be at near parity with Windows in one Windows native benchmark in the future, which is huge. You are the one who suggested that Windows was great and Linux would not be useful until it was more than an “alternative”. I replied to you to explain that things are not that way.

 

I and many others I know have stopped using Windows. At this point, Windows is in the minority in my circles as nearly all of us are fed up with it. I only reinstalled it recently for doing comparisons and it has been a lousy experience. Finding Windows software (e.g. YouTube VR and reportedly Zoo Tycoon which I did not bother trying given the reports) that was broken on Windows yet worked in Wine on Linux was a a shock. Windows is far from the problem free experience you suggest it to be. No OS is, but issues on Windows tend to be forgotten after being overcome rather than added to each person’s list of things wrong with Windows. I am one of the few people here who seems to have been noting these things (possibly because my Windows install explicitly exists for doing comparisons).

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, ryao said:

The thread was intended to inform others that Linux will be at near parity with Windows in one Windows native benchmark in the future, which is huge.

Then why does every post contain a whole paragraph of your claimed shit experiences with windows that has nothing to do with the gaming benchmarks in linux? 

 

May I ask, what has any of that to do with what I said?   How does your anecdotes relate to the observable nature of consumers both corporate and domestic?

 

 

 

[ryao]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Then why does every post contain a whole paragraph of your claimed shit experiences with windows that has nothing to do with the gaming benchmarks in linux? 

 

May I ask, what has any of that to do with what I said?   How does your anecdotes relate to the observable nature of consumers both corporate and domestic?

 

 

 

Go back and read your comments. They should show you why someone would reply that way.

 

Your anecdote remark could be applied to various remarks some people made about the experience on Linux too. As I said, no OS is perfect. Windows does have plenty of issues though. IBM’s own study revealed that. I have also experienced explicit bugs that Microsoft should be responsible for fixing, although they give most end users (myself included) no way of reporting them to it.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, ryao said:

Go back and read your comments. They should show you why someone would reply that way.

 

 

So here are my remarks on the subject:

On 9/14/2019 at 11:25 AM, mr moose said:

  It literally is going to have to be a turnkey package before people switch. 

 

 

On 9/14/2019 at 6:33 PM, mr moose said:

  but I still think it is going to have to offer more than just be an alternative before people actually make the move.

 

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

I don't know what the general industry thinks of linux and the idea of consumers moving to it.  As far as i am concerned like any product market,  until there is a need I just can't see it happening in a hurry.   No one likes change for the sake of change, in fact people are more likely to resist change.  The alternative has to provide people with something very desirable before it will be considered.  which means the it won't gain popular traction until well after that.

 

And that is before they work out how to make it as hardware generic as windows is without all the issues windows has.  Something I also can't see happening for a long time.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

 

So what does that have to do with all this:

 

 

None of that in bold has anything to do with what I said and is subjective at best.  As a consumer I am not going to stop using something that works (even if it has the occasional bug from the factory) to learn a new OS because someone else thinks it's better.    And for the record I have been using Linux for the better part of a decade now, this isn't about how good Linux is or isn't, it's simply how the market works.  Linux is not currently positioned to be a real alternative in the general consumer market, a simple google search will give you a million and one opinion pieces on that, but we don't need all that to know that the most obvious reason is that consumers simply don't want to think and don't like change. An OS is a product there to serve them not a hobby to be learnt.

 

 

It's like I have said the whole time along,  this isn't about which is better (something you keep trying to argue with anecdote), but about how the market works.  You can't assume your little vacuum chamber of Linux enthusiasts is any representation of the wider market place.  It just isn't how these things work. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, ryao said:

Your anecdote remark could be applied to various remarks some people made about the experience on Linux too. As I said, no OS is perfect. Windows does have plenty of issues though. IBM’s own study revealed that.

 

It does apply to every experience about an OS people are making in this thread.  Absolutely it does.  The issue is when you think that your experience trumps others or is a solid foundation for your ideals.   

 

When it comes to the whole windows/Linux debate the only thing that matters is what the consumer wants and what is available.  Windows has the market share for hundreds of reasons, but most importantly because only some of them are about compatibility/performance, those reasons are what will hold Linux back.  E.G Until Linux has enough market share to warrant being included in the school curriculum, then people are going to be coming out of school only knowing how to use windows, this will naturally maintain the windows market share.  So if you want Linux to become anything other than what it is today you are going to have to convince a major part of the consumer market to do what it doesn't like doing.   I.E learn a new OS, and that is on top of making sure that Linux can match or better windows in every department from the average consumers perspective otherwise what do you think will happen when they do learn it and find out it is just the same or worse? They'll bag the shit out of it and you can kiss any chance of Linux becoming more popular goodbye.

 

[ryao]

46 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

 

So here are my remarks on the subject:

 

 

 

 

 

It's like I have said the whole time along,  this isn't about which is better (something you keep trying to argue with anecdote), but about how the market works.  You can't assume your little vacuum chamber of Linux enthusiasts is any representation of the wider market place.  It just isn't how these things work. 

 

 

 

It does apply to every experience about an OS people are making in this thread.  Absolutely it does.  The issue is when you think that your experience trumps others or is a solid foundation for your ideals.   

 

When it comes to the whole windows/Linux debate the only thing that matters is what the consumer wants and what is available.  Windows has the market share for hundreds of reasons, but most importantly because only some of them are about compatibility/performance, those reasons are what will hold Linux back.  E.G Until Linux has enough market share to warrant being included in the school curriculum, then people are going to be coming out of school only knowing how to use windows, this will naturally maintain the windows market share.  So if you want Linux to become anything other than what it is today you are going to have to convince a major part of the consumer market to do what it doesn't like doing.   I.E learn a new OS, and that is on top of making sure that Linux can match or better windows in every department from the average consumers perspective otherwise what do you think will happen when they do learn it and find out it is just the same or worse? They'll bag the shit out of it and you can kiss any chance of Linux becoming more popular goodbye.

 

People I know are already switching. Windows itself is not a great experience for them. That is why people are switching. Windows’ userbase is already down to 87.5%:

 

https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx

 

I remember when it was 98%. Linux having >2% market share despite not coming preinstalled on most machines running it is also fairly huge.

 

Linux is already becoming more popular. It’s relative desktop userbase has increased 100x over the past 20 years. Linux could eclipse Windows and you could still make the same remarks. That is because popularity does not always reflect being problem free as Windows has shown us.

 

As for schools, my old high school switched to Raspberry Pi computers running Linux. Linux is increasingly popular in education thanks to the Raspberry Pi and various machines running ChromeOS. iPads are also chipping away at the user base there.

 

Wikipedia shows Linux as already being more popular than Windows:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

 

Android and ChromeOS are Linux systems. Windows’ main holdouts are in desktops and laptops where it is shipped preinstalled. PC gaming overwhelming favors it, but work is being done to eliminate the vendor lock-in strategy that has given it an edge there.

 

Interestingly, as far as computing devices are concerned, Microsoft is in third place behind Apple according to that.

 

As for things being better, you are the one who said that Linux needs to be more than an alternative. It largely is. The majority of worldwide computing device users are using Linux based systems. The desktop is basically the last place where Windows is holding on with PC gaming helping to keep it that way, yet the “alternatives” are chipping away at it.

[justpoet]

2 hours ago, ryao said:

Debian’s package management is easy to break. I use Gentoo where the packaging is more resilient (although it can be a headache in other ways), but I understand what you mean. I would not regard folding@home to be something a typical user installs, although you might be able to get the issues there fixed by reporting it to your distribution.

 

AMD has been trying to break into HPC with their hardware and OpenCL for years where Linux + Nvidia dominate, so headaches with their hardware and OpenCL are kind of their fault. There is currently a problem with Navi support not being available on most distributions. That is a problem that they manufactured by being late at providing people with what was needed to make it work. You might want to direct your complaints about AMD hardware support to AMD.

 

The process of finding software and trying to determine what is safe is far worse on Windows. People just ignore the problem there. If Linux makes you aware of it, then that is really an improvement.

 

As for hardware compatibility, there is the Debian HCL:

 

https://kmuto.jp/debian/hcl/index.rhtmlx

 

Ubuntu also has certified hardware:

 

https://certification.ubuntu.com/desktop

 

I generally just install Linux and tackle compatibility issues after the fact. I never need to do as much as I need to do with Windows, although I do not install Windows versions newer than 7 at this point and I only do it for comparing Windows and Linux. I both lack a license for Windows 10 and do not want to deal with all of the built in spyware. Neither are ever issues on Linux.

The issue isn't about folding@home, but the fact that a single download and install package can permanently break the installer until you go deep into debugging and text editing and then back things out in the command line after resolving various issues in text files and then refreshing the installer.  Saying deb is more fragile is fine…but it is still a big issue with major linux, as many/most are built on some form of debian at this point.

 

As for Navi support, you're completely spot on.  But that's definitely not the case for older cards and hardware (I don't have Navi).

 

Finding out if software is reasonable or not is actually quite a lot easier on Windows…as is finding it and being able to install it.  Websites with a click to download and install are FAR easier than finding and adding repos and then running commands to update them and then finally install what you want.  There's ZERO reason that should be considered easy, and ZERO reason it shouldn't be just as simple as a Windows or Mac download, even if what the download does is automatically add the repo, update it, and start the install.  That'd actually be cool and useful and make it easier to keep things updated…but that's not how most linux things work.

 

Unfortunately, Ubuntu stopped doing anything other than a few brand name full built computers that ship with ubuntu preinstalled for certification.  While that is helpful for somebody that wouldn't build their own computer, it isn't helpful to those who want to either build their computer or more importantly add on to their computer.

 

While it is certainly easy to think that most any optical disc or network card is likely to be linux compatible at this point, what with a common use in servers and HTPC, it isn't always the case…especially if you start getting into more things like pro audio interfaces or capture cards, etc.  While the HCL is nice, it states the main flaw of it up front.

 

Quote

 

The result does NOT guarantee your hardware works

This database only verifies the PCI devices at this time. X drivers, ISA, USB, IEEE1394 or any other devices are out of the focus.

 

 

Don't get me wrong.  I love linux.  But saying this stuff is easy to find or figure out is just plain wrong, and a major part of what makes the ecosystem of any given OS, making the OS easy to use or not.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, ryao said:

People I know are already switching. Windows itself is not a great experience for them.

Anecdotal, I know people who aren't.  that doesn't mean shit.  I also know people who are using only phones now and aren't even using a desktop.  It's still all aneecdotal and doesn't mean shit.

Quote

That is why people are switching. Windows’ userbase is already down to 87.5%:

 

https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx

 

I remember when it was 98%. Linux having >2% market share despite not coming preinstalled on most machines running it is also fairly huge.

When windows was 98%? it was at 93% in 2001.   It has literally dropped a whole 4% in 18 years which can easily be accounted for in mac sales and people moving to android and ipad tablets instead of desktops.   Linux has moved from 0.2% to what? 0.8%. So what?  what do you think all that means?  if you think people switching to android/chromium is a representation of something specific then you are going to have to qualify that. Because those figures don't say what you think they do.

 

Quote

Linux is already becoming more popular. It’s relative desktop userbase has increased 100x over the past 20 years. Linux could eclipse Windows and you could still make the same remarks. That is because popularity does not always reflect being problem free as Windows has shown us.

Yep, ignoring android its gone from 0.2 to 0.8%.  So what? again that doesn't mean what you think it does.

Quote

As for schools, my old high school switched to Raspberry Pi computers running Linux. Linux is increasingly popular in education thanks to the Raspberry Pi and various machines running ChromeOS. iPads are also chipping away at the user base there.

They don't teach people how to use office on a windows/mac PC.  Proof please.

 

Quote

Wikipedia shows Linux as already being more popular than Windows:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

 

Android and ChromeOS are Linux systems. Windows’ main holdouts are in desktops and laptops where it is shipped preinstalled. PC gaming overwhelming favors it, but work is being done to eliminate the vendor lock-in strategy that has given it an edge there.

 

What was that that just went past?  Oh yeah the goal posted you are moving.  We are talking about desktop computers not mobiles and tablets.  Unless you can play far cry on your smart phone then it isn't even in the realm of this thread.

EDIT: and don't forget that apart from misreading a wiki article that isn't always accurate, the other field relates to all devices that ship with any form of OS on it, like routers and switches and tv's etc.  Which is not relevant to this discussion by any stretch.

Quote

Interestingly, as far as computing devices are concerned, Microsoft is in third place behind Apple according to that.

 

As for things being better, you are the one who said that Linux needs to be more than an alternative. It largely is. The majority of worldwide computing device users are using Linux based systems. The desktop is basically the last place where Windows is holding on with PC gaming helping to keep it that way, yet the “alternatives” are chipping away at it.

I think you need to learn how statistics work and how to compare apples to apples.  If you want to discuss the growth of linux then fine, discuss away, but if you are going to stomp and carry on about which is better and then use the android mobile market share as some sort of evidence to support those claims then we are not discussing anything, we are just addressing why those correlations are meaningless at best and grossly misleading at worst. 

 

 

[vanished]

Wait am I understanding this correctly?  This game is actually only for Windows and is running on Linux using proton/wine, and is within 2-3% while doing that!?  If so that's actually a huge deal and really exciting.  It's also not at all clear from the title.  I just assumed this was comparing native to native and thought "What's the big deal?"

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Wait am I understanding this correctly?  This game is actually only for Windows and is running on Linux using proton/wine, and is within 2-3% while doing that!?  If so that's actually a huge deal and really exciting.  It's also not at all clear from the title.  I just assumed this was comparing native to native and thought "What's the big deal?"

It absolutely is good news, especially for enthusiasts who only game and don't want to buy or pirate windows.    I remember trying to play far cry (original) on linux using wine a few years back (even with a system that should have whipped the original) it was unplayable. 

[ryao]

25 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Wait am I understanding this correctly?  This game is actually only for Windows and is running on Linux using proton/wine, and is within 2-3% while doing that!?  If so that's actually a huge deal and really exciting.  It's also not at all clear from the title.  I just assumed this was comparing native to native and thought "What's the big deal?"

You are understanding it correctly.

[vanished]

29 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It absolutely is good news, especially for enthusiasts who only game and don't want to buy or pirate windows.    I remember trying to play far cry (original) on linux using wine a few years back (even with a system that should have whipped the original) it was unplayable. 

Yeah I remember the days when the hit from wine was (although this is a very rough estimate) equal to about 5 years of hardware advances, back 12 or so years ago.

[ryao]

2 hours ago, justpoet said:

The issue isn't about folding@home, but the fact that a single download and install package can permanently break the installer until you go deep into debugging and text editing and then back things out in the command line after resolving various issues in text files and then refreshing the installer.  Saying deb is more fragile is fine…but it is still a big issue with major linux, as many/most are built on some form of debian at this point.

Ubuntu is in the process of adopting ZFS rootfs support in its installer. At some point, it will hopefully support doing snapshots before updates to allow for easy rollback if something goes wrong. That seems to be the only hope that we have for avoiding this problem on Debian based distributions. You can actually do all of this yourself right now, but the installation process is manual via debootstrap and the snapshotting is somewhat manual (you can use an autosnapshot script).

Quote

As for Navi support, you're completely spot on.  But that's definitely not the case for older cards and hardware (I don't have Navi).

If you are installing a LTS version of a distribution, you can get fairly outdated graphics drivers on AMD. I think Ubuntu said that they would start shipping newer Nvidia drivers as updates, but with AMD on a LTS release, you are probably stuck with drivers for hardware from 1 to 2 years before the LTS release was made. It is a definite problem.

Quote

Finding out if software is reasonable or not is actually quite a lot easier on Windows…as is finding it and being able to install it.  Websites with a click to download and install are FAR easier than finding and adding repos and then running commands to update them and then finally install what you want.  There's ZERO reason that should be considered easy, and ZERO reason it shouldn't be just as simple as a Windows or Mac download, even if what the download does is automatically add the repo, update it, and start the install.  That'd actually be cool and useful and make it easier to keep things updated…but that's not how most linux things work.

Just downloading software from the internet that hasn’t been vetted and installing it has long been a source of security issues. The vetting process that occurs when it is added to a distribution is a way to avoid that. You can file bug reports to request that software be added to the distribution. That said, software availability is a problem (more so on Ubuntu in my experience than on Gentoo, which is my distribution of choice), but I find this preferable to the Wild West that we have on other platforms.

Quote

Unfortunately, Ubuntu stopped doing anything other than a few brand name full built computers that ship with ubuntu preinstalled for certification.  While that is helpful for somebody that wouldn't build their own computer, it isn't helpful to those who want to either build their computer or more importantly add on to their computer.

 

While it is certainly easy to think that most any optical disc or network card is likely to be linux compatible at this point, what with a common use in servers and HTPC, it isn't always the case…especially if you start getting into more things like pro audio interfaces or capture cards, etc.  While the HCL is nice, it states the main flaw of it up front.

Interestingly, I recently heard that this guy switched to Linux because compatibility was actually better with his audio equipment:

You can hear about it at 3 minutes and 22 seconds. Microsoft seems to be breaking this stuff on Windows 10, so the vendor claiming support does not actually mean that it works on the latest version of Windows 10. Linux rolling distributions don’t seem to have nearly as much breakage in my experience (Gentoo is a rolling distribution). Your results will vary, but this shows that using Windows does not guarantee a problem free experience with such equipment.

Quote

Don't get me wrong.  I love linux.  But saying this stuff is easy to find or figure out is just plain wrong, and a major part of what makes the ecosystem of any given OS, making the OS easy to use or not.

I ended up switching from Windows 7 to Gentoo Linux and later became one of the developers, so I will admit that it is probably easier for me than for most. However, for the average joe users that I know, Linux was easy for them to adopt after I set it up for them. I just did the install (I typically give them Ubuntu or Sabayon), took care of any driver issues that occurred, showed them how to do their daily tasks and that was it.

 

My cousin in particular was happier with Linux than he was with Windows. He was thinking of replacing his laptop. I installed Linux for him (and gave him a SSD) and he felt like it was a new laptop. Battery life increased from 2 hours to 3.5 hours (still bad, but better) and everything just worked well for him. For people who just do web browsing, email, word processing and some games (particularly, those compatible with Proton), Linux can be simple and easy to use. Without forced updates, antivirus slow downs, disk fragmentation slow downs, etcetera, it can be a much more pleasant experience too.

[ryao]

17 minutes ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

Yeah I remember the days when the hit from wine was (although this is a very rough estimate) equal to about 5 years of hardware advances, back 12 or so years ago.

I recall that getting 50% of Windows performance was considered good 2 years ago. DXVK and Proton have made huge strides here in improving things.

 

Also, I remember A Hat in Time seeing frame rates more than doubled with wine-pba less than a year ago. Playing it with D9VK shows me a similar improvement beyond that and brings it to slightly above native Windows performance unless D9VK is used on Windows (which puts Windows ahead again). Here are some numbers that I obtained from my GeForce GTX 1070 when having Hat Girl bounce on the cheese burger in the space ship while looking at the room:

 

Windows 7 Native: ~150 FPS

Proton 4.11-2 with D9VK: ~160 FPS

Windows 7 D9VK: ~170 FPS

 

The driver versions were 430.40 on Linux and 431.60 on Windows. Windows 7 is known to outperform Windows 10 in Direct3D 9 games, so the Windows numbers would probably be worse if the comparison were done on Windows 10. Unfortunately, people are not finding other games on Nvidia hardware to have this level of performance  relative to Windows (although the situation changes on AMD hardware), but this is likely a sign of things to come.

[WereCatf]

8 minutes ago, ryao said:

Ubuntu is in the process of adopting ZFS rootfs support in its installer. At some point, it will hopefully support doing snapshots before updates to allow for easy rollback if something goes wrong. That seems to be the only hope that we have for avoiding this problem on Debian based distributions. You can actually do all of this yourself right now, but the installation process is manual via debootstrap and the snapshotting is somewhat manual (you can use an autosnapshot script)

I dunno about ZFS, but if you're using Btrfs, all you need to do is to install apt-btrfs-snapshot and it'll automatically take a snapshot any time you install something. No idea if there's any clean, user-friendly way of rolling back, though, since I haven't needed to explore that avenue yet (yes, I know how to do it from CLI myself, but that's not user-friendly)

 

apt-btrfs-snapshot doesn't seem to clean up its old snapshots automatically, though. I had to setup a cron-job to do that (which isn't user-friendly, either)

[Mihle]

@ryao I personally have had zero issues with windows, and it had just be install and done. (Install GPU drivers only) 

 

The two times I have tried to install Linux, I have run in to issues or had to do multiple command line stuff. 

[ryao]

41 minutes ago, Mihle said:

@ryao I personally have had zero issues with windows, and it had just be install and done. (Install GPU drivers only) 

 

The two times I have tried to install Linux, I have run in to issues or had to do multiple command line stuff. 

You were fortunate with your Windows installation experience (although your user experience might not be as good as you suggest due to things like forced updates). Which Linux distribution did you use and what were the issues? Which hardware did you use?

 

My point in response to the assertion that Windows just works for people is that it does not work for everyone. I have been called for help by just about every Windows user I know in person for help because it is not just working for them. If people were happy on Windows, we would not see it losing user share:

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/12/13/microsofts-market-share-drops-from-97-to-20-in-just-over-a-decade/

 

IBM’s own comparisons with Mac OS X showed that there were issues (40% of users needed help on Windows vs 5% on Mac OS X).  My experiences helping people with Windows problems switch have shown Linux to be rather similar in reducing help requests. The average person is not doing much more than web browsing, email and word processing though. I imagine that is also true for IBM’s employees. For those things, there are better options. Linux does not need to be better in every way for every one to be one of those better options. Microsoft has done a good job of making Linux attractive just by the design direction it has taken with Windows. Windows’ forced updates alone are a selling point for Linux.

[ryao]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

Anecdotal, I know people who aren't.  that doesn't mean shit.  I also know people who are using only phones now and aren't even using a desktop.  It's still all aneecdotal and doesn't mean shit.

You miss the point that everything you said about Linux basically is dismissible by this exact logic that you put forward. That is why I stated examples of problems that Windows has. Also, when I stated examples, I stated actionable items that Microsoft could fix, as opposed to the vague things that you said. Unlike others who posted, you did not state a single actionable item for Linux.

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When windows was 98%? it was at 93% in 2001.   It has literally dropped a whole 4% in 18 years which can easily be accounted for in mac sales and people moving to android and ipad tablets instead of desktops.   Linux has moved from 0.2% to what? 0.8%. So what?  what do you think all that means?  if you think people switching to android/chromium is a representation of something specific then you are going to have to qualify that. Because those figures don't say what you think they do.

I recall Internet market share based on user agents showing it at 98% back then. It is hard to find the old numbers on the present internet though.

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Yep, ignoring android its gone from 0.2 to 0.8%.  So what? again that doesn't mean what you think it does.

They don't teach people how to use office on a windows/mac PC.  Proof please.

You are looking at steam statistics rather than for the general population. Statistics for web usage show 2.14% for traditional distributions and 2.50% if you include ChromeOS.

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What was that that just went past?  Oh yeah the goal posted you are moving.  We are talking about desktop computers not mobiles and tablets.  Unless you can play far cry on your smart phone then it isn't even in the realm of this thread.

EDIT: and don't forget that apart from misreading a wiki article that isn't always accurate, the other field relates to all devices that ship with any form of OS on it, like routers and switches and tv's etc.  Which is not relevant to this discussion by any stretch.

I think you need to learn how statistics work and how to compare apples to apples.  If you want to discuss the growth of linux then fine, discuss away, but if you are going to stomp and carry on about which is better and then use the android mobile market share as some sort of evidence to support those claims then we are not discussing anything, we are just addressing why those correlations are meaningless at best and grossly misleading at worst.

Coincidentally, I have a degree in statistics. I am also a Linux distribution developer. Recently, I have put time into contributing to the community effort to eliminate the need to use Windows.

 

There is plenty to keep in perspective here. While the “*nix” community is gradually chipping away at Windows desktop market share, desktop market share itself is a smaller portion of the larger computing device market. This does not include routers. Windows is being kept going in large part by its grip on PC gaming via vendor lock-in, but we are making progress there too. The news on Far Cry New Dawn performance being almost at parity with Windows is an example of that.

 

It should also be said that PC gaming is a subset of the desktop market, much like how the desktop market is a subset of the computing device market. I am not sure if that is clear here given the confusion over what different statistics mean.

[mr moose]

18 minutes ago, ryao said:

You miss the point that everything you said about Linux basically is dismissible by this exact logic that you put forward. That is why I stated examples. Also, when I stated examples, I stated actionable items that Microsoft could fix, as opposed to the vague things that you said.

??  please read the thread again, you are now trying to argue that my arguments mean nothing because they are the same as the arguments you have made, apart from being just nonsensical, I have not made the same arguments.  I have not in any way said anything that resembles what you have claimed.

 

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I recall Internet market share based on user agents showing it at 98% back then. It is hard to find the old numbers on the present internet though.

It's very easy. I did, that's how I know what the percentage was in 2001.

 

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You are looking at steam statistics.

No I am not, I am looking at IDC, Gartner and statcounter.  Why would you even make such a silly assumption?

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Statistics for web usage show 2.14% for traditional distributions and 2.50% if you include ChromeOS.

Coincidentally, I have a degree in statistics.

And I own a unicorn.  this discussion is just going from ridiculous to laughable.

 

EDIT: just to add, how can you claim to have degree in statistics and yet not only completely misrepresent figures, but use them to prove a point they have no way to prove and source them from some of the poorest places?

 

You don't have a degree, you have an idealistic and primitive view of the world and are struggling to back that up with evidence so you change the argument and pretend everyone else has no idea.

 

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I am also a Linux distribution developer and I am part of the community effort to eliminate the need to use Windows. There is plenty to keep in perspective here. While the community is gradually chipping away at Windows desktop market share, desktop market share itself is a smaller portion of the larger computing device market. This does not include routers. Windows is being kept going in large part by its grip on gaming via vendor lock-in, but we are making progress there too. The news on Far Cry New Dawn performance being almost at parity with Windows is an example of that.

 You do realize that none of what you just posted there even makes ounce of difference to what has been said let alone address any of your previous claims.  If anything it looks like you are trying to explain some errors you made in quoting Wikipedia and misrepresenting the linux community in the process.

 

This is why I have such a low opinion of the Linux community, too busy trying to prove something to bother with being honest.