Why US college and university are so expensive?

[spartaman64]

22 hours ago, toobladink said:

Your interest in computer science puts you in a very unique position that you cannot get with other jobs. With most engineering jobs, employers love a certification, and sometimes it's literally required; other jobs require schooling or strong connections, if you are looking at going into marketing or some sort of management job. 99% of the time, those jobs require schooling.

 

However, with computer science, all the resources you need are out there, and are usually free. Stackoverflow is arguably one of the most powerful websites for any programmer.

 

Start small - watch some youtube videos on basic programming principals and tutorials. C++, python, or java are widely used languages to learn, and then perhaps expand to C#, php, HTML, or whatever you'd like, just so you can get a little extra experience. Start by making a game of battleship in the console. Allow a user to randomly place their ships across the board, and work your way up to developing a game with some sort of graphics, a website, or some sort of program that does something useful for you. Show these projects - build a github, put these on your resume, have your resume be hosted on a website you made yourself, etc.

 

If you're unsure about your genuine interest in programming (many people say they are, but get scared), I suggest watching computerphile videos on youtube. If you can watch 100 of those in like a month, I'd say it's definitely the field for you.

its amazing how much "programming" you can do by just copy and pasting code from stackoverflow. i "made" a discord bot with no previous knowledge of javascript with code just from stackoverflow and i just had to figure out a rudimentary understanding of how javascript worked. just to clarify im not saying you can work as a programmer this way im saying if someone with almost no understanding of the language and just some high school classes in python and java can make something then someone who knows what they are doing can achieve even better results

[spartaman64]

you can get some pretty decent scholarships with even pretty average grades. i had like a 2.7 GPA in high school and st xavier university offered me a 10,000 dollar scholarship 

and if you look at the university of chicago the tuition looks insane 74,000 dollars a year but the average student gets 39,000 in grants and scholarships and low income students can get over 67,000

[JZStudios]

13 minutes ago, Yeroh said:

I can only partly agree. While there are downsides to tax-funded healthcare, when compared to the USA, cost for healthcare (and education) over here is miniscule. We don't have people who are afraid to call an ambulance or go to the ER because they're afraid of the cost that might be associated with such immediate treatment.

Yeah, but again the question comes down to how much tax money is being required. I keep telling this "story" but recently had an accident and had to go to a hospital.

1. I went to the ER and was in and out in under 2 hours with medicine and an appointment a few days later with a specialist.
2. I ended up needing surgery and the hospital wanted something like $10k to use an empty room. The actual doctor asked for something closer to $2000, which in my opinion is pretty damn fair. For the doctor, not the hospital.

Anyways, 10k was potentially feasible but since I'd be out of work I decided to go for the states welfare system, whose limits are INCREDIBLY low. "Luckily" I hadn't actually been paid at work in over 6 months, hooray for family businesses and asshole customers.

When I got the actual bill for the hospital, they were asking for nearly $40K. To use an empty room at the end of the day. Naturally I shit my pants and then found out that I had actually made it onto the welfare system. So it's nice to know that just having insurance or welfare raised the price by $30k.

 

That's my issue with government funded hospitals, who sets the prices and makes sure it doesn't cost $4000 for jello? The doctors in America are also typically better than elsewhere.

[DrMacintosh]

We provide free public education in the US all the way up to High School. It has arbitrarily been decided that College would be the cutoff point. These Universities are not schools, they are businesses. Their sub-businesses (of which there are many) are tax exempt and infuriatingly profitable. 

 

Legislation to remove the business aspect of College and make it more like High School, where everything is focused on the students, not building a rock climbing wall, is one of the measures needed to make College more affordable. In addition to that, public universities should be made tuition free only after these "Colleges" have been significantly gutted of their profit driven business model by the Federal Government. That way our tax dollars are not subsidizing rich Elites any more than we have to. 

 

Oh, and cancel all student loan debt. 

[Drak3]

30 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

It has arbitrarily been decided that College would be the cutoff point. 

Nothing arbitrary about it. College has never been a necessity to participate in society. It has always been an investment for those willing to do extra work to further themselves.

 

32 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

and cancel all student loan debt. 

No. Those are voluntarily taken, and those that made the choice are rightfully recieving the consequences.

[spartaman64]

55 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Nothing arbitrary about it. College has never been a necessity to participate in society. It has always been an investment for those willing to do extra work to further themselves.

 

No. Those are voluntarily taken, and those that made the choice are rightfully recieving the consequences.

i just think that the government shouldnt profit off of that program as that was never the intention 

[Sauron]

Because, unlike the rest of the civilized world, the US thinks that overfunding the military is a more important endeavor than education. Among other, similarly stupid reasons.

On 8/13/2019 at 7:32 PM, JZStudios said:

It's not a problem to pay for your own education or healthcare, it's all the government interference that massively inflates the costs and slows down the entire process.

Except this isn't the case in any other first world country. I bet what you said sounds intuitively true to you but I'd love to see you back it up with some evidence.

On 8/13/2019 at 7:32 PM, JZStudios said:

there's a few doctors that have cut out insurance companies and just do direct cash payments. You get better healthcare quicker and cheaper than going through the government and insurance.

Ah, yes, a few isolated cases are definitely indicative of what would happen at a national scale. Furthermore, just because removing the bureaucracy lets those doctors spare some money in the existing broken system doesn't mean it's the best solution (and there is ample proof that socialized healthcare can be much better across the board).

On 8/13/2019 at 7:30 PM, Mira Yurizaki said:

college is still is as expensive as you want it to be.

It could (and should) be free.

On 8/13/2019 at 2:20 PM, Openair said:

A good education cannot be cheap, it can be obtained in Africa or Russia for 50 cents, and it will not be appreciated anywhere. And America is the world's economic engine

Is that why countries like Germany and Denmark, despite having a higher quality of education, have fully state sponsored universities while in the US higher education costs an average of $20k per year and student debt is in the trillions?

On 8/13/2019 at 4:30 AM, OlympicAssEater said:

Why the fuck US college and university are so fucking expensive. I am currently in community college working on my AA degree to transfer to a big college or university, but I don't think I will make it because I have bad finance, and I have to pay out of pocket for tuition. I don't want to sign $45k+ student loan if I can't get a good paying job. Working at Best Buy where they pay $16/h is barely enough get me going in college. My degree is Computer Science focus on cyber security and programming. 

Honestly, just migrate to Europe, get your degree, and if you still want to live in the US migrate back. It's significantly cheaper.

[dalekphalm]

14 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Because, unlike the rest of the civilized world, the US thinks that overfunding the military is a more important endeavor than education. Among other, similarly stupid reasons.

The funny thing is that per capita, the US spends wayyyyyy more on Healthcare than any other country. And yet citizens still have to pay out of pocket for it (even best case, a good insurance plan still has deductibles).

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Except this isn't the case in any other first world country. I bet what you said sounds intuitively true to you but I'd love to see you back it up with some evidence.

Indeed - I'm Canadian so that's where my knowledge comes from - and sure, our system isn't perfect, but by and large, it's quite good. And our taxes aren't massively more than in the US.

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Ah, yes, a few isolated cases are definitely indicative of what would happen at a national scale. Furthermore, just because removing the bureaucracy lets those doctors spare some money in the existing broken system doesn't mean it's the best solution (and there is ample proof that socialized healthcare can be much better across the board).

The entire US system needs to be reworked - there are so many inefficiencies it's insane. Each "coverage network" by an insurance provider is essentially a mini-healthcare system all unto itself, with affiliated doctors, hospitals, clinics, deals with pharmaceutical companies, etc.

 

Imagine if the US as a single entity teamed up for buying power?

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It could (and should) be free.

Agreed about that - I firmly believe that there should be publicly funded Colleges/Universities (I separate this out because College in Canada isn't the same as in the US - it's more like a hybrid between University and Community College... except without the bad reputation that Community College in the US has) that have no tuition fee. I'm also totally okay with allowing private Universities to exist along side the public ones - so long as those Universities receive zero government funding. Not a single dime.

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Is that why countries like Germany and Denmark, despite having a higher quality of education, have fully state sponsored universities while in the US higher education costs an average of $20k per year and student debt is in the trillions?

Honestly, just migrate to Europe, get your degree, and if you still want to live in the US migrate back. It's significantly cheaper.

Actually Germany offers free tuition for Overseas English Speaking students too (at least, they did at one point), though I'm sure there are no doubt requirements and restrictions on that.

[Flying Sausages]

3 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

you can get some pretty decent scholarships with even pretty average grades. i had like a 2.7 GPA in high school and st xavier university offered me a 10,000 dollar scholarship 

and if you look at the university of chicago the tuition looks insane 74,000 dollars a year but the average student gets 39,000 in grants and scholarships and low income students can get over 67,000

Wtf, you can get scholarship in college?! My financial advisor never tell me this. They only tell me I get student loans. 

[spartaman64]

Just now, OlympicAssEater said:

Wtf, you can get scholarship in college?! My financial advisor never tell me this. They only tell me I get student loans. 

what else would scholarships be for?

unless you are wondering if you can apply for scholarships while in college and the answer is still yes

[PlayStation 2]

Here's a hint: because it's a business. America's big-name colleges are owned by the rest of the world seeking to exploit students who either cannot afford in their fucking life to go to college or have enough money to roll up to the best college on this planet in a Rolls-Royce. 

Don't go to big name schools. Look into good local community colleges if your career requires a college degree. That's how you save a ton of money.

[Flying Sausages]

3 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

unless you are wondering if you can apply for scholarships while in college and the answer is still yes

OH SHIT, I DID NOT KNOW THAT YOU CAN APPLY SCHOLARSHIPS WHILE IN COLLEGE! I THOUGHT ONCE YOU GRAD FROM HIGH SCHOOL, YOU CAN'T APPLY SCHOLARSHIPS ANYMORE. 

[JZStudios]

8 hours ago, Sauron said:

Except this isn't the case in any other first world country. I bet what you said sounds intuitively true to you but I'd love to see you back it up with some evidence.

Ah, yes, a few isolated cases are definitely indicative of what would happen at a national scale. Furthermore, just because removing the bureaucracy lets those doctors spare some money in the existing broken system doesn't mean it's the best solution (and there is ample proof that socialized healthcare can be much better across the board).

Maybe you wouldn't call Mexico a "first world" country, but the doctors there are not socialized and they give perfectly good healthcare for exceptionally cheaper. The government also manages to stay out of it.

 

Show me proof that all these other socialized education "first world" countries aren't massively overspending and I'll eat my own shoe. Regardless of you personal bias the issue is government spending. And it's not isolated incidents.

[Yeroh]

18 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Yeah, but again the question comes down to how much tax money is being required.

I get what you're saying, of course hospitals and doctors will try to squeeze as much money as they can out of insurance companies - even when the, let's call it "regular pricing", would've been much cheaper.

 

Still, whether or not it makes sense for the consumer is of course dependent on how often and what kind of treatment they need. For someone like me who rarely goes to the doctor and has never been to a hospital, the monthly sum for healthcare can be a hard pill to swallow. On the other hand, someone with a chronic health problem might think of their monthly healthcare payment as cheap because the price for their treatment would far exceed what they're actually paying. But then that's just how insurance works, for the majority of people it doesn't make financial sense, but it's a safety net that provides some peace of mind.

 

Even as someone who is not really able to take advantage of this, I think it's a huge value to our society, along with free education.

18 hours ago, JZStudios said:

The doctors in America are also typically better than elsewhere. 

I see this fact thrown around a lot (unsurprisingly always by Americans), and I doubt it. How would you even measure that? Also, even if we assume it's true people don't typically die from minor diseases over here and recover just fine with the treatment they get, so what does it matter?

[Sauron]

9 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Maybe you wouldn't call Mexico a "first world" country, but the doctors there are not socialized and they give perfectly good healthcare for exceptionally cheaper. The government also manages to stay out of it.

Might be because due to inflation and lower wages most things are much cheaper in Mexico than they are in the US? See below for more evidence that this example does not work in your favor.

9 hours ago, JZStudios said:

Show me proof that all these other socialized education "first world" countries aren't massively overspending and I'll eat my own shoe. Regardless of you personal bias the issue is government spending. And it's not isolated incidents.

Define "overspending", because I wouldn't classify using tax money for the benefit of all citizens as that. Also, I can show you ample proof that people in those countries spend a lot less per capita on health care than people in the US do.

sauce

 

So on one hand we have a system that has been proven to work in some of the world's wealthiest countries and that costs significantly less to the states endorsing it as well as their citizens, on the other we have people like you arguing that if only the government would "stay out" of it the system would automagically converge towards a more tolerable state of things and point towards a highly disfunctional and impoverished country as an example of what is, in your mind, a working system of self regulation. Mexico lags well behind many other countries in terms of quality and availability of health care to the average citizen as reported by the Federal Research Division:

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Aggregate health statistics have improved greatly since the 1970s. However, Mexico lags well behind other OECD countries in health status and health care availability. Total health care spending accounted for 6.4 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in 2005; per capita spending on health care was US$675 (adjusted for purchasing power parity)—about a quarter of the OECD average. During 2005, 45.5 percent of health spending was paid from public sources—comparable to the share of public spending in the United States but significantly below the OECD average. Private financing in Mexico is almost entirely in the form of out-of-pocket payments, as only 3.1 percent of total expenditures on health are funded through private health insurance. In 2005 Mexico had 1.8 doctors and 2.2 nurses per 1,000 population, a significant increase in health care personnel over the previous decade but again below the OECD averages for these indicators.

it is also among the lowest ranking OECD countries in almost every regard (sauce)

 

 

So what you have effectively shown with your example is that by following your idea you might get a lower cost per capita in exchange for drastically worse quality of health care. I, on the other hand, can point to countries where health care is extremely cheap for everyone while retaining world leading quality.

1 hour ago, Yeroh said:

I see this fact thrown around a lot (unsurprisingly always by Americans), and I doubt it. How would you even measure that? Also, even if we assume it's true people don't typically die from minor diseases over here and recover just fine with the treatment they get, so what does it matter?

On the other hand, people in the US often choose to not call an ambulance for a broken limb because they can't afford it. There are cases of people passing out and going bankrupt because someone called an ambulance for them.

 

By the way, that "fact" about doctors and facilities being better? That's demonstrably bullshit, as you suspected.

 

[dalekphalm]

5 hours ago, Sauron said:

-massive but kickass snip-

Yeah - it's kind of insane.

 

Let's look at some figures.

 

US Federal Healthcare spending (2018): $1.1 Trillion USD

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-much-does-federal-government-spend-health-care

US State Healthcare spending (2015): $605 Billion USD (These were the latest figures I could find that combined all state spending together)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/economy/2018/08/20/what-your-state-spends-health-care-per-capita/37121541/

 

Total US Government Healthcare spending (State + Federal): $1.705 Trillion USD

 

US Population (2018 - approximately): 327.2 Million people

 

$1.705 Trillion USD / 327.2 Million People = $5210.88 per capita spending on healthcare - BEFORE OUT OF POCKET SPENDING

 

Now lets look at Canada:

Canadian Healthcare spending (2015): $5782 per capita

https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-canadas-health-spending-compare-internationally

 

Now, granted, Canada does have some out of pocket costs (mostly prescription drugs, etc), but the vast majority of actual healthcare costs are covered by the provincial health insurance - in Ontario, this is OHIP - Ontario health Insurance Plan - available to all permanent residents at no direct cost.

 

That means, the US Government spends only ~$600 per person less than the Canadian Government - yet the US Government still has massive out of pocket costs.

 

The US System is terrible. Yeah, they might have good healthcare if you can afford it, or if your employer pays for your insurance, but even the outcomes (such as life expectancy) aren't as good as most other "Developed" nations. It's certainly not terrible - but to claim that the US has the best doctors or the best system is naive at best.

 

Frankly, Universal healthcare would do America a lot of good, and we can see from many other countries that it would likely actually save Americans a lot of money in the end. Especially if they actually fixed some of the systemic bureaucratic problems that are causing so much inefficiency.

[Guest]

Let's just say, without going into details as I wouldn't want ti see this interesting thread to be closed, that this is where beliefs and ideologies make people and countries take diverging paths...

 

One of the main problem in the US can be summed up very simply with 2 words: "EpiPen Mylan".

 

And now I'll stop talking about this otherwhise my socialist side is going to have free rein   And I really, REALLY don't want to see this thread closed, as I find it VERY interesting and educational

 

As for the best doctors? Well...Everyone (except americans) knows that they are French!  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Tristerin]

These not for profit institutes are actually for profit - don't care to argue this, its not an argument worth having.  You can have your view and I can have mine.  What was the most recent scandals involving the highest education in our Country with rich people buying their way in and now no one is talking about it as if some atrocious illegal activity did not occur that should SHUT down these institutes...I digress.

[dalekphalm]

14 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

These not for profit institutes are actually for profit - don't care to argue this, its not an argument worth having.  You can have your view and I can have mine.  What was the most recent scandals involving the highest education in our Country with rich people buying their way in and now no one is talking about it as if some atrocious illegal activity did not occur that should SHUT down these institutes...I digress.

You're saying that the leadership of these companies is corrupt - some of them (any involved in the College scandal) definitely are. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

 

I don't know if that warrants shutting down the companies or not - it would depend on what would happen in a similar situation with a "regular" company, and what law demands.

 

Either way, that corruption is not the only problem with the US post secondary education system - far from it.

[wasab]

It's because you are applying to the wrong school. Go to in state public school where the state govt subsidize tuition to the point it costs next to nothing. 

 

 

[wasab]

On 8/13/2019 at 1:48 PM, valdyrgramr said:

The problem is competition primarily as it's a highly sought after career path in modern times with CS having almost no job security.  It's not worthless, but at the same time you have way too much competition.  Some degrees also have shit pay here in the US, and kinda not worth it.  Journalists are told this constantly.  Heck, my sister was going to be a nurse here, but she makes more money than all her nurse friends by managing a some Italian place.

You gotta realize many people did not study their degree for the money. 

 

Plato and many ancient philosphers, naturalists, scientists, and engineers were aristocracy and all filthy rich. They did not need to study for high paying jobs. They did it for enlightenment and pursuit of knowledge. 

 

I believe education in modern society had lost that original root. Today education becomes a commodity. It was reduced to a means for people to climb up the capitalist ladder no different than investing in a stock market. 

 

When the outcome of that investment turns out to be unfavorable, they then say, wow, this is worthless!

 

Sad... So sad...

[Tristerin]

55 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

You're saying that the leadership of these companies is corrupt - some of them (any involved in the College scandal) definitely are. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise.

 

I don't know if that warrants shutting down the companies or not - it would depend on what would happen in a similar situation with a "regular" company, and what law demands.

 

Either way, that corruption is not the only problem with the US post secondary education system - far from it.

You need to replace Companies with Not For Profits - which runs under COMPLETELY different operational guidelines due to the funding they receive from taxpayers.  It should be shut down, just like any incorrectly ran NFP - it broke the rules that would shut down the NFP's I care to donate my time too for sure.  Dealing with United Way, their rules, and how grants work to get real organizations running while these NFPs break rules, get caught and nothing happens...its a joke.  Good for the goose is good for the gander.  When the US gave billions to the car industry to bail them out (tax payer dollars) - like my companies - their miss spending shouldn't allow for us to let them skirt the rules of sleeping in the bed they made.  Instead our Government did what they did.  Me - I don't care if they fail, its the free market - someone WILL replace them, and the product (in either situation) could be superior.  If my gym was failing and tax payers had to bail me out - how is that okay?  Its the same thing, except with more words around it.