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Does Linus or Steve have any real reason to dislike Userbenchmark?

poochyena
By poochyena
in General Discussion
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While sure, the scoring/weighted system is kinda bad, the raw data is still very useful for comparing two CPUs and GPUs, is it not? Steve recently went on a rant about the site, starting at 8:00 which seems completely baseless to me, providing no data to much up the assertion that their data isn't accurate. Which, btw, i'm actually blown away by Linus having never heard of the site before the controversy.

 

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Have you truly used the site before?

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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14 minutes ago, poochyena said:

the raw data is still very useful for comparing two CPUs and GPUs, is it not?

Not really, its a a syntetic benchmark. I guess its okay for large differences, but there are many much better rewiew sites, and you can't show performance of a cpu or gpu in one number.

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1 minute ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

there are many much better rewiew sites

What review site can I compare a ~5 year old laptop CPU to a new desktop CPU?

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1 minute ago, poochyena said:

What review site can I compare a ~5 year old laptop CPU to a new desktop CPU?

anandtech bench is pretty good.

 

But the other question is why? Other than for fun, you know which chip is faster, so how is userbenchmark helping you?

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6 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

Not really, its a a syntetic benchmark.

This exactly. It's just like Geekbench and Passmark. The results hold no real value as all they say is "this CPU/GPU did better at our specific test" which doesn't correlate to any actual real workload. I'd much rather compare benchmarks on REAL workloads such as handbrake, gaming framerates, rendering, code compilation, etc to actually see how the particular piece of hardware performs in something people actually use their hardware for. A synthetic benchmark like those are only useful if you just sit there all day and run synthetic benchmarks, I'd much rather see how long potential upgrades will take to encode my favorite anime that I ripped from a Blu Ray since that's something I actually do with my computer?‍♂️

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23 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

Other than for fun, you know which chip is faster

But I don't, and I don't know by how much.

 

23 minutes ago, imreloadin said:

The results hold no real value as all they say is "this CPU/GPU did better at our specific test" which doesn't correlate to any actual real workload.

Do you have any evidence for that? Such as, one CPU doing ~30% better than another CPU in their tests, but "real world" tests, its completely different, like only 5% better or 90% better?

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One of the issues is that I could forget to put on CPU paste and then contribute my results to the site and they hold the same weight as if GN did it in a controlled environment. That alone makes any data the site presents for entertainment purposes only.

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20 minutes ago, CircleTech said:

Just like me as a business owner technically have a reason to hate 3rd gen AMD Ryzen because it reduced the value of all the computers and parts I currently hold.

That's only an issue if you have waaayyy too much backstock lol

Want to custom loop?  Ask me more if you are curious

 

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1 hour ago, poochyena said:

But I don't, and I don't know by how much.

 

Do you have any evidence for that? Such as, one CPU doing ~30% better than another CPU in their tests, but "real world" tests, its completely different, like only 5% better or 90% better?

image.png.ad6cd6d667db94e43513505eb8855f3c.png

 

Below are the number of FPS you get doing a 1080p60fps HEVC encode using Handbrake for the 1950x:

image.png.9429e6490274ed1d215ff342884d8239.png

 

And the 8700K:

image.png.a7724a90fa276f67cc81563078b77b2f.png

 

As you can see Userbenchmark states that the 8700K is 18% better however the 1950X achieves a 23% higher framerate in Handbrake. So if I purchased the 8700K based on Userbenchmark what would be a 3 hour encode on the 1950X would take 4 hours to complete on the 8700K.

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Userbenchamrk is fine if you know how to use it which is rough estimations of performance based on the individual scores rather than the labeled over all effective speed.

 

The website is flawed in many ways but at the same time is very straight forwards which helps novices.

Personal Desktop":

CPU: Intel Core i7 10700K @5ghz |~| Cooling: bq! Dark Rock Pro 4 |~| MOBO: Gigabyte Z490UD ATX|~| RAM: 16gb DDR4 3333mhzCL16 G.Skill Trident Z |~| GPU: RX 6900XT Sapphire Nitro+ |~| PSU: Corsair TX650M 80Plus Gold |~| Boot:  SSD WD Green M.2 2280 240GB |~| Storage: 1x3TB HDD 7200rpm Seagate Barracuda + SanDisk Ultra 3D 1TB |~| Case: Fractal Design Meshify C Mini |~| Display: Toshiba UL7A 4K/60hz |~| OS: Windows 10 Pro.

Luna, the temporary Desktop:

CPU: AMD R9 7950XT  |~| Cooling: bq! Dark Rock 4 Pro |~| MOBO: Gigabyte Aorus Master |~| RAM: 32G Kingston HyperX |~| GPU: AMD Radeon RX 7900XTX (Reference) |~| PSU: Corsair HX1000 80+ Platinum |~| Windows Boot Drive: 2x 512GB (1TB total) Plextor SATA SSD (RAID0 volume) |~| Linux Boot Drive: 500GB Kingston A2000 |~| Storage: 4TB WD Black HDD |~| Case: Cooler Master Silencio S600 |~| Display 1 (leftmost): Eizo (unknown model) 1920x1080 IPS @ 60Hz|~| Display 2 (center): BenQ ZOWIE XL2540 1920x1080 TN @ 240Hz |~| Display 3 (rightmost): Wacom Cintiq Pro 24 3840x2160 IPS @ 60Hz 10-bit |~| OS: Windows 10 Pro (games / art) + Linux (distro: NixOS; programming and daily driver)
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11 hours ago, poochyena said:

the scoring/weighted system is kinda bad

This is the main reason, and the data itself isn't always trustworthy - the benchmarks are ran by users and you can't know what they did. On the other hand a professional review, even with less data, is more reliable due to using the correct methodology.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

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9 hours ago, CircleTech said:

Other recycling firms are facing the same problems as I am.

 

Many firms who operate in my business have pallets and pallets of PCs just waiting to be sold to the secondary market. Every time new hardware is released, the value of those PCs goes down.

This is an obvious, well known issue in that case.  Why have $10k in stock when they're always devaluing and you'll never be able to burn through your reserves?

Want to custom loop?  Ask me more if you are curious

 

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I'd argue Userbenchmark is only really useful if you have nothing else to use to compare two pieces of hardware. But it's not useful as a way to check to verify that your hardware is working as intended because you don't know what sort of settings and fine tuning the people who submitted the scores did.

I have a blog! And a list of guides I've posted

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10 hours ago, imreloadin said:

As you can see Userbenchmark states that the 8700K is 18% better however the 1950X

I said I agree the scores are bad, i'm talking about the raw data. look at the single core, 4 core, and multi core data.

 

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

This is the main reason, and the data itself isn't always trustworthy - the benchmarks are ran by users and you can't know what they did.

With hundreds of reviews, I'd imagine the average would weed out the idiots.

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3 minutes ago, poochyena said:

With hundreds of reviews, I'd imagine the average would weed out the idiots.

You can provide misleading results even if you aren't an idiot; ram speed and other things can influence the result. And either way, what's the point of doing an average on a part that is sold in identical copies? The results at stock speeds should be exactly the same given the same external conditions, which is what reviewers measure.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

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6 minutes ago, poochyena said:

[...]

With hundreds of reviews, I'd imagine the average would weed out the idiots.

That only works assuming the statistical distribution of that error actually is zero-mean. I would imagine that the factor "user error" (what you attribute to "idiots") tends to lead to worse benchmark results in most cases which would hurt the underlying zero-mean assumption.

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20 minutes ago, Sauron said:

You can provide misleading results even if you aren't an idiot

One person, yes, but the collective average of hundreds of people?

 

20 minutes ago, Sauron said:

which is what reviewers measure.

but they don't compare it to every chip. How am I suppose to know how much faster/slower a i7-4700MQ is to a i5-6600k?

16 minutes ago, greenhorn said:

tends to lead to worse benchmark results in most cases which would hurt the underlying zero-mean assumption.

but wouldn't that be consistent across all tests then? The relative performance difference is all that matters.

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1 hour ago, poochyena said:

One person, yes, but the collective average of hundreds of people?

Again, that doesn't really guarantee anything - the results could be all skewed for all we know, there is no standard methodology.

1 hour ago, poochyena said:

but they don't compare it to every chip. How am I suppose to know how much faster/slower a i7-4700MQ is to a i5-6600k?

Well, first of all why would you care? One of those is a laptop chip, comparing them doesn't make a lot of sense as they don't fit the same purpose. Secondly, there are sites like notebookcheck which offer curated benchmark results for virtually every relevant mobile cpu. For your example:

image.png.71f26ade12731dece0a81c2271b6a614.png

 

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

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1 hour ago, Sauron said:

the results could be all skewed

Could be? Well, are they?

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Well, first of all why would you care?

I wanted to know if it was worth upgrading from my laptop to a desktop with a 6600k chip.

 

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

For your example:

That site does show it being a closer match between the two CPUs than userbenchmark does.

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14 hours ago, imreloadin said:

As you can see Userbenchmark states that the 8700K is 18% better however the 1950X achieves a 23% higher framerate in Handbrake. So if I purchased the 8700K based on Userbenchmark what would be a 3 hour encode on the 1950X would take 4 hours to complete on the 8700K.

The 18% is for the Avg. Gaming Bench though. f95448e779d55a376043ac61b6a22f41.png

It's not saying it's 18% better for everything. 

I personally find userbenchmark pretty reliable if you look at the labels the numbers are attached to. 

If you ever need help with a build, read the following before posting: http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/3061-build-plan-thread-recommendations-please-read-before-posting/
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Posted
15 hours ago, imreloadin said:

image.png.ad6cd6d667db94e43513505eb8855f3c.png

 

Below are the number of FPS you get doing a 1080p60fps HEVC encode using Handbrake for the 1950x:

image.png.9429e6490274ed1d215ff342884d8239.png

 

And the 8700K:

image.png.a7724a90fa276f67cc81563078b77b2f.png

 

As you can see Userbenchmark states that the 8700K is 18% better however the 1950X achieves a 23% higher framerate in Handbrake. So if I purchased the 8700K based on Userbenchmark what would be a 3 hour encode on the 1950X would take 4 hours to complete on the 8700K.

 

Really?

 

It says that the 8700k is 18% faster in the "AVERAGE GAMING BENCH" not in productivity, not overall.

 

if you had looked a bit to the left you would have seen this. if you had been arsed to scroll down 5 rows you would have also seen that the 1950x is listed as 35% faster than the 8700k in their productivity benchmark.

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Posted
42 minutes ago, poochyena said:

Could be? Well, are they?

That's the point, we don't know - the only way to check is to look up a reviewer's scores which kind of defeats the purpose.

42 minutes ago, poochyena said:

That site does show it being a closer match between the two CPUs than userbenchmark does.

One more reason not to trust userbenchmark much.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

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