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Cloudflare terminate 8Chan

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3 hours ago, EarthWormJM2 said:

You aren't saying anything I don't already agree with. Private companies can do whatever they like, it's their platform. I just don't want the government getting involved and setting rules and laws on what people can and can't say, that's when things can easily get out of control. 

 

I'm not saying let them sit around, I applaud cloudflare for removing them. But it's just they way of the world, those kinds of people will find a way. That's why we should be focusing on the metal health of these people and how they are educated to view the world, not blaming other things that have been proven to not be a cause of violence.

Well, in the US it is mainly congress who can't violate the first.  To be fair, other branches of the government can in fact get in trouble for it; however, it was originally aimed at congress.  But, this has nothing to do with the government, and more with a private company trying to look good to the public.  Which is smart to do considering the amount of money they could lose by deciding to do business with an objectively morally flawed platform.


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4 hours ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Not just that, but is it a good idea to censor radical ideas and push them even more underground where they can't be challenged or debunked? It basically creates an echo chamber that radicalizes people with already radical views.

This is interesting because, on the flip side, leaving an open platform makes it easier for people to push their hateful or misinformed ideologies upon others. Take flat earthers and anti-vaxxers, I feel having such an open internet has made it that much easier for them to spread disinformation and make the problem worse than it initially was. Not only, but these people have managed to create their own echo chambers on websites like Facebook and Twitter, so we can't ban a particular website, we'd have to ban the ability of the misinformed and hateful to communicate altogether if this is the route we take (not that we should).


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I'm not going to read the whole thread to see if someone's already mentioned this, so if this is a repeat forgive me, but my issue with this is it does nothing to curtail violent or extremist ideology. They'll just make a new forum and go somewhere else that's even more obscure, further radicalizing them in their own echo chamber. I think this is a strong factor in why we're seeing so many mass killings globally, not just in the US (whether is guns, cars, bombs, etc).


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Why is this thread about Cloudflare and 8chan about gun control now?


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20 minutes ago, Nowak said:

Why is this thread about Cloudflare and 8chan about gun control now?

Because the reason behind it was the celebration of a shooting then politics usually comes in which leads to gun control which then becomes about some form of art when the actual problem is about mental health and bigotry, and the reason for Cloudflare distancing themselves is about money.


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1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

Because the reason behind it was the celebration of a shooting then politics usually comes in which leads to gun control which then becomes about some form of art when the actual problem is about mental health and bigotry, and the reason for Cloudflare distancing themselves is about money.

Oh yeah, the white supremacist shooting in El Paso. Heard all about that.


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Never really liked 8chan, always preferred 4chan

8chan has a different culture than 4chan and tend to have people spouting their real opinions than just LARPing.


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24 minutes ago, Suika said:

This is interesting because, on the flip side, leaving an open platform makes it easier for people to push their hateful or misinformed ideologies upon others. Take flat earthers and anti-vaxxers, I feel having such an open internet has made it that much easier for them to spread disinformation and make the problem worse than it initially was. Not only, but these people have managed to create their own echo chambers on websites like Facebook and Twitter, so we can't ban a particular website, we'd have to ban the ability of the misinformed and hateful to communicate altogether if this is the route we take (not that we should).

And there in lies the problem who gets banned, removed or censored and how much.  I remember people talking some months back about some right wing talk show on YouTube getting there whole channel deleted at the same time as one of the way way out there Anti-vaxxers merely had her channel demonetized. Doctors where pushing to have her removed as it was not just your run of the mill toothpaste causes Autism BS but things that could actually harm/kill people. The talk show had maybe somehow had a fan doxx someone I didn't really fallow it.  When you try to censor you are bound to be seen as backing the opposite side. I am sure the far left thinks Facebook is just full of southern bible thumping gun toting rednecks and the right thinks its full of communist LGBT vegans.  

Hopefully any moderation will fall in the center but it can sometime be hard to see where center is. Sometimes one side can be very loud but it doesn't make there message true.           

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7 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Except, 99,9999999% of people didn't even know 8chan was hosted/powered by Cloudflare.

Just because you didn't know doesn't mean crucial people working in that industry didn't know. 

 

Companies don't turn $$$ away for no reason,

 


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1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Just because you didn't know doesn't mean crucial people working in that industry didn't know. 

 

Companies don't turn $$$ away for no reason,

 

Those people aren't dumb motherfuckers who jump on moral bullshit like normies do and start whining on twitter about it. There was something else going on behind the scenes.

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18 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Those people aren't dumb motherfuckers who jump on moral bullshit like normies do and start whining on twitter about it. There was something else going on behind the scenes.

ikr trying to be moral such a normie thing to do

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18 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Those people aren't dumb motherfuckers who jump on moral bullshit like normies do and start whining on twitter about it. There was something else going on behind the scenes.

What exactly do you think was going on behind the scene? Because I can guarantee you it was pretty simple - someone brought 8Chan and likely the manifesto (the one supposedly posted by one of the shooters minutes before the shooting) to the attention of a high level executive, and said "this was posted on one of our clients - here's a bunch of other negative things posted there too".

 

And that exec said "Well that's a PR disaster, and it's only a matter of time before this information becomes public knowledge and someone connects us to it - let's be proactive".

 

And that was that.

 

There was no ulterior motive. It was simply a company protecting it's image.


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3 hours ago, Suika said:

This is interesting because, on the flip side, leaving an open platform makes it easier for people to push their hateful or misinformed ideologies upon others. Take flat earthers and anti-vaxxers, I feel having such an open internet has made it that much easier for them to spread disinformation and make the problem worse than it initially was. Not only, but these people have managed to create their own echo chambers on websites like Facebook and Twitter, so we can't ban a particular website, we'd have to ban the ability of the misinformed and hateful to communicate altogether if this is the route we take (not that we should).

Flat earthers and anti vaxxers are basically memes at this point. For every flat Earth/anti vax post there are 10 replies debunking it and making fun of the user. And their communities are hardly echo chambers. Just check the flat Earth Twitter account. lol

 

I disagree that banning misinformation/offensive content is the way to go, and I think it's quite obvious why. Who gets to decide what is hateful and what is not? Who gets to decide who is misinformed and who is not? Basically if that happened, you would have a few big corporations deciding what you are allowed to say/believe and what you are not, which I think we can all agree would be really bad. (As bad as government censorship and potentially even worse)


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14 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Flat earthers and anti vaxxers are basically memes at this point. For every flat Earth/anti vax post there are 10 replies debunking it and making fun of the user. And their communities are hardly echo chambers. Just check the flat Earth Twitter account. lol

 

I disagree that banning misinformation/offensive content is the way to go, and I think it's quite obvious why. Who gets to decide what is hateful and what is not? Who gets to decide who is misinformed and who is not? Basically if that happened, you would have a few big corporations deciding what you are allowed to say/believe and what you are not, which I think we can all agree would be really bad. (As bad as government censorship and potentially even worse)

The problem is that this is already happening. It happens here on LTT, for example. In this case, it's ultimately Linus that decides, though I'm sure that he largely delegates that to the Admin team, etc.

 

And that's okay. Same reason I think it's okay for Facebook to remove posts that violate their TOS. Granted, in the case of Social Media like Facebook, it's difficult for a competitor to truly challenge them, but the only other option is for government regulation to force Facebook to undertake certain actions, such as forcing them to allow free speech despite the fact that law (nor the constitution) does not guarantee that.

 

So, basically the only way to ensure what you want is heavier government regulation.


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1 minute ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Flat earthers and anti vaxxers are basically memes at this point. For every flat Earth/anti vax post there are 10 replies debunking it and making fun of the user. And their communities are hardly echo chambers. Just check the flat Earth Twitter account. lol

 

I disagree that banning misinformation/offensive content is the way to go for one simple reason. Who gets to decide what is hateful and what is not? Who gets to decide who is misinformed and who is not? Basically if that happened, you would have a few big corporations deciding what you are allowed to say/believe and what you are not, which I think we can all agree would be really bad. (As bad as government censorship and potentially even worse)

I'm sorry, but it's pretty easy to establish a baseline for what constitutes hate and misinformation on a privately owned site.

 

For example, flat-Earthers and anti-vaxxers are demonstrably wrong. That's not the site determining what's false; that's objective reality.  If there's a well-established consensus based on evidence, a private site shouldn't have to entertain someone trying to spread false claims, especially since it can produce real damage.  Look at anti-vaxxers, for instance -- arguably the rise of infections was spurred on by ignorant parents trusting in false claims on Facebook.

 

Hate is a thornier subject, but I don't think it's a stretch to set minimum expectations for fighting it.  And simply put, it's hard to say you're running a site that welcomes all cultures if you allow hatemongers to run wild.  As much concern as there is that private companies might have too much sway over what's allowed, I'd rather them do something than let hate purveyors make life miserable for everyone else.

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1 hour ago, RejZoR said:

Those people aren't dumb motherfuckers who jump on moral bullshit like normies do and start whining on twitter about it. There was something else going on behind the scenes.

Of course they are not dumb mother fuckers,  I don't know what you think is happening here but it really isn't that complicated,  business number 1 is looking after itself because business number 2 is a liability.   And before you go redefining what a liability is, it can be anything that causes a financial loss. 

 

 

 

 


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Sometimes I miss contractions like n't on the end of words like wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't.    Please don't be a dick,  make allowances when reading my posts.

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14 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

The problem is that this is already happening. It happens here on LTT, for example. In this case, it's ultimately Linus that decides, though I'm sure that he largely delegates that to the Admin team, etc.

I mean a tech forum isn't exactly the same as a platform that's used by like half the world's population every day.

16 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

government regulation to force Facebook to undertake certain actions, such as forcing them to allow free speech despite the fact that law (nor the constitution) does not guarantee that.

Honestly, why not? Platforms like Facebook/YouTube, have a huge influence on society/public opinion, so I believe that free speech should be protected.

16 minutes ago, Commodus said:

I'm sorry, but it's pretty easy to establish a baseline for what constitutes hate and misinformation on a privately owned site.

Is is though? Let's take the Steven Crowder/YouTube example. YouTube at first said that according to their guidelines, Crowder didn't do anything wrong. One day later they decided that Crowder did break their guidelines and demonetized his videos. Not even the website's own guidelines are a good enough baseline for what is acceptable and what is not.

20 minutes ago, Commodus said:

For example, flat-Earthers and anti-vaxxers are demonstrably wrong. That's not the site determining what's false; that's objective reality.  If there's a well-established consensus based on evidence, a private site shouldn't have to entertain someone trying to spread false claims, especially since it can produce real damage.  Look at anti-vaxxers, for instance -- arguably the rise of infections was spurred on by ignorant parents trusting in false claims on Facebook.

Sure, but what about "fake news"? That is misinformation and a lot of news outlets often promote such news. Should these news outlets be banned too?

23 minutes ago, Commodus said:

As much concern as there is that private companies might have too much sway over what's allowed, I'd rather them do something than let hate purveyors make life miserable for everyone else.

I disagree, I don't think that letting big corporations control what opinions users can and cannot have is a good thing because some opinions can make someone's life "miserable". (Especially when there's a block user feature available)


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Regardless of popularity or influence from sites such as Facebook or Twitter, they are privately owned and they own the server space that you're putting your speech on.  It's not a public forum. You have to sign up and abide by their terms of service and those terms of service can change over time.  If you let the government decide what they can or cannot censor you are opening a whole can of worms of what the government can control over private platforms. It could start at Facebook and trickle down to a site like this one.  Also if you support a small government free market style system of business then you should highly against giving that sort of control over the government.

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41 minutes ago, PCGuy_5960 said:

Sure, but what about "fake news"? That is misinformation and a lot of news outlets often promote such news. Should these news outlets be banned too?

Going by the logic put forth, yes.

 

But let's be honest here, those arguing for banning wha they claim is misinformation are highly disingenuous. They don't really want to stop misinformation, they want to stop opposing viewpoints.


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- Thread cleaned - 

This is not the place to be debating gun control. Please stay on topic which is discussing CloudFlare terminating the services it provided to 8chan.


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2 hours ago, Commodus said:

Hate is a thornier subject, but I don't think it's a stretch to set minimum expectations for fighting it.  And simply put, it's hard to say you're running a site that welcomes all cultures if you allow hatemongers to run wild.  As much concern as there is that private companies might have too much sway over what's allowed, I'd rather them do something than let hate purveyors make life miserable for everyone else.

Who defines hate?

What if everyone with left leaning views was determined to be an agent of evil, and then rounded up and systematically excluded from society? You could easily argue that authoritarian left-wing groups committed the world's worst atrocities (something like 100M people killed between Stalin and Mao in the name of "equality" - basically Hitler times 4x). Should "supporters of genocidal maniacs 4 times worse than Hitler" be allowed in society? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

------

I say this as I know you have a certain slant. I don't think you're evil and I do think you are entitled to your opinions. There should be protections explicitly built into society to ensure that this continues, even if "this makes me feel icky" is a side effect at times. 


 

14 hours ago, realpetertdm said:

Do you have any evidence (i.e. witness accounts) to prove this? There's no indication that this happened from what I can tell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colorado_Civil_Rights_Commission#Subsequent_events

Court filings. At some level, Phillips, who pretty much just wanted to be left alone and operate under the no-harm principle, became a symbol of hate in the eyes of the LGBT community and needs to be legislated into oblivion through the use of an institution, the Colorado Civil Rights Commission, that was found by the Supreme Court to have bigoted view points.

To be fair, there were certainly religious groups doing the same to people in the LGBT community  decades ago. At the end of the day the issue is institutionalized bigotry. 


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1 hour ago, comander said:

Who defines hate?

What if everyone with left leaning views was determined to be an agent of evil, and then rounded up and systematically excluded from society? You could easily argue that authoritarian left-wing groups committed the world's worst atrocities (something like 100M people killed between Stalin and Mao in the name of "equality" - basically Hitler times 4x). Should "supporters of genocidal maniacs 4 times worse than Hitler" be allowed in society? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

------

I say this as I know you have a certain slant. I don't think you're evil and I do think you are entitled to your opinions. There should be protections explicitly built into society to ensure that this continues, even if "this makes me feel icky" is a side effect at times. 

Well the first question you should ask is how did it get to that point, because the counter argument to this is because you allowed unchallenged hate speakers to degrade society to the point that this could happen. It is a nuanced and difficult situation but the inaction, doing nothing, is actually how that happens, it isn't a left or right problem and dictatorships under which events like those happen violates core principles of the classically defined left and right.

 

It's also a mistake to try and define actions or issues as left or right, boxing things up and labeling them somehow has become a preferred tool, because different political groups and different social and regional groups identify the same thing as either left or right and on different issues they can follow or oppose each other.

 

Edit:

Cloudflare kicking 8chan off their service isn't a political move, or really have any political motivation behind it. Protecting a company image doesn't have to be politically motivated, because what they fear and the reasoning behind it can equally come from either side of the political spectrum. Cloudflare provides a technical service to it's customers and try to do no more than that, stepping in a removing a customer is very uncommon and they reasoned why. It's not a simple matter of that customer breaking laws or the site being used to break laws because Cloudflare operates globally, they can't just not provide service on those grounds alone because laws are not common across all their customers and regions they service. There isn't much point me rehashing what Cloudflare said because you can actually go read their statement.

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2 hours ago, leadeater said:

Well the first question you should ask is how did it get to that point, because the counter argument to this is because you allowed unchallenged hate speakers to degrade society to the point that this could happen. It is a nuanced and difficult situation but the inaction, doing nothing, is actually how that happens, it isn't a left or right problem and dictatorships under which events like those happen violates core principles of the classically defined left and right.

 

It's also a mistake to try and define actions or issues as left or right, boxing things up and labeling them somehow has become a preferred tool, because different political groups and different social and regional groups identify the same thing as either left or right and on different issues they can follow or oppose each other.

 

Edit:

Cloudflare kicking 8chan off their service isn't a political move, or really have any political motivation behind it. Protecting a company image doesn't have to be politically motivated, because what they fear and the reasoning behind it can equally come from either side of the political spectrum. Cloudflare provides a technical service to it's customers and try to do no more than that, stepping in a removing a customer is very uncommon and they reasoned why. It's not a simple matter of that customer breaking laws or the site being used to break laws because Cloudflare operates globally, they can't just not provide service on those grounds alone because laws are not common across all their customers and regions they service. There isn't much point me rehashing what Cloudflare said because you can actually go read their statement.

Who has the institutional power to define what constitutes hate speech? Are they democratically elected? Are there checks and balances to prevent abuse?

 

I'll agree that polarization and radicalization is an issue. Some of the issue is that people end up with concerns about their general welfare... And things escalate. 

 

I would argue that the standard should be free speech stops when anothers' welfare is materially affected (offended or mildly upset doesn't count, having your life turned upside down does)

 

---

 

Cloudflare's actions are one level removed from the political environment. The last thing they want is heavy regulation. You can be almost certain that their legal counsel was called in. 

 


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12 minutes ago, comander said:

Who has the institutional power to define what constitutes hate speech? Are they democratically elected? Are there checks and balances to prevent abuse?

The power is the private company who can decide who they will and will not do business with. If a business doesn't want to work with you that's not an abuse of power, that is their decision to not work with you. Unless they are violating a law by refusing that business your money alone doesn't require they work with you. These are the laws of business that they operate under and came to be by democratic processes, at least in the  'western countries' or rather the democratic ones which isn't a small list.

 

If every business that provides the service that you want or need all refuse to work with you then it's likely you are the problem and not them. If that is not the case then you can go a legal route to resolve the issue, your checks and balances.

 

What you point to is covered already, it might be 2 to 10 steps removed but it's there already. Unless you actually want government regulation of speech but I doubt you actually want that, "In the name of speech protection I mandate you allow [insert here]". All you'd be doing there is scoring an own goal.

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