Jump to content

Smurfing by AI in Starcraft 2?

Guest

Google's DeepMind goes undercover to battle gamers

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48950103

 

Quote

Gamers in Europe are being invited to take on a bot developed by some of the world's leading artificial intelligence researchers.

But there's a twist: players will not be told when they have been pitted against it.

The tests are being carried out by DeepMind, the London-based AI company that previously created a program that defeated the world's top Go players.

In this case, the challenge involves the sci-fi video game Starcraft II.

Sometimes top players will know each other very well, and know almost exactly what their opponent will do. This is more specific when each top player has a specific race, whereas an AI can be programmed to be skillful at all. 

Quote

DeepMind - which is owned by Google's parent Alphabet - has said its bot AlphaStar is playing anonymously so as to get as close to a normal match situation as possible. The concern is that if people knew for sure that they were playing against a computer, they might play differently.

Honestly is probably welcome. The built-in AI in SC2 sucks. Many players, as this is an electronic sport (e-sport), play constantly to upskill. 

Quote

"It's a game of hidden information and making decisions with very limited knowledge," explained Raza Sekha, from Kent.

"People are very curious to see whether DeepMind will innovate and come up with new strategic thoughts.

"That would be a really great achievement, but I don't think many people are expecting it to happen."

Other notable AI's (I think OpenAI) have simply just make stalkers, as with perfect micro you can beat almost any combination. Hopefully it won't just be cheesing the game and we'll see some cool strategies that human players can use. 

Quote

Handicapped AI

AlphaStar's progress has not been without controversy.

Some players felt that it had an unfair advantage in earlier matches because it could look at a game's entire map at once, taking in more detail than a human could.

"As a human, one of the hardest parts of the game is multitasking," explained Mr Sekha.

"It's really hard to split your attention between two places.

If you have infinite APM, like the AI anything is possible. I think they cap it for a bit more fairness, and for the AI to develop its strategies. 

Quote

So, an AI has a crucial advantage when it can see everywhere at once, as that lets it attack and defend almost at the same time, whereas a human would have to choose whether it's best to do one or the other."

To tackle this, the agent has been tweaked to use the game's map more like humans do. It now has to zoom in to a section to determine the action within, and can only move units to locations in view.

DeepMind has also reduced the number of actions AlphaStar can take per minute to address other criticism.

Well there you go. 

Quote

But Mr Sekha said there were still unanswered questions.

"If it can switch very quickly from one camera to another camera, much faster than a human could, that would still be a bit unfair," he said.

"So it will be really interesting to see what steps they have taken to level the playing field, because last time the community felt it was a bit too much in favour of the artificial intelligence."

Some human players could beat the AI, but it was like a match in 100 etc. More or less it was just making stalkers with infinite micro. Hopefully we see a little bit more. This is a huge progression in terms of a playable AI for SC2, and hopefully many other RTS games where this AI could be implemented. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

i have been waiting for this to be posted here

 

Skynet has arrived....well at least in EU

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, RyomaSJibenG said:

i have been waiting for this to be posted here

 

Skynet has arrived....well at least in EU

RIP Serral’s MMR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, SC2Mitch said:

The bot is such a cheater, hope he gets banned by Blizzard. 

Just call it toxic and tell other players to report it.They'll ban it no questions asked coz its Blizzard lol...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Open AI want to move to API less AI, where the AI is given the same screen input as a person and it has to output keyboard commands and mouse commands. Once this happens I would consider it a even playing field.

if you want to annoy me, then join my teamspeak server ts.benja.cc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, floofer said:

it was just making stalkers with infinite micro

About what you'd expect :P reminds me of the AI longbowmen in AoE2

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

About what you'd expect :P reminds me of the AI longbowmen in AoE2

 

AGE OF EMPIRES 2 IS A PERFECTLY BALANCED GAME WITH NO EXPLOITS

 

PLEASE QUOTE ME IF YOU ARE REPLYING TO ME

Desktop Build: Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.0GHz, AsRock Fatal1ty X370 Professional Gaming, 48GB Corsair DDR4 @ 3000MHz, RX5700 XT 8GB Sapphire Nitro+, Benq XL2730 1440p 144Hz FS

Retro Build: Intel Pentium III @ 500 MHz, Dell Optiplex G1 Full AT Tower, 768MB SDRAM @ 133MHz, Integrated Graphics, Generic 1024x768 60Hz Monitor


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is awesome. It's definitely limited as far as APM and only sees what the camera sees, so like in line whqt humans would know ans be able to do. 

| Ryzen 7 7800X3D | AM5 B650 Aorus Elite AX | G.Skill Trident Z5 Neo RGB DDR5 32GB 6000MHz C30 | Sapphire PULSE Radeon RX 7900 XTX | Samsung 990 PRO 1TB with heatsink | Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360 | Seasonic Focus GX-850 | Lian Li Lanccool III | Mousepad: Skypad 3.0 XL / Zowie GTF-X | Mouse: Zowie S1-C | Keyboard: Corsair K63 Cherry MX red | Beyerdynamic MMX 300 (2nd Gen) | Acer XV272U | OS: Windows 11 |

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Just call it toxic and tell other players to report it.They'll ban it no questions asked coz its Blizzard lol...

Yeah I once got reported for abusive chat just because people didn't like that I was playing attack torb in overwatch. Hadn't typed a single word.  Then later I got my account suspended for abusive chat while I was chat restricted form the earlier false reports. I mean c'mon blizzard. How can someone be toxic in that when they can't even type in it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

Yeah I once got reported for abusive chat just because people didn't like that I was playing attack torb in overwatch. Hadn't typed a single word.  Then later I got my account suspended for abusive chat while I was chat restricted form the earlier false reports. I mean c'mon blizzard. How can someone be toxic in that when they can't even type in it. 

I got suspended last time by a god damn griefer. First he blocked me on spawn with Mei's ice wall, when i called him on his bullshit, he denied it and said I'm imagining things. The proceeded to bark at everyone to report me because I said mean words at the jackass when he blocked me with ice wall. Blizzard is a fucking joke with their retarded "zero toxicity" policy that turne the game into most toxic shit I've ever seen. You can just make shit up, get someone suspended and they just roll with it. I've never ever seen anything this retarded in my life and I've been playing online games since UT99... heh. So yeah,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just now, RejZoR said:

I got suspended last time by a god damn griefer. First he blocked me on spawn with Mei's ice wall, when i called him on his bullshit, he denied it and said I'm imagining things. The proceeded to bark at everyone to report me because I said mean words at the jackass when he blocked me with ice wall. Blizzard is a fucking joke with their retarded "zero toxicity" policy that turne the game into most toxic shit I've ever seen. You can just make shit up, get someone suspended and they just roll with it. I've never ever seen anything this retarded in my life and I've been playing online games since UT99... heh. So yeah,

Yeah it is pretty bullshit tbh. The game is kinda a joke at this point because 90% people don't really try. I cant say I blame them though because tryharding is just super unfun at this point because you just end up getting frustrated. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Yeah it is pretty bullshit tbh. The game is kinda a joke at this point because 90% people don't really try. I cant say I blame them though because tryharding is just super unfun at this point because you just end up getting frustrated. 

If I take Team Deathmatches, I'm gonna lose 17 games out of 20. It's not only super unfun, it's downright frustrating. Last thing we need is some godlike Ai pretending it has to press buttons and be dumber to not be totally unfair.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Tedny said:

isn't this 2 months old news? 

The AI then only played Protoss and was not on the ladder. So now its playing on BattleNet and not just a LAN with some pros, and with all races. 

 

[EDIT]

and all player ranks depending on its MMR. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, The Benjamins said:

Open AI want to move to API less AI, where the AI is given the same screen input as a person and it has to output keyboard commands and mouse commands. Once this happens I would consider it a even playing field.

And even then the AI would still have a significant advantage with no muscle/nerve control delay, it's reactions would be virtually instant as a keyboard input. 

 

Unless they can account for the physical motor control lag and mouse input lag etc then the advantage AI has would cloud the difference between biological brains and electronic ones.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, mr moose said:

And even then the AI would still have a significant advantage with no muscle/nerve control delay, it's reactions would be virtually instant as a keyboard input. 

 

Unless they can account for the physical motor control lag and mouse input lag etc then the advantage AI has would cloud the difference between biological brains and electronic ones.

It would be interesting if the AI could only see what was going on through a camera pointed at the screen using some vision algorithms to process the image. It could also be made to interact with mouse and keyboard through robotic arms with similar response times to a human limb.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well Battle.net takes being over 18 witch sucks.

I live in misery USA. my timezone is central daylight time which is either UTC -5 or -4 because the government hates everyone.

into trains? here's the model railroad thread!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Imagine getting banned.

Specs: Motherboard: Asus X470-PLUS TUF gaming (Yes I know it's poor but I wasn't informed) RAM: Corsair VENGEANCE® LPX DDR4 3200Mhz CL16-18-18-36 2x8GB

            CPU: Ryzen 9 5900X          Case: Antec P8     PSU: Corsair RM850x                        Cooler: Antec K240 with two Noctura Industrial PPC 3000 PWM

            Drives: Samsung 970 EVO plus 250GB, Micron 1100 2TB, Seagate ST4000DM000/1F2168 GPU: EVGA RTX 2080 ti Black edition

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, comander said:

They limited APM and reaction times. 

They limited APM,  but I didn't read anything about reaction or the a bilty to switch between interpretations of the map.  Have they accounted for physical hardware interfacing?  having they accounted for the fact every action has a delay to completion by humans.    It seems the article is light on on information.

 

 

It just seems they are pitting two very different system against one another,  once you account for the flaws that hold humans back it's a no brainier the AI iwould become faster and more capable.

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, mr moose said:

They limited APM,  but I didn't read anything about reaction or the a bilty to switch between interpretations of the map.  Have they accounted for physical hardware interfacing?  having they accounted for the fact every action has a delay to completion by humans.    It seems the article is light on on information.

 

 

It just seems they are pitting two very different system against one another,  once you account for the flaws that hold humans back it's a no brainier the AI iwould become faster and more capable.

This young gentleman explains it a little and adds his thoughts. That said, the AI has been beaten once or twice. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, floofer said:

This young gentleman explains it a little and adds his thoughts. That said, the AI has been beaten once or twice. 

 

9 minutes ago, comander said:

Here's a discussion on some of it. 

 

https://www.alexirpan.com/2019/02/22/alphastar.html

 

It's not a perfect limitation but it does exist. 

 

Not really in the right state of mind to give that information due consideration, I'll try to read it later. 

Grammar and spelling is not indicative of intelligence/knowledge.  Not having the same opinion does not always mean lack of understanding.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

On 7/13/2019 at 12:17 AM, mr moose said:

And even then the AI would still have a significant advantage with no muscle/nerve control delay, it's reactions would be virtually instant as a keyboard input. 

 

Unless they can account for the physical motor control lag and mouse input lag etc then the advantage AI has would cloud the difference between biological brains and electronic ones.

And the fact it just sees entire frigging map by default... Is it really so hard to make it work within fog of war and allow it to see only what player itself has uncovered? Apparently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

And the fact it just sees entire frigging map by default... Is it really so hard to make it work within fog of war and allow it to see only what player itself has uncovered? Apparently.

It sees a camera view of the section, so not the whole map, like a normal player, but I suppose with automated hotkeys, it would switch between views quicker - but it does have to work within a limited apm. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×