Navi/Ryzen 3000 launch Megathread

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, CarlBar said:

On the binning thing the two comments, (almost allways paired together), i've been hearing from people are: Server CPU's are allways selected for the maximum efficiency. and: the most efficient silicon is also the silicon that will clock the highest if wound up that far. With the (admittedly rare), specific explanation being that the same things that make a chip power efficient are also the ones that let it clock higher before you have to raise the voltage, and since voltage determines thermal load and low thermal load, (on a given cooling solution), is the key to getting stable higher frequencies that makes the chips with the best power efficiency clock the best.

Much of the server SKUs are running clocks vastly lower than the desktop counterparts, because of that CPUs operating with those specifications will be power efficient.

 

I'll use a Broadwell-E/Broadwell-EP example, first using a Xeon that will require a better than average bin but less than that of the HEDT part.

 

E5-2690v4:

• Cores: 14
• Base: 2.6GHz
• Boost: 3.5GHz
• All core: 3.2GHz
• TDP: 135W
• MSRP: $2090.00

 

6950X:

• Cores: 10
• Base: 3.0GHz
• Boost: 3.5GHz
• Single core boost: 4.0GHz
• All core: 3.4GHz
• AVX: 3.1Ghz
• TDP: 140W
• MSRP: $1723.00

 

Here we have two rather similar CPUs, there are meaningful differences but they both use the same architecture and process node. The 6950X requires a higher bin die than the E5-2690v4 so it is able to achieve 4.0GHz as well as sustain the higher across the board core clocks. The 6950X also has a MSRP reflecting this high bin cost, many Xeons have a lower MRSP than it does.

 

Now a more typical Broadwell-EP that is more widely used and cheaper.

 

E5-2650v4:

• Cores: 12
• Base: 2.2GHz
• Boost: 2.9GHz
• All core: 2.5GHz
• TDP: 105W
• MSRP: $1166.00

This Xeon requires a much lower bin die and cost significantly less due to that, it's still highly efficient and that is due to it's clocks.

 

Now a higher bin Xeon

 

E5-2687Wv4:

• Cores: 12
• Base: 3.0GHz
• Boost: 3.5GHz
• All core: 3.2GHz
• TDP: 160W
• MSRP: $2141.00

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/xeon_e5/e5-2687w_v4 (see for core clock table as it's not in a nice graph like the above ones, only text)

 

The E5-2687Wv4 would require probably the same bin as the 6950X, hard to say as the 6950X has higher all core but 2 less cores but then also has the 4.0GHz single core boost. I'd call it about even.

 

Now the highest possible bin Xeon, the highest of them all (In the E5 range).

 

E5-2699Av4:

• Cores: 22
• Base: 2.4GHz
• Boost: 3.6GHz
• All core: 2.8GHz
• TDP: 145W
• MSRP: $4938.00

This CPU requires the most premium dies to get that many cores with that all core boost in that TDP.

 

The problem with making sweeping statements like server cpus require the highest or best bins is that for about 80% if not more of the Xeon product stack that isn't true. The dies have to pass all the functionality and feature validation test but when it comes to clock performance and efficiency binning most run perfectly fine on much lower bins than is required on HEDT. Low clocks just aren't that demanding on the die and don't require much vcore even on a 'bad' die. 

[porina]

Wont be able to start benching until I get home from work. Anyone else got one yet?

[CiBi]

4 minutes ago, porina said:

Wont be able to start benching until I get home from work. Anyone else got one yet?

You should have taken a day off work mate

[Tonberry]

3 hours ago, realpetertdm said:

I expect every RX 5700 XT card to have at least two fans on it. We might even need four fans lol, looking at the temps

Wait for Sapphire, I'm hoping them to make a triple slot triple fans on it.

 

I'm looking how good Asus will make the 5700XT to run cool with their Strix.

[porina]

13 minutes ago, CiBi said:

You should have taken a day off work mate

I just took 7 days off to play FFXIV Shadowbringers expansion, running out of days  

[leadeater]

13 minutes ago, porina said:

I just took 7 days off to play FFXIV Shadowbringers expansion, running out of days  

Well there is that flu that is going around 

[porina]

I'll be home in ~6 hours at which point I can install and start testing. My first priorities will be Aida64 mem performance, Prime95 benchmark, and I'll throw in a Y-cruncher 1b run to see how that compares. Then I'll see how fast my ram actually runs (target is to get XMP3600 stable for normal use, XMP4000 only for comparative testing), and after attempt OC to see what the limit is on my sample. I don't have best cooling though but still a step up from the stock cooler. The above will allow me to get a quick comparison vs 2600 and 8086k.

 

Then the real work begins as I test various selected FFT sizes to work out optimal configuration for Prime95 like tasks, and from there I can try real work to verify.

 

I also have a power meter attached on the system so I can see 2600 vs 3600 in perf/w in a specific use case.

[realpetertdm]

If anyone wants to see a in-depth 3700x vs 9900k bench then Science Studio's got you covererd:

 

Spoiler

Intel gets rekt in price-to-performance

 

[Taf the Ghost]

34 minutes ago, porina said:

I'll be home in ~6 hours at which point I can install and start testing. My first priorities will be Aida64 mem performance, Prime95 benchmark, and I'll throw in a Y-cruncher 1b run to see how that compares. Then I'll see how fast my ram actually runs (target is to get XMP3600 stable for normal use, XMP4000 only for comparative testing), and after attempt OC to see what the limit is on my sample. I don't have best cooling though but still a step up from the stock cooler. The above will allow me to get a quick comparison vs 2600 and 8086k.

 

Then the real work begins as I test various selected FFT sizes to work out optimal configuration for Prime95 like tasks, and from there I can try real work to verify.

 

I also have a power meter attached on the system so I can see 2600 vs 3600 in perf/w in a specific use case.

You'll probably not run into any thermal issues on whatever cooling you use. Seems like Zen2 is hitting a heat density issue, which is what is limiting OC potential. AMD probably needs to think about some interesting improvements to the IHS.

[looterz]

What do I have to do to convince one of you masochists with a 3900x to compile UE4 in Visual Studio 2019 setup to use 11 cores? Nobody ever posts large codebase benchmarks.

[leadeater]

54 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

You'll probably not run into any thermal issues on whatever cooling you use. Seems like Zen2 is hitting a heat density issue, which is what is limiting OC potential. AMD probably needs to think about some interesting improvements to the IHS.

I wonder if it's related to the on die voltage regulation Zen has, all three architecture revisions seem to have the same behavior in this regard. Intel also removed it after Haswell because of

Quote

This is in contrast to some alternative solutions by Intel which attempted to integrated the voltage regulator (FIVR) on die in Haswell (and consequently removing it in Skylake due to a number of thermal restrictions it created).

 

Could be in a situation where the CPU core logic/transistors are capable of clocking higher but the heat is effecting the voltage regulators, 100% speculating out my ass.

Spoiler

 

Quote

AMD uses a Metal-Insulator-Metal Capacitor (MIMCap) layer between the two upper level metal layers for fast current injection in order to mitigate voltage droop. AMD stated that it covers roughly 45% of the core and a slightly smaller coverage of the L3. In addition to the LDO circuit integrated for each core is a low-latency power supply droop detector that can trigger the digital LDOs to turn on more drivers to counter droops.

 

Quote

A larger number of sensors across the entire die are used to measure many of the CPU states including frequency, voltage, power, and temperature. The data is in turn used for workload characterization, adaptive voltage, frequency tuning, and dynamic clocking. Adaptive voltage and frequency scaling (AVFS), an on-die closed-loop system that adjusts the voltage in real time following real-time measurements based on sensory data collected. This is part of AMD's "Precision Boost" technology offering high granularity of 25 MHz clock increments.

 

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/microarchitectures/zen#Power

 

 

 

 

[cj09beira]

8 hours ago, S w a t s o n said:

Actually, dont leaky chips overclock higher on LN2? Like the ASIC quality check in says in gpu-z.

you would want more leaky than the best ones for air but also not too leaky, asic quality is also not really accurate 

[leadeater]

 

20 hours ago, leadeater said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that the 3600X will actually do all core 4.4GHz, basing that on the 95W TDP being 125W PPT with the IOD using 17W leaving 18W per core. Fully prepared to look like an ass and be wrong. Equally I'm going to predict the 3800X will do 4.4GHz with a decent chance of manual vcore and OC to do 4.5GHz. All assuming the die is capable of having that many cores all at those higher clocks.

 

lol so turns out der8auer had that information already by the time I posted that, at least I was bang on the money . His 3950X tease though, argh!!

 

Edit:

[TVwazhere]

3 hours ago, porina said:

-snip-

Wont be able to start benching until I get home from work. Anyone else got one yet?

Disappointed to see the Wraith Stealth makes a return on the R5's. It's a good cooler for the R3's and the R5 2400, but I totally agree; the Spire is great for the 1600 (3.8ghz @1.25v from my experience) but the Stealth isnt enough for a 2600 and I bet it wont be enough for the 3600, which is why Blue Build 2018 got an upgrade to a cheap air tower (which was perfect)

3 hours ago, porina said:

I just took 7 days off to play FFXIV Shadowbringers expansion, running out of days  

I'm still pushing through it. Weekend was busy being a holiday so I'm maybe a 1/4 of the way through it. I love the Trust system,no need to wait for party members (even though I'm a tank so that doesnt matter)

[porina]

10 minutes ago, TVwazhere said:

Disappointed to see the Wraith Stealth makes a return on the R5's. It's a good cooler for the R3's and the R5 2400, but I totally agree; the Spire is great for the 1600 (3.8ghz @1.25v from my experience) but the Stealth isnt enough for a 2600 and I bet it wont be enough for the 3600, which is why Blue Build 2018 got an upgrade to a cheap air tower (which was perfect)

I already have a Noctua NH-D9L in the 2600 system so that will also be used with the 3600 when swapped in. In pre-testing I saw even the D9L wasn't quite able to maintain full boost, possibly as it is warmer now than when I did the original testing. Too late to change for the side-by-side testing and I'll have to pay more attention to clocks. I'd also have to factor in cost of a cooler for any possible future builds, and the lower-mid range seems to be getting better for the money in recent years.

 

10 minutes ago, TVwazhere said:

I'm still pushing through it. Weekend was busy being a holiday so I'm maybe a 1/4 of the way through it. I love the Trust system,no need to wait for party members (even though I'm a tank so that doesnt matter)

It took me about 3 solid days to do the MSQ, watching cutscenes in full, and there are a lot of them! Just levelled dancer as my 2nd job to 80 last night and will probably switch to that from bard. Will decide after trying out new machinist too. As caution, people have noted a big limitation in the trust system. It seems to be unrestricted until you complete MSQ, then you have to level them up to unlock dungeons. That's 12 runs of 71 dungeon to unlock the 73, per NPC used. Ouch! Maybe usable if you want to level all classes in parallel, but if you want to do them one at a time like me, you're stuck with the 71 for a long time. Duty finder queues as DPS are typically 20 mins. To swing vaguely back on topic, at least it didn't clash with Zen 2 launch directly.

[TVwazhere]

4 minutes ago, porina said:

at least it didn't clash with Zen 2 launch directly.

All the hardcore gaming is out of the way for hardware testing!

5 minutes ago, porina said:

 the lower-mid range seems to be getting better for the money in recent years.

Strong recommendations go to Arctic Freezer 33/34 Esports ONE or the Hyper 212 Black. Cryorig H7's are experiencing a huge price inflation right now, or I'd recommend that too based on personal experience.

[Chett_Manly]

This is really feeling like a bullshit Paper Launch. Cannot get a 3900x off Amazon 2 days later. How many did they even get to Amazon? Doesn't show up in search, have to find a product link, and that just says unavailable, not even back-ordered. They got the motherboards, but no CPU. WTF AMD.

 

Here I am trying to toss my money at them, and the product is nowhere to be found.

[79wjd]

1 hour ago, cj09beira said:

you would want more leaky than the best ones for air but also not too leaky, asic quality is also not really accurate 

Wait, but why would that affect LN2 and traditional cooling differently?

[porina]

1 hour ago, TVwazhere said:

All the hardcore gaming is out of the way for hardware testing!

Strong recommendations go to Arctic Freezer 33/34 Esports ONE or the Hyper 212 Black. Cryorig H7's are experiencing a huge price inflation right now, or I'd recommend that too based on personal experience.

Don't know if it is better or worse than the D9L but I have the 34 Duo (£30) also. There isn't a significant price difference between that and the One (£28). Cryorig availability has never been good where I am so I never really considered them, although I do see it on Amazon now at £38.

 

Actually I have a concern with the Arctic Freezer series, the contact footprint is rather small. I don't think this is a problem for traditional single die centred under it, but with the off centre arrangement on Zen 2 could we get into a similar situation as when Threadripper came out?

20 minutes ago, Chett_Manly said:

This is really feeling like a bullshit Paper Launch.

I understand the frustration. Has anyone even seen any 8 core model in stock? In the UK, the 3600 is generally available, and I saw one supplier showing stock of the 3600X. I've not seen the 8 core models ever showing as in stock, but don't know if I blinked and missed it, or if they were never there at all.

[CiBi]

2 minutes ago, porina said:

Don't know if it is better or worse than the D9L but I have the 34 Duo (£30) also. There isn't a significant price difference between that and the One (£28). Cryorig availability has never been good where I am so I never really considered them, although I do see it on Amazon now at £38.

 

Actually I have a concern with the Arctic Freezer series, the contact footprint is rather small. I don't think this is a problem for traditional single die centred under it, but with the off centre arrangement on Zen 2 could we get into a similar situation as when Threadripper came out?

I understand the frustration. Has anyone even seen any 8 core model in stock? In the UK, the 3600 is generally available, and I saw one supplier showing stock of the 3600X. I've not seen the 8 core models ever showing as in stock, but don't know if I blinked and missed it, or if they were never there at all.

I've seen 3700X in stock in Belgium

[TVwazhere]

2 minutes ago, porina said:

Actually I have a concern with the Arctic Freezer series, the contact footprint is rather small. I don't think this is a problem for traditional single die centred under it, but with the off centre arrangement on Zen 2 could we get into a similar situation as when Threadripper came out?

I think that problem with thread ripper was amplified by the sheer size of the IHS and where the CPU dies were located underneath it compared to non TR4 CPU coolers.. I think if there is an issue with Zen 2, it will be less noticeable, if not negligible. 

4 minutes ago, porina said:

Has anyone even seen any 8 core model in stock? In the UK, the 3600 is generally available, and I saw one supplier showing stock of the 3600X. I've not seen the 8 core models ever showing as in stock, but don't know if I blinked and missed it, or if they were never there at all.

I've seen a few people post about already having them, and others saying how they were sold out minutes after opening a Micro center, so I think it's just a supply issue being the CPU's are being bought so fast they cant keep them on the shelves. 

[Kenpachi1985]

51 minutes ago, porina said:

Don't know if it is better or worse than the D9L but I have the 34 Duo (£30) also. There isn't a significant price difference between that and the One (£28). Cryorig availability has never been good where I am so I never really considered them, although I do see it on Amazon now at £38.

 

Actually I have a concern with the Arctic Freezer series, the contact footprint is rather small. I don't think this is a problem for traditional single die centred under it, but with the off centre arrangement on Zen 2 could we get into a similar situation as when Threadripper came out?

I understand the frustration. Has anyone even seen any 8 core model in stock? In the UK, the 3600 is generally available, and I saw one supplier showing stock of the 3600X. I've not seen the 8 core models ever showing as in stock, but don't know if I blinked and missed it, or if they were never there at all.

alternate germany has 3800X ready to send out in 6 days, mindfactory says the 3800X should arrive at their store tomorrow.

[dfsdfgfkjsefoiqzemnd]

59 minutes ago, CiBi said:

I've seen 3700X in stock in Belgium

Can confirm.  3600, 3600X, 3700X and 3900X are in stock at my local store.  Only the 3800 is still listed as "preorder".

[porina]

13 minutes ago, Kenpachi1985 said:

alternate germany has 3800X ready to send out in 6 days, mindfactory says the 3800X should arrive at their store tomorrow.

Many UK stores are saying "stock due today" but I'm only interested in any who currently have stock. Estimates can be inaccurate. 6 days is forever.

2 minutes ago, Captain Chaos said:

Can confirm.  3600, 3600X, 3700X and 3900X are in stock at my local store.  Only the 3800 is still listed as "preorder".

Which country?

 

I just had a look at a few UK places, same situation as earlier. I see 3600 generally available, and one place with 3600X.

[Marinatall_Ironside]

I've watched some of the reviews about the Ryzen 3000 CPUs. I definitely plan on upgrading my PC to the Ryzen 3000 series some time in September/October when the Ryzen 9 3950X comes out. Glad I waited for as long as I did!

 

The motherboards on the other hand... they are now really, really expensive. I originally wanted to get the Asus ROG Crosshair VIII Formula, but that is a USD $699 motherboard, when the ROG Crosshair VIII Hero (Wi-Fi) is only USDD $379, and both are functionally identical. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why these high-end boards are as expensive as they are. The Gigabyte X570 Aorus Xtreme (literally the most extreme board on the market right now), and the MSI MEG X570 GODLIKE sit in the USD $699 range as well. Worst offender in my opinion is definitely the ROG Crosshair VIII Formula, since that's only one tier above the Hero. Its Intel equivalent is only USD $450. If Asus wanted to justify the USD $699 premium for an AMD X570 motherboard, they should have released the ROG Crosshair VIII Extreme instead.

 

I get that these motherboards are not cheap at all due to the much better build quality, much better VRM layout and components, and full PCIe 4.0 support, but some of these boards (especially the Asus ones) are just ridiculously expensive for only one tier up in the product stack when that one board below it is almost 100% less.