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Tech myth debunk thread

Spotty

This thread is for TECHNOLOGY related myths only. The LTT forum is not the place for conspiracy theories about politicians and aliens. 

If the thread goes off topic again it will be locked and warnings may be issued.

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6 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

Considering the industry seems to define "backing up" as storing a copy of the data in a separate data store to cover the scenarios of data loss, data corruption, and needing to revert to an earlier state, and RAID only covers one of those scenarios, I don't count RAID as a data backup solution. The connotations of backing I'm also getting is that one believes their data at some point in time is worth saving off. So I can make a copy of what I want at that point in time and shuffle it elsewhere so it can be used in the event that data is desired again.

 

Even if you don't have a problem with malware or accidentally deletion, someone else may. Telling them all they need is RAID 1 to keep their data safe, they don't perform a backup solution (as defined above), and they somehow get hit with a problem that destroys their data, well, so much for RAID 1 keeping their data safe.

I never said that people should be using raid only for backups. Im not encouraging anyone to do anything.

 

All im saying if that raid is a backup. If one drive fails you raid will protect your data. 

 

So again. Since everyone knows the raid saves data in case of drive failure....its 100% a backup.

 

Not the only backup you need or should use. But factually it is a type of backup. Nothing you have said has shown the raid isnt a backup for drive failures.

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1 hour ago, RonnieOP said:

Your basically splitting hairs on what should be defined as a back up.

No , I'm not.

 

RAID isn't a backup, like I said, it's redundancy.

 

RAID won't protect you form viruses, malwares or cryptolockers, etc.

RAID won't protect you form mistakes (people DO delete files by accident).

RAID won't protect you from data corruption.

 

All of the above will replicate the problem to all drives in the RAID.

 

 

I have a backup solution, the first step is to copy the files on a RAID array (the array is part of my backup system, but the drives where the data is mirrored is NOT a backup, it's a Fail-Safe in case of drive failure), the second step is to do an incrememtal cloud backup, last step is to copy only specific "life-or-death" types of files to 2 different off-site and cloud storage.


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25 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Nothing you have said has shown the raid isnt a backup for drive failures.

I never argued that anyway.

 

The point I'm arguing is RAID doesn't count as a data back up method, which again, I feel is defined considering what the industry thinks is a copy of data to cover the events of data loss, data corruption, and needing to restore data to a previous version if needed.

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5 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

No , I'm not.

 

RAID isn't a backup, like I said, it's redundancy.

 

RAID won't protect you form viruses, malwares or cryptolockers, etc.

RAID won't protect you form mistakes (people DO delete files by accident).

RAID won't protect you from data corruption.

 

All of the above will replicate the problem to all drives in the RAID.

 

 

I have a backup solution, the first step is to copy the files on a RAID array (the array is part of my backup system, but the drives where the data is mirrored is NOT a backup, it's a Fail-Safe in case of drive failure), the second step is to do an incrememtal cloud backup, last step is to copy only specific "life-or-death" types of files to 2 different off-site and cloud storage.

I never said RAID would protect you from everything.

 

Raid backs up your data in case of a drive failure. Making it a type of backup. Nobody is claiming its the best type of backup that will cover all scenarios. 

 

But raid is still a type of backup. Theres literally no way to deny that raid is a type of backup.

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7 minutes ago, Mira Yurizaki said:

I never argued that anyway.

 

The point I'm arguing is RAID doesn't count as a data back up method, which again, I feel is defined considering what the industry thinks is a copy of data to cover the events of data loss, data corruption, and needing to restore data to a previous version if needed.

This discussion started when someone said raid being a backup was a myth. Thats what im commenting on. Raid is a backup. Its a backup in case a drive fails. its not a back up for virus issue or deletion. but its still a type of backup.

 

So raid being a backup type is not a myth.

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4 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

This discussion started when someone said raid being a backup was a myth. Thats what im commenting on. Raid is a backup. Its a backup in case a drive fails. its not a back up for virus issue or deletion. but its still a type of backup.

 

So raid being a backup type is not a myth.

At this point we're arguing semantics and what's the common lexical usage of the term "backup"

 

So here, I'll throw you a bone. Yes RAID is a type of backup method, a hardware failure backup method. But also RAID is not a type of backup method, a data backup method.

 

Hm. It can and can't be at the same time 🤔

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3 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

Raid is a backup for drive failures. Thus its a backup.

 

Now its not a suitable back up for all situations. I dont think anyone is claiming that.

 

But its still a type of back up.  Not sure how someone could factually argue against that.

You are playing a semantics game here. Using your argument, having data in three, separate places could be called redundancy. Most people do not understand the difference between the terms backup and redundancy and your "definition" just adds to the confusion.


Jeannie

 

As long as anyone is oppressed, no one will be safe and free.

One has to be proactive, not reactive, to ensure the safety of one's data so backup your data! And RAID is NOT a backup!

 

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34 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

You are playing a semantics game here. Using your argument, having data in three, separate places could be called redundancy. Most people do not understand the difference between the terms backup and redundancy and your "definition" just adds to the confusion.

My definition of backup is the one in the dictionary.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/backup

 

Not sure how me using the literal definition of backup is adding to confusion.

If anything. you changing the definition of backup would be confusing to people.

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40 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

But raid is still a type of backup. Theres literally no way to deny that raid is a type of backup.

You said nobody stated reasons as to why RAID isn't a backup, I stated a few of them and you're completely dismissing my points ... because reasons?

 

As I said, RAID isn't a backup solution, like at all. It's a redundancy. If a drives fails you can quickly get back to to work. It's completely different.

 

That's why it's a myth ; RAID ≠ backup.

 

1 minute ago, RonnieOP said:

My definition of backup is the one in the dictionary.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/backup

 

Not sure how me using the literal definition of backup is adding to confusion.

If anything. you changing the definition of backup would be confusing to people.

Again, RAID = Redundant Array of Independent Disks

 

If YOU are using disks in RAID as a backup, that's fine, but it's NOT a backup solution. It's redundancy, in case the drive fails.

 

Also, drive failure is one possible cause of data corruption, a backup is supposed to protect you from that, a RAID array doesn't because even if it has safe guards against data corruption, it's not a backup solution.

 

You can argue all you want, it's still won't change that fact.


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1 minute ago, wkdpaul said:

It's a redundancy.

Any form of backup is a redundancy.

 

2 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

If a drives fails you can quickly get back to to work. It's completely different.

Which would constitute a form of local backup.


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22 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

My definition of backup is the one in the dictionary.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/backup

 

Not sure how me using the literal definition of backup is adding to confusion.

If anything. you changing the definition of backup would be confusing to people.

Actually, you are the one changing the definitions.

 

8 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Any form of backup is a redundancy.

 

Which would constitute a form of local backup.

You are also playing a semantics game.

 

Frankly, I'm tired of arguing with people whose minds are closed so I'll just close with some links to sites that explain the difference between redundancy and backups and why redundancy is not a backup. If you two continue to choose to ignore what experts have said, well, good luck, you'll need it.

 

https://www.howtogeek.com/346907/backups-vs.-redundancy-what’s-the-difference/

https://www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/5958-raid-is-not-a-backup-system

https://blog.macrium.com/raid-is-not-backup-abaf74974fea

http://www.petemarovichimages.com/2013/11/24/never-use-a-raid-as-your-backup-system/

https://serverfault.com/questions/2888/why-is-raid-not-a-backup

https://blog.storagecraft.com/5-reasons-raid-not-backup/

 

 


Jeannie

 

As long as anyone is oppressed, no one will be safe and free.

One has to be proactive, not reactive, to ensure the safety of one's data so backup your data! And RAID is NOT a backup!

 

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25 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

My definition of backup is the one in the dictionary.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/backup

 

Not sure how me using the literal definition of backup is adding to confusion.

If anything. you changing the definition of backup would be confusing to people.

 

I don't think your argument works, not even semantically.    As most raid arrays do not copy the data to anywhere and seeing as "copy" is an inescapable defining condition of "backup" it does not work.     Being able to recreate the data on one drive in an array of drives designed to do so using an algorithm is not the same as making a copy of data.   The only thing a raid and a back up have in common is they both hold data.   Using that common component to insinuate they are the same thing is erroneous.

 


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1 minute ago, mr moose said:

I don't think your argument works, not even semantically. 

Arguing pure semantics, RAID 1 is a local backup. Any form of backup is redundant, and every redundancy is a backup, as in this context, they're synonyms.

 

Arguing connotation (outside a microcosm of techies), RAID 1 is a local backup.

 

RAID 1 is a setup where data is cloned between two drives, so that they act as reserves to each other if one fails.

 

You can say RAID 1 is not a robust or comprehensive backup. That it only protects from drive failure. But it is a backup. Trying to redefine the word because you don't like the idea of RAID as a backup (or don't understand how RAID can be an effective piece of a comprehensive backup system) isn't going to change anything, as the term "backup" has well understood meaning in many other areas of life. The only thing you're really doing is creating unnecessary confusion and forcing a divide that isn't there.


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On 6/28/2019 at 5:53 PM, Boinbo said:

Debunking the myth water-cooling is better, should have posted that first

All in one water coolers arent better then a good air cooler.

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1 hour ago, wkdpaul said:

DO delete files by accident

i did once accidentally delete a file from my back up drive one, and it was large folder so it didnt even go to recycle, lost some pictures, 

but i keep a one drive back up of all my pictures and other memories so i didnt lose much 


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21 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Arguing pure semantics, RAID 1 is a local backup. Any form of backup is redundant, and every redundancy is a backup, as in this context, they're synonyms.

 

Arguing connotation (outside a microcosm of techies), RAID 1 is a local backup.

 

RAID 1 is a setup where data is cloned between two drives, so that they act as reserves to each other if one fails.

 

You can say RAID 1 is not a robust or comprehensive backup. That it only protects from drive failure. But it is a backup. Trying to redefine the word because you don't like the idea of RAID as a backup (or don't understand how RAID can be an effective piece of a comprehensive backup system) isn't going to change anything, as the term "backup" has well understood meaning in many other areas of life. The only thing you're really doing is creating unnecessary confusion and forcing a divide that isn't there.

Obviously, you did not read any of the sites I linked.


Jeannie

 

As long as anyone is oppressed, no one will be safe and free.

One has to be proactive, not reactive, to ensure the safety of one's data so backup your data! And RAID is NOT a backup!

 

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Just now, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Obviously, you did not read any of the sites I linked.

Why waste my time?


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Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

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The blood is on your hands!

 

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6 hours ago, The Torrent said:

what about when applications are run at weird scales like 150 percent? As they sometimes seem blurry. For example, a 17inch laptop i used to have 1440p display would sometimes display some burry things which werent used to 1440p and 150 percent scaling.Whats going on then?

See that's the thing, I don't have the monitor's doing the scaling, it's Windows doing the scaling (via the GPU). So in theory anything run within the 4K desktop has the HiDPI scaling, and that just then gets scaled down to the cloned screen.

 

This is just one of "did you this is a thing" that I've been doing since Win98. Back in Win98 I used to do something on AMD cards that would create a virtual desktop without any other software. So the screen would be like 1024x768 but the actual desktop area was 1920x1080. Moving the mouse cursor to the edge of the desktop would move the virtual desktop. I haven't bothered with it for years.

 

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2 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Arguing pure semantics, RAID 1 is a local backup. Any form of backup is redundant, and every redundancy is a backup, as in this context, they're synonyms.

 

 

It's not a backup. A backup has the ability to be restored, to an earlier time, like before you accidentally rm -rf. rm -rf your raid array and it's erased and unrecoverable, regardless of what RAID mode you used.

 

At best, RAID, when you have at least 5 drives, gives you redundancy in case a drive fails, so you can keep on working until you replace the drive. It's a productivity solution. If you have 5 independent drives with different data on them, and you accidentally kick the desktop and that kills one of the drives, you're not recovering that, where as a striped RAID array would. As most desktops don't have a BBU, most desktop raid is worthless without a UPS.

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1 minute ago, Kisai said:

It's not a backup.

1 minute ago, Kisai said:

At best, RAID, when you have at least 5 drives, gives you redundancy in case a drive fails

These two statements contradict each other.

 

As I've said before:

3 hours ago, Drak3 said:

RAID 1 is a setup where data is cloned between two drives, so that they act as reserves to each other if one fails.

 

You can say RAID 1 is not a robust or comprehensive backup. That it only protects from drive failure. But it is a backup. Trying to redefine the word because you don't like the idea of RAID as a backup (or don't understand how RAID can be an effective piece of a comprehensive backup system) isn't going to change anything, as the term "backup" has well understood meaning in many other areas of life. The only thing you're really doing is creating unnecessary confusion and forcing a divide that isn't there.

3 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Any form of backup is redundant, and every redundancy is a backup, as in this context, they're synonyms.

 

So far, you and three other guys have screeched "RAID's not a backup!" with no substantive arguments. Just lame excuses and """expert""" opinions (that are no more valid than asking random people on the street).

But by actual definition, it is. If we ignore the microcosm of arrogant elitists, connotation is that RAID 1 is a type of backup. And one of the smartest members of the forum already made the distinction you're to ignorant to realize: backup does not inherently and exclusively apply to remote data backup.


Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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4 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

These two statements contradict each other.

 

As I've said before:

 

So far, you and three other guys have screeched "RAID's not a backup!" with no substantive arguments. Just lame excuses and """expert""" opinions (that are no more valid than asking random people on the street).

But by actual definition, it is. If we ignore the microcosm of arrogant elitists, connotation is that RAID 1 is a type of backup. And one of the smartest members of the forum already made the distinction you're to ignorant to realize: backup does not inherently and exclusively apply to remote data backup.

You're really digging in your heels there. OK. do this. Eject one of your RAID drives and then format the system. Tell me how that goes for you.

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Just now, Kisai said:

You're really digging in your heels there. OK. do this. Eject one of your RAID drives and then format the system. Tell me how that goes for you.

I don't run RAID.

 

Nor is that the type of system failure RAID 1 covers. It's a backup system that covers a disk failure. I've said that, multiple times.


Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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Just now, Drak3 said:

I don't run RAID.

 

Nor is that the type of system failure RAID 1 covers. It's a backup system that covers a disk failure. I've said that, multiple times.

So you're trying to tell people who operate RAID systems that RAID is a back up, when clearly, RAID is not a backup because the office I do work at has several RAID systems and yet has a Tape backup system because clearly whoever is responsible for IT in the mult-billion dollar corporation knows RAID is not a backup. They have a dude come in every week to rotate the backup tapes and take them to some secure facility. 

 

RAID is not a backup, and pretending it is, is going to cost such naive people a lot of time and money when they lose everything.

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3 minutes ago, Kisai said:

yet has a Tape backup system because clearly whoever is responsible for IT in the mult-billion dollar corporation knows RAID is not a backup.

ouch that is taking a long long leep my friend.

 

tape is like so old, so so old

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