Intel used prices are awful, can Zen save us?

[Fasauceome]

Since my brother needs an upgrade to his i5 but it's not a pressing matter, I've been on the prowl for a deal on an i7 for his B250 motherboard. Unfortunately, everyone on eBay seems to be willing to pay top dollar for old Intel parts. That was neat back when I sold my 4790K for $300, but that was a gold sample so I felt like the premium cost was sensible since it was for an enthusiast setup. However, the pricing on the i7 6700 and 7700 is outrageous:

 

And when you go to the "completed listings" tab to see what they're actually selling for, it's the same story, you won't find an i7 from 1151 sold under $200 if it works properly.

 

My question is, can Zen 2 turn this around? To this point, Kaby lake and Skylake i7s have had the privilege of maintaining very competitive performance with AMD's offerings despite their age, but with Zen 2's gargantuan performance increase, and the low prices along with them, suddenly it's either $200 for a locked quad core from a few years ago or an unlocked 6 core with a suite of modern features. Do you think the average PC part consumer will catch on and stop spending outrageous cash on outdated hardware?

[Boinbo]

I think so. The average PC builder is generally up to date, and so I would believe they would go for the more expensive chip, not by a lot because AMD has nice pricing might I add, and reap the benefits, while also future proofing their system a lot more.

[Fasauceome]

8 minutes ago, Boinbo said:

I think so. The average PC builder is generally up to date, and so I would believe they would go for the more expensive chip, not by a lot because AMD has nice pricing might I add, and reap the benefits, while also future proofing their system a lot more.

I don't know if it's really the average PC builder buying from eBay though, not like us on the forum. You used to be able to get an i5 8600k for like $250 and the i5 9600k is $220 right now, both of those not only beat the 7700k and 6700k in pricing but also performance, both single and multithreaded. A 9400F is a mere $149 so there's no reason to put it against a $200 i7 6700 or $250 i7 7700. I really do think that the flood of secondhand Ryzen processors to eBay will change a lot, but I don't know if it'll change the fact that the people buying these processors just don't know what it is they're buying.

[Dedayog]

Are they truly outdated tho?

 

With how many people pair 1080Ti's with 4690K's... and have stellar gaming performance or how 7700K's still rock a gaming and will for years...

 

It's not always about new and more powerful, a lot of times it's about how viable older parts STILL are.

 

Zen will impact his, pushing older components further back.  Will they kill the old 4c/8t stuff? Not yet, until we move past their own viability.

[Boinbo]

Just now, fasauceome said:

I don't know if it's really the average PC builder buying from eBay though, not like us on the forum. You used to be able to get an i5 8600k for like $250 and the i5 9600k is $220 right now, both of those not only beat the 7700k and 6700k in pricing but also performance, both single and multithreaded. A 9400F is a mere $149 so there's no reason to put it against a $200 i7 6700 or $250 i7 7700. I really do think that the flood of secondhand Ryzen processors to eBay will change a lot, but I don't know if it'll change the fact that the people buying these processors just don't know what it is they're buying.

So your saying that the average PC builder will be buying a processor based of surface level analysis? Like:

Intel! Wow! I should get it!

It's expensive? Well, that must mean it'll look good.

Is that what you mean? Because that's more what a beginning PC builder would do..

[Boinbo]

1 minute ago, jstudrawa said:

Are they truly outdated tho?

 

With how many people pair 1080Ti's with 4690K's... and have stellar gaming performance or how 7700K's still rock a gaming and will for years...

 

It's not always about new and more powerful, a lot of times it's about how viable older parts STILL are.

 

Zen will impact his, pushing older components further back.  Will they kill the old 4c/8t stuff? Not yet, until we move past their own viability.

But wha'tt's the point of spending $250 on an i7 7700, when newer cheaper CPUs beat it anyways?

[Fasauceome]

1 minute ago, jstudrawa said:

Are they truly outdated tho?

 

With how many people pair 1080Ti's with 4690K's... and have stellar gaming performance or how 7700K's still rock a gaming and will for years...

 

It's not always about new and more powerful, a lot of times it's about how viable older parts STILL are.

 

Zen will impact his, pushing older components further back.  Will they kill the old 4c/8t stuff? Not yet, until we move past their own viability.

Despite that, it's still paying more for less, that's my hangup. Not that the processor is bad, but it's more expensive than it's worth.

[Dedayog]

5 minutes ago, Boinbo said:

But wha'tt's the point of spending $250 on an i7 7700, when newer cheaper CPUs beat it anyways?

A 7700K is a potential drop in upgrade for some rather than a full ecosystem change.  Besides, 7700K is still a gaming powerhouse.  Single core performance is STILL a gaming mark, and why the 8700K isn't dead when the 9900K came out.

 

There's more to this than just this CPU beats that CPU.  

[Boinbo]

1 minute ago, jstudrawa said:

A 7700K is a potential drop in upgrade for some rather than a full ecosystem change.  Besides, 7700K is still a gaming powerhouse.  Single core performance is STILL a gaming mark, and why the 8700K isn't dead when the 9900K came out.

 

There's more to this than just this CPU beats that CPU.  

Yes, there's also price. Why pay more for less like @fasauceome said, and for outdated system, when you can pay less for more now, and have it future proofed?

[Fasauceome]

3 minutes ago, jstudrawa said:

A 7700K is a potential drop in upgrade for some rather than a full ecosystem change.  Besides, 7700K is still a gaming powerhouse.  Single core performance is STILL a gaming mark, and why the 8700K isn't dead when the 9900K came out.

 

There's more to this than just this CPU beats that CPU.  

yeah it's convenient but that convenience comes at a price increase of some 40% or more, some of the completed listings for the 7700k come in above $400. That fact that people are willing to pay so much to avoid the work of popping in a new motherboard makes me wonder if that's actually what they're buying it for, and whether or not your average Skylake/Kaby lake buyer even knows what's out there on the new market.

[Dedayog]

Just now, Boinbo said:

Yes, there's also price. Why pay more for less like @fasauceome said, and for outdated system, when you can pay less for more now, and have it future proofed?

There is no such thing as future proofing, ever.

 

Also, paying more for less is a human trait.  Look at the psychology of economics and marketing, value is 100% subjective to the buyer and impacted by so much more than pure performance.

 

Also, AMD hasn't inspired confidence in a lot of buyers outside the enthusiast market.  I mean, I would wager that of the nearest 10 people around you, only you know about Ryzen 2.  It's not on the average person's radar, and the Intel Inside sticker carries a LOT of weight with regular people.

 

All that said, chips like the 7700K still truly perform incredibly well for their age and even when put up against the newest stuff do really well.  What Ryzen chips beats it in gaming?

 

[TechyBen]

16 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

yeah it's convenient but that convenience comes at a price increase of some 40% or more, some of the completed listings for the 7700k come in above $400. That fact that people are willing to pay so much to avoid the work of popping in a new motherboard makes me wonder if that's actually what they're buying it for, and whether or not your average Skylake/Kaby lake buyer even knows what's out there on the new market.

Tulips. I don't think they are selling that high because the use/utility value. But because it's a good stock to hold onto and let go up in price (see RAM pricing also).

Ebay/Amazon does the same with RAM pricing. Lots of bulk stock buying, then upping/doubling of prices, even on second hand stock.

 

Motherboards also seem to do the same. Graphics cards balance out on performance/price (NVidia cost a bit more, but IMO the power draw target of them often make it worth it for the form factor/PSU upgrades, while AMD are fine if PSU wattage is not a concern).

 

I'm in the same boat, I only ever pay £125 or less for a CPU. I have a 3470(s for my power target). I've not upgraded it, as *anything* intel that is more powerful is like £200 minimum, and more for a motherboard+DDR4 ram. I'd be happy buying a whole new system, but why bother if I'm getting no performance increase, for £500 or more second hand, or £1000 new. So I'm waiting it out, and getting an AMD possibly, or if the intel prices drop enough, a nice FAST i5... hopefully for less than £500 second hand, or £1000 new.

 

Prices have been rising not falling for the same performance.

[porina]

I have spare Z170 boards and occasionally I think about filling them up until I see the CPU pricing. So very much agree it still seems to be hanging high. I guess part of the problem are the people who bought a low end CPU for the platform with the intent of upgrading later. Those with high end aren't likely to get rid of them as there is nothing higher up to move to so the chain stalls a bit. I got a bit creative and found a cheap system with a 6700T in it. The lower power actually helps me as it was going into an ITX box with limited cooling. There are also some lower cost 6700k ES around, but the ebay listings suggest they might not work on "newer" BIOS. Did Intel drop a lock in?

 

I did manage to get a i7 5775C at some cost, but not totally insane cost. This was unique and rare enough I thought it worth it.

 

It is a bit different in the HEDT space though. I picked up a 5930k for not a lot as I might use the PCIe lanes for crossfire later, replacing my 5820k which are going really cheap now. In this area the opposite I think is true, there are more CPUs around than mobos for them to go in.

[Fasauceome]

1 minute ago, porina said:

There are also some lower cost 6700k ES around, but the ebay listings suggest they might not work on "newer" BIOS. Did Intel drop a lock in?

The ES models are listed as "modded Xeons" so I believe there's a problem with the microcode that locks them into use with their respective generation's chipset, but the clocks are always so low anyways I don't see them being much use for a gaming PC.

3 minutes ago, porina said:

It is a bit different in the HEDT space though. I picked up a 5930k for not a lot as I might use the PCIe lanes for crossfire later, replacing my 5820k which are going really cheap now. In this area the opposite I think is true, there are more CPUs around than mobos for them to go in.

I always found that interesting, but I think it's due to the fact that more HEDT compatible Xeons hit the market every day, last year a boom of X99 compatible chips were made available due to the upgrade cycle of big companies with servers and that changed pricing a ton. The 6950X went from $1000 to like $800 now it's like $650-700

[porina]

7 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

The ES models are listed as "modded Xeons" so I believe there's a problem with the microcode that locks them into use with their respective generation's chipset, but the clocks are always so low anyways I don't see them being much use for a gaming PC.

I hadn't spotted the "modded Xeon" part, but did see the lower clock which is not unusual for ES parts. It could still be an upgrade for those with i3 of the same generation.

 

7 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

I always found that interesting, but I think it's due to the fact that more HEDT compatible Xeons hit the market every day, last year a boom of X99 compatible chips were made available due to the upgrade cycle of big companies with servers and that changed pricing a ton. The 6950X went from $1000 to like $800 now it's like $650-700

Good point, I overlooked the Xeon side even thought I have an E5-2683v3 ES on X99. It doesn't turbo as much as a retail CPU but still eats through threaded work. I just had a look on my local ebay. It only seems the lower Haswell-E is practically being given away. The top CPU is still holding up, as are the Broadwell-E series.

 

Oh, have a look at i3 7350k pricing. Insane... I wanted one purely to torture with extreme overclocking, but not at current asking prices. I really hope that undergoes an adjustment, but it is a niche enough CPU I might be competing against other overclockers to get them. I was also wondering if Kaby Lake-X might be another one to go cheap, but not if you want the i7 version.

[Fasauceome]

14 minutes ago, porina said:

Oh, have a look at i3 7350k pricing. Insane... I wanted one purely to torture with extreme overclocking, but not at current asking prices. I really hope that undergoes an adjustment, but it is a niche enough CPU I might be competing against other overclockers to get them

actually I just nabbed a $110 i5 6600 to replace my brother's 7400, what a steal. I can sell the 7400 for like $150 or something. The pricing does suck so I have to check every day for stuff like that, hopefully one day I'll spot an i7.

[porina]

5 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

The pricing does suck so I have to check every day for stuff like that, hopefully one day I'll spot an i7.

Roughly speaking I have 3 different needs for CPUs: gaming, competitive overclocking, and "compute" (prime number finding). Zen 2 will likely overtake Intel as the dedicated CPU for the 3rd one, and I could sell on many of my Intel systems for what they'll be worth if that is proved. Probably too niche of an interest to affect the overall used market though, but Zen 2 may have similar impact in other uses.

[Mick Naughty]

Are those prices actually bad?

[Fasauceome]

1 minute ago, Mick Naughty said:

Are those prices actually bad?

If I truly needed to upgrade my brother's system, a new motherboard would go in with a current gen Intel or Ryzen part. Spending more money for last gen parts that are less capable? Pretty bad in my opinion. 

 

Granted it is only my opinion, people seem to be fine paying these prices, but what I'm getting at is I only see the pricing as bad since I know better, and perhaps most people looking for these processors specifically don't 

[Mick Naughty]

1 minute ago, fasauceome said:

If I truly needed to upgrade my brother's system, a new motherboard would go in with a current gen Intel or Ryzen part. Spending more money for last gen parts that are less capable? Pretty bad in my opinion. 

 

Granted it is only my opinion, people seem to be fine paying these prices, but what I'm getting at is I only see the pricing as bad since I know better, and perhaps most people looking for these processors specifically don't 

Sold my 4790k for $200 last month. Took awhile but worth it. Not gonna play the waiting game for better hardware around the corner. Should have payed for a 9700k board but the 8700k is worlds better than the 4th gen stuff so it was worth the premium I guess. 

 

Wait or pay, seems like the only choices. 

[Biggerboot]

It's mainly a supply and demand thing, that's what drives the asking prices in the used market.  The 7700k is the best chip you can put on z170/270 boards.  People will pay a premium to upgrade their cpu without changing the entire system, and there's not really enough people selling their 7700k to drive prices down.  To say whether it's worth it or not is subjective, but it's not soley based on performance.  This has been the general pattern with intel for a while.

 

It's AMD's AM4 longevity that causes older gen zen prices to fall.  There's also just more AMD stock to go around than intel right now.

[Fasauceome]

31 minutes ago, Mick Naughty said:

Sold my 4790k for $200 last month. Took awhile but worth it. Not gonna play the waiting game for better hardware around the corner. Should have payed for a 9700k board but the 8700k is worlds better than the 4th gen stuff so it was worth the premium I guess. 

 

Wait or pay, seems like the only choices. 

That's kinda what I mean though I don't really have to wait. There's better for less out there.

[asand1]

11 hours ago, fasauceome said:

If I truly needed to upgrade my brother's system, a new motherboard would go in with a current gen Intel or Ryzen part. Spending more money for last gen parts that are less capable? Pretty bad in my opinion. 

 

Granted it is only my opinion, people seem to be fine paying these prices, but what I'm getting at is I only see the pricing as bad since I know better, and perhaps most people looking for these processors specifically don't 

You say you know better, but it really is a matter of opinion. The way I see it $300 for a used i7 would be much cheaper than a new i7+Mobo+RAM.

 

Now starting from scratch without an existing Mobo and ram then yes, you are right. Honestly I would never upgrade a 3 year old system. If it was good enough 3 years ago it's good enough now. Maybe after 5 years. I've learned to go baller from the beginning and get more life per$.

[Fasauceome]

10 minutes ago, asand1 said:

You say you know better, but it really is a matter of opinion. The way I see it $300 for a used i7 would be much cheaper than a new i7+Mobo+RAM.

If you're on eBay, you probably already have the idea to sell your current stuff to the secondhand market to recoup the cost. Anything I've replaced of my own parts I've sold, and I've never known someone to do a platform upgrade and just toss the parts. 

[asand1]

I have bought numerous CPUs to upgrade used systems, and no I don't sell on eBay. You are most likely an outlier.