Toto, I don't think we're in China anymore - US companies adopting social credit score system

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, thedude4bides said:

Please don’t mistake wit for insults.  

yeah right. 

[kokakolia]

10 hours ago, mr moose said:

There are two problems with your premise:

 

1. you seem to think all risks are equal.

2. you are under the impression those rewards are free and don't cost you somewhere else.

 

Nothing is free.

3. He assumes that anyone can get the same rewards as him with the same amount of effort. The country is a factor. Canadian credit cards absolutely suck. American credit cards are much better. The level of disposable income matters. Job stability matters. 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, kokakolia said:

3. He assumes that anyone can get the same rewards as him with the same amount of effort. The country is a factor. Canadian credit cards absolutely suck. American credit cards are much better. The level of disposable income matters. Job stability matters. 

You're right, there are so many variables and we as  consumers are only privy to the most superficial of them (I.E product price, interest rates and immediate rewards).

[thedude4bides]

2 hours ago, kokakolia said:

3. He assumes that anyone can get the same rewards as him with the same amount of effort. The country is a factor. Canadian credit cards absolutely suck. American credit cards are much better. The level of disposable income matters. Job stability matters. 

All of that matters.  Why would you assume that I assume that?  What did I say other that it’s possible to use credit without the world ending and that it not unwise to do so because there are advantages... like rewards?

[thedude4bides]

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

yeah right. 

It’s a pretty simple take-down of the argument that because CC’s are non-zero risk they ought to be avoided outright and certainly not promoted as a source of income/savings via rewards (because that’s just an irresponsible thing to do).  Neither of those things is true.

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, thedude4bides said:

It’s a pretty simple take-down of the argument that because CC’s are non-zero risk they ought to be avoided outright

Literally only you are saying this though, so are you disagreeing with yourself or just disingenuously debating raising counter points to financial risk arguments with health risks of handling cash? I.e trolling, because that has nothing to do with financial risk at all.

 

You're very much correct, neither are true because it's not even been suggested, just making it up so you can knock it down. Your middle ground isn't even middle ground either, using a credit card for literally every single purchase is impossible to be middle ground.

[The King of the Undead]

every form of money is a risk. debt cards can be stollen, banknotes can be stollen can't be used in online purchases and cc are a very large responsibility. everything has risk. there is a risk that my computer will go up in sparks any second I still use it the internet is a rediculous responsibility and yet where all here!

[thedude4bides]

38 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Literally only you are saying this though, so are you disagreeing with yourself or just disingenuously debating raising counter points to financial risk arguments with health risks of handling cash? I.e trolling, because that has nothing to do with financial risk at all.

Not in the least.  You are conflating two separate things.

A.) I addressed you’re argument that CC’s are risky 

B.) I separately addressed your claim that actual money is risk free

 

You're very much correct, neither are true because it's not even been suggested, just making it up so you can knock it down. Your middle ground isn't even middle ground either, using a credit card for literally every single purchase is impossible to be middle ground.

The rhetoric I’ve addressed is that CC’s are risky and therefore rewards shouldn't be considered when choosing how to pay.  The fact is CC’s are not inherently good or bad.  They have a certain set of mechanism that govern their use and you can take advantage of them if you are in a position to do so.  What’s bad is human behavior, compulsion, lack of restraint, and spending money you don’t have. 

[suicidalfranco]

Never used CCs and never will, there's no logical sense in spending more than what you earn/have

[leadeater]

18 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

The rhetoric I’ve addressed is that CC’s are risky and therefore rewards shouldn't be considered when choosing how to pay.  The fact is CC’s are not inherently good or bad.  They have a certain set of mechanism that govern their use and you can take advantage of them if you are in a position to do so.  What’s bad is human behavior, compulsion, lack of restraint, and spending money you don’t have. 

Quote

I separately addressed your claim that actual money is risk free

No you didn't because you raised a non relevant point to a financial risk. Credit has the risk of inuring a higher cost where as cash/debt does not. What you many end up paying cannot change unlike credit. This isn't a 'you will pay more' if using a credit card but you could, that is the risk. Accidentally paying more or getting short changed is not a counter point to a financial risk point about credit, if you can't count or don't look at your change or type in to a online web form the incorrect amount that is an unrelated risk to credit or not.

 

And you can get in to credit card debt without any of these things being the cause

Quote

behavior, compulsion, lack of restraint, and spending money you don’t have

None of these are a requirement for getting in to credit card debt.

 

There is a specific risk to using credit cards, you can raise as many other risks as you like but none of them are relevant to the issue. You're on a wage paying job that requires you to submit time sheets to get paid, you have a credit limit of 5000, your balance is at 3000, you get sick and are unable to work for two weeks and due to amazingly calculated working hours by your employer you don't have any entitled sick leave left so you don't get any pay for 2 weeks. You could of had 5000 credit or close to to pay bills and medical expenses and cover you until you can work again but you only have 2000 and it's not enough, now you are getting interest charges because you had active balance from a week or more ago which now gets you past the 21 day mark.

 

There's plenty of ways to get in to credit card debt that have nothing to do with the things you are only able to see as the reasons.

[steelo]

On 6/13/2019 at 3:28 PM, SenpaiKaplan said:

As a fluent speaker of 3 languages, and student of 2 others, I have more than a couple options.

Did you happen to see the news yesterday? Liberal politicians are SERIOUSLY considering mandatory slave reparation fees paid by Whites, aka a 'White people tax'. 10 years ago, this was just a crazy idea by extremists but today, mainstream politicians are actually considering this absurdity. This is so wrong on so many levels, not to mention it blatantly violates our Constitution. Cory Booker is one of the DNC presidential candidates who agree reparations need to be made for the actions of those 150+ years ago.

 

I give it 10-20 years and this nation is done.

[thedude4bides]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

No you didn't because you raised a non relevant point to a financial risk. Credit has the risk of inuring a higher cost where as cash/debt does not. What you many end up paying cannot change unlike credit. This isn't a 'you will pay more' if using a credit card but you could, that is the risk. Accidentally paying more or getting short changed is not a counter point to a financial risk point about credit, if you can't count or don't look at your change or type in to a online web form the incorrect amount that is an unrelated risk to credit or not.

This is just a wrong read on your part.  I only ever specified that I was talking about non-zero risk.  Financial Risk is an extremely broad term, btw, and include market risk, asset risk, interest rate risk, equity risk, inflationary risk, regulatory risk, default risk, and others.  The point I made required no specific risk... just non-zero risk.  Make sense?  

And you can get in to credit card debt without any of these things being the cause

None of these are a requirement for getting in to credit card debt.

 

There is a specific risk to using credit cards, you can raise as many other risks as you like but none of them are relevant to the issue. You're on a wage paying job that requires you to submit time sheets to get paid, you have a credit limit of 5000, your balance is at 3000, you get sick and are unable to work for two weeks and due to amazingly calculated working hours by your employer you don't have any entitled sick leave left so you don't get any pay for 2 weeks. You could of had 5000 credit or close to to pay bills and medical expenses and cover you until you can work again but you only have 2000 and it's not enough, now you are getting interest charges because you had active balance from a week or more ago which now gets you past the 21 day mark.

 

There's plenty of ways to get in to credit card debt that have nothing to do with the things you are only able to see as the reasons.

You are saying so many words that have nothing to do with the fact that CC risk being non-zero is not a reason not to use it and earn rewards.  Sorry.  This isn’t and hasn’t been, nor should have ever been a debate on what causes personal debt.

[DavidKalinowski]

On 6/13/2019 at 3:09 PM, jagdtigger said:

So if i can handle money properly and dont waste it im suspicious?! What an insane view that is.... (I actually have credit card but never used it.)

You might want to check and make sure its still active, my did had a CC for emergency use when I was younger, and when he needed to use it, the CC had deactivated it because of low usage. 

[SenKa]

6 hours ago, steelo said:

Did you happen to see the news yesterday? Liberal politicians are SERIOUSLY considering mandatory slave reparation fees paid by Whites, aka a 'White people tax'. 10 years ago, this was just a crazy idea by extremists but today, mainstream politicians are actually considering this absurdity. This is so wrong on so many levels, not to mention it blatantly violates our Constitution. Cory Booker is one of the DNC presidential candidates who agree reparations need to be made for the actions of those 150+ years ago.

 

I give it 10-20 years and this nation is done.

Yep, I heard it on the news. Absolutely insane.

[kokakolia]

6 hours ago, steelo said:

Did you happen to see the news yesterday? Liberal politicians are SERIOUSLY considering mandatory slave reparation fees paid by Whites, aka a 'White people tax'. 10 years ago, this was just a crazy idea by extremists but today, mainstream politicians are actually considering this absurdity. This is so wrong on so many levels, not to mention it blatantly violates our Constitution. Cory Booker is one of the DNC presidential candidates who agree reparations need to be made for the actions of those 150+ years ago.

 

I give it 10-20 years and this nation is done.

There will be a day when everyone has debt, and no means to pay it. The for-profit prisons will suspiciously multiply as poverty and crime increases. More than 50% of the population will be dependent on food stamps. This is when the American people will take arms against capitalism and overthrow the government. Then North Korea will restore order... oh wait. 

 

Nevermind

[leadeater]

6 hours ago, thedude4bides said:

You are saying so many words that have nothing to do with the fact that CC risk being non-zero is not a reason not to use it and earn rewards.  Sorry.  This isn’t and hasn’t been, nor should have ever been a debate on what causes personal debt.

Well again you are raising an argument to a point never said by me, being selective in what you use a credit card for doesn't mean you will miss out on all rewards and it doesn't even mean you would miss out on 90% of them or 50% etc. 50% of the US does not having any personal savings and lives pay to pay so my advice of being selective in what and why you pay by credit card is advice anyone can use and is safe to do so.

 

So you keep bringing up rewards but as if I have suggested to never use a credit card, that is only something you have been saying so you can either argue against your own point or look at what was actually said.

[thedude4bides]

On 6/19/2019 at 1:16 AM, leadeater said:

My entire point is credit is not zero risk,

Oh really?

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, thedude4bides said:

Oh really?

Yep.

[thedude4bides]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well again you are raising an argument to a point never said by me, being selective in what you use a credit card for doesn't mean you will miss out on all rewards and it doesn't even mean you would miss out on 90% of them or 50% etc. 50% of the US does not having any personal savings and lives pay to pay so my advice of being selective in what and why you pay by credit card is advice anyone can use and is safe to do so.

 

So you keep bringing up rewards but as if I have suggested to never use a credit card, that is only something you have been saying so you can either argue against your own point or look at what was actually said.

You have been preaching and preaching the perils of CC use.  You said "My entire point is credit is not zero risk".  

 

I've pointed out that is a flawed argument because nothing is zero risk.

 

Fact is, if no one wanted to take on risk, CC companies would not exist.  Insurance companies would not exist.  And no one would ever leave their house.  It's a poor argument.

 

That said, you also are telling people what they should and shouldn't do.

 

"my point is you shouldn't use a credit card for certain things"

 

Well, why?  Like Linus, I literally put everything on the card and now you are telling me I shouldn't?  

 

You are not wrong in that there is risk.  But you are wrong in using that as a reason for telling people how they choose to pay for things.  

 

 

 

 

[leadeater]

6 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

I've pointed out that is a flawed argument because nothing is zero risk.

So what, this is not a counter point to financial risk of credit. It's meaningless.

 

6 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

That said, you also are telling people what they should and shouldn't do.

No, but if that is how you want to take what I have been saying then that doesn't have much to do with me. In kind you have then also been telling people what they should and shouldn't do. Like I have said before, nobody has to take my advice, nobody has to agree and I don't expect people to.

 

6 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

Well, why?  Like Linus, I literally put everything on the card and now you are telling me I shouldn't?  

Linus explained how he mitigated the risk, which I said I agree with.

 

Credits scores are a risk factor that creditors and lenders use you evaluate you and how much risk they are willing to back, both parties assume risk here. This risk is based on the balance and conditions of the agreement, rewards don't lower the risk unless you use those to reduce the balance.

[mr moose]

10 hours ago, thedude4bides said:

It’s a pretty simple take-down of the argument that because CC’s are non-zero risk they ought to be avoided outright and certainly not promoted as a source of income/savings via rewards (because that’s just an irresponsible thing to do).  Neither of those things is true.

Again, you are making up arguments against things no one has said.

 

2 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

 

You are not wrong in that there is risk.  But you are wrong in using that as a reason for telling people how they choose to pay for things.  

 

And yet again, no one in this thread told anyone how they should pay for things,  It was simply highlighted that using a CC over debit comes with a risk.  Like it or not that it a fact.   I also added that rewards from those cards aren't free (someone pays for them somewhere) another fact you don't like very much.

 

I think the real issue here is you have been so upset at the idea your credit card use is under personal attack that you haven't read what people are saying. Thus you have jumped in with some less than accurate arguments and then tried to defend them by accusing everyone else of inferring something that wasn't said.  The reality is you are the only person in this thread who has inferred a meaning or message that wasn't made.

 

 

[thedude4bides]

Just now, leadeater said:

So what, this is not a counter point to financial risk of credit. It's meaningless.

It does mean something when an argument can hold water... and yours doesn't.  Perhaps someone else can explain it to you because I've gone as far as I'm willing on that one.

 

No, but if that is how you want to take what I have been saying then that doesn't have much to do with them. In kind you have then also been telling people what they should and shouldn't do. Like I have said before, nobody has to take my advice, nobody has to agree and I don't expect people to.

The only thing I ever told anyone to do was to take advantage of a situation that exist if they are able.  And none of it was bad advice.

 

Linus explained how he mitigated the risk, which I said I agree with.

That's right... risks can be mitigated.  I mitigate mine by paying the balance every month and not signing up for a card with fees.  I've said as much.

 

Credits scores are a risk factor that creditors and lenders use you evaluate you and how much risk they are willing to back, both parties assume risk here. This risk is based on the balance and conditions of the agreement, rewards don't lower the risk unless you use those to reduce the balance.

Preaching to the choir here... I've said all along I pay zero interest, zero fees, and earn rewards.

...

[thedude4bides]

11 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Again, you are making up arguments against things no one has said.

False.  I've re-quoted a few posts back if you care to take a peek.

And yet again, no one in this thread told anyone how they should pay for things,  It was simply highlighted that using a CC over debit comes with a risk.  Like it or not that it a fact.   I also added that rewards from those cards aren't free (someone pays for them somewhere) another fact you don't like very much.

Another inference that is just wrong.  I do not dislike the fact that the rewards I receive come from somewhere besides me, at all.

I think the real issue here is you have been so upset at the idea your credit card use is under personal attack that you haven't read what people are saying. Thus you have jumped in with some less than accurate arguments and then tried to defend them by accusing everyone else of inferring something that wasn't said.  The reality is you are the only person in this thread who has inferred a meaning or message that wasn't made.

You haven't seen me upset.  Why do you keep inferring things that are just way off?  Very bad habit.  

 

...

[mr moose]

18 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

...

 

All your points have been addressed , you are now just repeating yourself.  Repeating yourself will not change what you have said or make it any less flawed with regard to this conversation.

[SenKa]

21 minutes ago, niofalpha said:

Yes, because corporate entities hate right wing views. Fuck off with your victim complex.

Woah there, never said anything of my political views. Also never did anything quantifying as a "victim complex either"

 

I disagree with the notion of a social credit system as it opens up far too much room for bias (as it already has shown in China, if you read up on the topic).