Toto, I don't think we're in China anymore - US companies adopting social credit score system

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Curious Pineapple said:

Amex.... He pays for a credit card and gets given rewards. Millions of others also pay the fee and many won't be using the rewards. Plus the amount they charge merchants for accepting it. Amex are the scummiest of credit card scum out there.

 

And the merchants add that cost to the price of goods, which means everyone also has to pay a slightly higher price to cover those rewards.  Sounds like we all suffer from consumers falling prey to these marketing gimmicks.

 

[Curious Pineapple]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

 

And the merchants add that cost to the price of goods, which means everyone also has to pay a slightly higher price to cover those rewards.  Sounds like we all suffer from consumers falling prey to these marketing gimmicks.

 

But it's all OK cause one guy here broke a windscreen once (even though my car insurance covers it as standard anyway) and got a replacement.

[leadeater]

11 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

So CC cards aren't the devil like you've been saying?  Or is there a middle ground where responsible use and generating $$$ from rewards is possible?

Well if you had read some of the things I have already said yes, I have given examples of where credit cards can and should be used and ones where they can only be used. My middle ground is not using them for every single purchase, it's not what they are for.

[thedude4bides]

32 minutes ago, mr moose said:

There are two problems with your premise:

 

1. you seem to think all risks are equal.

2. you are under the impression those rewards are free and don't cost you somewhere else.

 

Nothing is free.

1.) I only ever referenced non-zero risk.... but in a different post than you quoted.  Nothing was ever said about quantifying one risk in comparison to another, hence, equality between risks cannot and should not be surmised from anything I've said.  Shame on you, sir lol

 

2.) I realize that rewards programs are paid for by someone... it just ain't me;)

[thedude4bides]

10 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well if you had read some of the things I have already said yes, I have given examples of where credit cards can and should be used and ones where they can only be used. My middle ground is not using them for every single purchase, it's not what they are for.

Only my drug dealers know the things I buy with cash.  Everything else?  I get money back so why wouldn't I use my CC?

[thedude4bides]

22 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

But it's all OK cause one guy here broke a windscreen once (even though my car insurance covers it as standard anyway) and got a replacement.

That $300 woulda sucked... FWIW, my Amex charges no fee.  Not all do.  So, no, I do not pay no stinking fees.  But I do get rewards.  It's great.  You should try it.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

1.) I only ever referenced non-zero risk.... but in a different post than you quoted.  Nothing was ever said about quantifying one risk in comparison to another, hence, equality between risks cannot and should not be surmised from anything I've said.  Shame on you, sir lol

??  so you compare risks that cannot be compared because they are not equal, then argue I shouldn't do that and insinuate I have made a mistake somewhere.  

 

4 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

2.) I realize that rewards programs are paid for by someone... it just ain't me;)

Your pretty sure about that aren't you?  

[thedude4bides]

Just now, mr moose said:

??  so you compare risks that cannot be compared because they are not equal, then argue I shouldn't do that and insinuate I have made a mistake somewhere.  

You're going to have start making sense on this one dude... you somehow incorrectly inferred I think all risks are equal and you're still incorrect about that.

Your pretty sure about that aren't you?  

100

See above, my love

[Curious Pineapple]

2 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

That $300 woulda sucked... FWIW, my Amex charges no fee.  Not all do.  So, no, I do not pay no stinking fees.  But I do get rewards.  It's great.  You should try it.

I'm good thanks, got 5 windscreens for my car so it'll be a while before I run out

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, thedude4bides said:

See above, my love

you are inferring that tying your laces carries the same risks as using credit for everyday purchases.

 

Not sure why you can't see the flaw in that.

 

 

 

[thedude4bides]

Just now, Curious Pineapple said:

I'm good thanks, got 5 windscreens for my car so it'll be a while before I run out

Geez... where do you keep all them?

[Curious Pineapple]

Just now, thedude4bides said:

Geez... where do you keep all them?

One on the car, one is on my caravan and got another 3 in storage

[thedude4bides]

3 minutes ago, mr moose said:

you are inferring that tying your laces carries the same risks as using credit for everyday purchases.

 

Not sure why you can't see the flaw in that.

 

 

 

No.  You incorrectly inferred that.  I never inferred that.  Not once.  Re-read what I said.  

 

Not the best hill to die on, btw...

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, thedude4bides said:

No.  You incorrectly inferred that.  I never inferred that.  Not once.  Re-read what I said.  

you said:

9 hours ago, thedude4bides said:

You know what else isn’t zero risk?  Everything you do.  Literally everything.  Even going to to sleep, there is no guarantee you’ll wake up.  It happens.

and:

6 hours ago, thedude4bides said:

If you don’t tie your shoes you risk tripping on yourself.  If you don’t wash your hands you risk getting sick and spreading illness.  Are you saying if you don’t take care with your finances that there are risks?  Shocking.

 

 

you are actually trying to compare activities with different risks to dismiss a risk argument.

 

No one is saying there is no risk in life, they are saying there are certain risks associated with CC that should not be ignored.  Your response is to talk about shoe laces and sleeping,  they are not comparable and the inclusion of them in this discussion is akin to clutching at straws because you don't like the idea that CC may carry real risks.

 

I have not inferred anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thedude4bides]

7 minutes ago, mr moose said:

you said:

and:

 

you are actually trying to compare activities with different risks to dismiss a risk argument.

 

No one is saying there is no risk in life, they are saying there are certain risks associated with CC that should not be ignored.  Your response is to talk about shoe laces and sleeping,  they are not comparable and the inclusion of them in this discussion is akin to clutching at straws because you don't like the idea that CC may carry real risks.

His entire point was "credit is not zero risk"... and my point was that NOTHING IS and that if non-zero risk the reason not to engage in an activity then you would do nothing.  Ever.  

 

I have not inferred anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know precisely what I said.  I choose my words carefully.  Not once do say anything about any risks being equal.  You inferred that incorrectly.  End of story.

 

But listen...  You seen interested in the quantification of risk.  If you want, I can help.  Risk is what I do for a living.

[mr moose]

6 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

I know precisely what I said.  I choose my words carefully.  Not once do say anything about any risks being equal.  You inferred that incorrectly.  End of story.

 

But listen...  You seen interested in the quantification of risk.  If you want, I can help.  Risk is what I do for a living.

It doesn't matter how many times you say you didn't infer quantification, you did exactly that by raising them in the first place.

[thedude4bides]

2 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It doesn't matter how many times you say you didn't infer quantification, you did exactly that by raising them in the first place.

I am having such a good time holding your hand through all of this complex material that I'll continue to indulge.

 

His entire point was "credit is not zero risk"... and my point, which apparently needs explanation to some, was that NOTHING IS zero risk.  Further, if non-zero risk the reason not to engage in an activity then you would do nothing.  Ever.  Therefore, the argument as presented is not a very good one, at all.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

His entire point was "credit is not zero risk"... and my point, which apparently needs explanation to some, was that NOTHING IS zero risk.  Further, if non-zero risk the reason not to engage in an activity then you would do nothing.  Ever.  Therefore, the argument as presented is not a very good one, at all.

You know what is not a risk though? Spending actual money and not accruing credit. There is no risk in the cost of purchase increasing if you don't use credit. One method of spending has that particular risk and one does not.

[thedude4bides]

8 minutes ago, leadeater said:

You know what is not a risk though? Spending actual money and not accruing credit. There is no risk in the cost of purchase increasing if you don't use credit. One method of spending has that particular risk and one does not.

Not true.  You risk losing extended warranty on products you buy with credit cards.  You risk losing buyer protection.  You risk losing ability to dispute purchases from merchants that get shady on you.  You risk losing rewards.  

 

Holding cash has it's own separate risks.  Like losing it for one (lose your cc and you'll have one overnighted with everything protected).  Getting robbed of it for two (Stolen CC's are protected against).  Germs for three (well maybe they both get germy).  

 

Editing to add: with cash you also risk getting short-changed by the cashier

[leadeater]

36 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

You risk losing extended warranty on products you buy with credit cards.

Well this is a false benefit because pretty much every other country has laws that make this unnecessary and often illegal, consumer protection laws exist for this purpose not credit cards. This should not been seen as a benefit and a mechanism to pull people in to using credit cards, however you'd likely be using a credit card or store card for this purchase anyway but that doesn't mean warranties should be at all coupled to these.

 

36 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

You risk losing buyer protection

As above, consumer protection laws.

 

36 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

You risk losing ability to dispute purchases from merchants that get shady on you.

Consumer protection laws.

 

36 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

You risk losing rewards

Yes this is an example where you would be using a credit card or store card and be getting any such rewards, often over and above basic spending rewards given by the credit card company.

 

Also I didn't say cash I said actual money, of which I have the same ability to reverse a charge on a Visa debt card as I would on a Visa credit card.

[thedude4bides]

6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Well this is a false benefit because pretty much every other country has laws that make this unnecessary and often illegal, consumer protection laws exist for this purpose not credit cards. This should not been seen as a benefit and a mechanism to pull people in to using credit cards, however you'd likely be using a credit card or store card for this purchase anyway but that doesn't mean warranties should be at all coupled to these.

This is silly.  I've had things warrantied via my CC company that were out of warranty otherwise.  This is not an option with cash.  

As above, consumer protection laws.

 

Consumer protection laws.

 

Yes this is an example where you would be using a credit card or store card and be getting any such rewards, often over and above basic spending rewards given by the credit card company.

 

Also I didn't say cash I said actual money, of which I have the same ability to reverse a charge on a Visa debt card as I would on a Visa credit card.

Very good point. 

How are you a moderator and not at all aware of how far into the deep we've gone?  Does the sanctity of the OP mean anything to you?

 

Well, since we're here... the point was simple.  Forgoing CC for "actual money" does indeed carry risk.  I think you should acknowledge that.  

 

What is risk?  Risk is uncertainty.  There is risk either way you go.  But, I like my rewards, dude.  Don't try to stop me with your cash/actual money-only evangelism, please

[leadeater]

26 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

Don't try to stop me with your cash/actual money-only evangelism, please

I wasn't trying to stop you though, I was commenting on the the situation as a whole. I'm not sure where you got that I was saying to you that you should not do what you do, I can critique how credit cards get used without specifically targeting an individual such as yourself. It seems you took it as targeted to you which I guess is why you have been so defense about this.

 

26 minutes ago, thedude4bides said:

Does the sanctity of the OP mean anything to you?

This is a topic about credit scores is it not. How was my original comments on how credit cards get used and credit economy not about the topic. I wasn't the one getting personally offended by my opinions on the matter. I think there is a lot of systems in place in both credit cards and credit economy that shouldn't be there that are by design incentivising you to use it. I'm not criticizing any individual person for leveraging those benefits but rather many of them shouldn't be there and should be covered by other things. I don't care how you actually use your credit card but if you use your spending habits in examples and I comment on them I can see how you would think I am commenting about you specifically and not on how I think people should use them, nobody has to follow my advice or agree with my opinions, these are mine and why I advise others on where to use things such as credit cards.

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, thedude4bides said:

I am having such a good time holding your hand through all of this complex material that I'll continue to indulge.

resorting to Insults are the first sign you are wrong.

 

2 hours ago, thedude4bides said:

His entire point was "credit is not zero risk"... and my point, which apparently needs explanation to some, was that NOTHING IS zero risk.  Further, if non-zero risk the reason not to engage in an activity then you would do nothing.  Ever.  Therefore, the argument as presented is not a very good one, at all.

 

and your post was trying to compare vastly different risk factors in order to dismiss an opinion regarding risk that wasn't even proposed in the first place.

 

[thedude4bides]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

I wasn't trying to stop you though, I was commenting on the the situation as a whole. I'm not sure where you got that I was saying to you that you should not do what you do, I can critique how credit cards get used without specifically targeting an individual such as yourself. It seems you took it as targeted to you which I guess is why you have been so defense about this.

Not at all, the comment was in jest..

This is a topic about credit scores is it not. How was my original comments on how credit cards get used and credit economy not about the topic. I wasn't the one getting personally offended by my opinions on the matter. I think there is a lot of systems in place in both credit cards and credit economy that shouldn't be there that are by design incentivising you to use it. I'm not criticizing any individual person for leveraging those benefits but rather many of them shouldn't be there and should be covered by other things. I don't care how you actually use your credit card but if you use your spending habits in examples and I comment on them I can see how you would think I am commenting about you specifically and not on how I think people should use them, nobody has to follow my advice or agree with my opinions, these are mine and why I advise others on where to use things such as credit cards.

You really seem exactly like the kinda guy who ought to find a way to shimmy through the holes and cracks in the system and be the guy that the CC card companies HATE

 

I take such delight in it.  They hate me.  They make no money off of me (except through selling my data maybe).

[thedude4bides]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

resorting to Insults are the first sign you are wrong.

 

 

and your post was trying to compare vastly different risk factors in order to dismiss an opinion regarding risk that wasn't even proposed in the first place.

 

Please don’t mistake wit for insults.