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nicklmg

The New Mac Pro…

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Maybe linus can convince Mrs Su to give him a regular VegaVII Duo.


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2 hours ago, Drak3 said:

It's a proper workstation for enterprise use cases, hence the hardware choices.

 

And making these types of workstations aesthetically appealing (so basically not this Cheese grater) can help employee moral and client perceptions.

Possibly.

I have yet to see a Mac in an enterprise setting, and I"ve worked for some pretty large enterprises.

I'm sure Hollywood will love it, and maybe the music industry, but outside of that, I'm hard pressed to think of an enterprise environment where the IT staff welcomes the mix of PC and macs.


So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds

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3 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

Possibly.

I have yet to see a Mac in an enterprise setting, and I"ve worked for some pretty large enterprises.

I'm sure Hollywood will love it, and maybe the music industry, but outside of that, I'm hard pressed to think of an enterprise environment where the IT staff welcomes the mix of PC and macs.

Lol come on. Pretty large enterprises have different needs and sometimes a mac is the right tool for the job, sometimes a Linux desktop and sometimes a windows machine is. 

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$40,000 for a workstation is actually not that uncommon and very easy to spec out even on the PC side when you begin to stack Quadro's, Xeons, ECC and solid state RAID. Go all out and you will hit six digit pricing as well. For annual salaries that are multiple times $40K the rich can absorb the cost.

 

That said it's still not enterprise rich where JUST ONE 4U server can be stuffed to the gills and cost a cool $378,000. When you begin to wrap your head around that 6 square foot of space taken up by a single rack stuffed to the ceiling with metal and silicon totaling almost $3 million... Apple's pricing becomes chump change.

 

Yes, you can buy today a Windows 10 equipped PC that has a price tag of $277,384 - ear plugs, air conditioning and 208V power source extra ??? It does come with the power cord though ?

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Love the fact that people can't hate on the hardware so they instead hate on the appearance and complain about trivial things.

 

It's the mac pro. It's made for fucking professionals you idiots. Yes, it's going to be expensive. 

 

Have you not even SEEN the "$100,000 computer" videos linus has made for his own, tiny, video production company?

 

Why don't you take a guess at how much money each of the editor's computers are worth. 

 

I think the computer is freaking gorgeous and much prettier than any of the crap offered by any other prebuilt company, and better than 90% of cases offered today. 

 

As for claims of worrying about the "passive" cooling. Did you ever... look... at the pictures? I mean... calling it "passive" cooling is a bit of a stretch. The only difference between passive and active cooling is whether or not a fan is attached to the heatsink. But if you look at the inside of the computer.... well what do you see? 3 massive 140 or 160 mm... double wide... essentially blowy-ma-trons in the front of the case literally a cm or so away from the heatsink and with no where else for the air to go.... yeah... calling it "passively cooled" is definitely a stretch. Those heatsinks are MASSIVE compared to what you'd normally see on those GPUs and CPU, and with the ducting? Yeah, shouldn't be a problem. 

 

As for the lower cost versions? It's apple's way of throwing the fanboys a bone. Apple knows this computer is expensive, so it's giving those of us who don't want or need a hugely powerful computer a chance to buy a more "reasonable" (ha) mac pro if we are so inclined. $6,000? Is that really so much more than most of you have spent on your perfect gaming computers? There are definitely those of you out there with the latest and greatest intel extreme processor, RGB this and that, water cooling bullshit, the latest RTX whatever that have spent AT LEAST that, if not more. 

 

Oh and lastly:

 

Can't hate on the monitor? Na we'll hate on the mount. "That'll teach 'em" You DO realize that 95% of professionals who will want this monitor will have their own vesa compatible stands and will just buy the cheaper vesa mound adapter.... right?

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Just now, corrado33 said:

3 massive 140 or 160 mm... double wide

Those fans also have less area covered by blades. The hubs are massive, which will reduce the effectiveness compared to more conventional fan designs.

 

So, skepticism that the new Mac Pro will be anything more than adequate at cooling, especially as one jumps to what is effectively a quad GPU setup, is warranted.


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Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

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2 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Those fans also have less area covered by blades. The hubs are massive, which will reduce the effectiveness compared to more conventional fan designs.

 

So, skepticism that the new Mac Pro will be anything more than adequate at cooling, especially as one jumps to what is effectively a quad GPU setup, is warranted.

Really? Really? Did you do any research before you made this comment? Obviously not.

 

Bigger hub = bigger and more powerful DC motor and bigger/better bearings = longer lasting fan. Deeper fan = more CFM and less noise at a given RPM, as well as improved static pressure performance. The inside of the fan blades closest to the hub provide very little of the CFM anyway, considering that part moves the slowest. Do you really think you're smarter than apple's engineers? 

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4 hours ago, Umberto said:

Lol come on. Pretty large enterprises have different needs and sometimes a mac is the right tool for the job, sometimes a Linux desktop and sometimes a windows machine is. 

I didn't say there were no use cases, I said I'd be hard pressed to come up with one...

 


So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds

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1 minute ago, corrado33 said:

Do you really think you're smarter than apple's engineers? 

I'm smart enough to wait for a product to come out before gauging its actual performance.

 

And we've seen REPEATEDLY that Apple's engineers have sacrificed thermals and performance for the sake of aesthetics (a huge fail IMO) and acoustics. There's not much reason to think that they've changed.

3 minutes ago, corrado33 said:

Bigger hub = bigger and more powerful DC motor and bigger/better bearings = longer lasting fan. Deeper fan = more CFM and less noise at a given RPM, as well as improved static pressure performance.

Obviously, as indicated by every firm moving away from that design in a market that markets massively upon increasing performance and/or lowering noise levels.


Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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9 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

I'm smart enough to wait for a product to come out before gauging its actual performance.

Cop out.

 

9 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

And we've seen REPEATEDLY that Apple's engineers have sacrificed thermals and performance for the sake of aesthetics (a huge fail IMO) and acoustics. There's not much reason to think that they've changed.

And so has every other thin laptop manufacturer in the CONSUMER sector. You've been drinking too much of the linus cool-aid my friend. You may want to get of the hole you're in and look around a bit more. 

 

9 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Obviously, as indicated by every firm moving away from that design in a market that markets massively upon increasing performance and/or lowering noise levels.

So you're disagreeing with physics and fluid dynamics now? Ok, this'll end well for you. Hint, we've been moving toward thinner fans because we've been moving toward smaller cases and PCs for a while now. No one wants to stick a double wide fan inside their PC because it takes up a lot of room, not because double wide fans perform less well than thin fans. Have you ever even.... held a double wide fan? Or a half width fan? The difference in airflow is massive. 

 

EDIT: For the record, other pre-built companies DO still use double wide fans. I take them out of computers all the time. They're annoying as hell because they're a pain to replace. 

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Just now, corrado33 said:

Cop out.

 

Not really. I reserve judgement for when I have some facts. Currently, the only facts I have are that Apple has large heatsinks and fans where roughly 50% of the diameter is hub.

 

1 minute ago, corrado33 said:

You've been drinking too much of the linus cool-aid my friend.

You must be new here if you truly believe that.

 

2 minutes ago, corrado33 said:

So you're disagreeing with physics and fluid dynamics now?

Point to where I did that.


Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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9 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

I'm hard pressed to think of an enterprise environment where the IT staff welcomes the mix of PC and macs.

Wait until you have to call for warranty support. Since Apple doesn't offer on site support nor are their devices easy to work on (with the exception of this latest Mac Pro), I don't see them winning the hearts of Enterprise customers any time soon. 

 

Say I have a HP EliteBook with a defective board. I can call HP to have a support ticket entered, and they'll send a technician the next day to swap out the defective part. The whole board swap wouldn't take more than an hour to complete on site and I'll have the machine re-imaged and ready to redeploy the following day. If an IT Tech is required to hand deliver the device to a physical store, forget about it. And since you can't remove the mass storage drives from most of their current line up or have a means to securely sanitize the drive to standards like Canadian OPS-II, that is also not a viable option. 

 

So just those two things alone should scare away most Enterprise customers. 

 

In other news... so if customers really want to have the luxury of not swiss cheesing their fancy new $5000 display with duct tape or leaning it against a wall, they have to shell out at least another 200 bucks? Damn, imagine paying $40000 on a new car and then having to pay an extra $2000 just so the car doesn't have to be delivered to you on its rims. If something is required in order for the product to be actually usable, that part shouldn't be sold separately. This reminds me of the time Nintendo decided power adapters was something that wasn't necessary to include with their new 3DS systems. 


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I feel like the strongest point made in the video was the massive disparity in MSRP vs what the actual hardware costs.  It seems (esp at the low end) one could build an enthusiast PC that would smoke the low end Mac pro in almost every way.

 

My wife loves iMacs and I love PC.  We always have both in our house.  It seems like the prices we spend on them has actually not been that bad compared to each other (if you take into account the nice monitor the AIO imac provides, though it gets smoked in performance). 

 

However, one could build a massive workstation beast on the "low end" (<6000) and it would be hard for a company to justify macs in that scenario.  The argument I have seen is "professionals who are worried about money for their time".  If those pros know they can buy a PC with the same compute power for 33% less (or more) do you think they are going to sacrifice that money for the shiny metal and apple logo?

 

I dont know what the high end mac pro will do yet, but at the low end, the 6000 mac pro would get absolutely smoked by a PC.  Radeon 580, 8 core CPU, 256 gb SSd?  Seriously what year is it (for a 6k PC)?...  Will the high end (how much are they charging for that?!) be able to compete with a PC made of similar parts for lesser cost?  Will be interesting to see the initial tests!


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5 minutes ago, Zberg said:

I feel like the strongest point made in the video was the massive disparity in MSRP vs what the actual hardware costs. 

Per Apple's tech specs, they're running unreleased Xeon chips. These chips see a large cache jump.

We're also getting a workstation counterpart for GPUs. The Radeon Pro 580X =/= Radeon RX580. @Mira Yurizakiknows which WX card is the closest counterpart. Hint, not as cheap as the RX580.

We also have a good bit of Thunderbolt connectivity. That costs money to implement.

Then there is also the T2 chip, for security.


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Break off your chains

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Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

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The blood is on your hands.

 

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7 hours ago, BlueChinchillaEatingDorito said:

And since you can't remove the mass storage drives from most of their current line up or have a means to securely sanitize the drive to standards like Canadian OPS-II, that is also not a viable option. 

This is a solid point. They mentioned the new mac pro is upgradeable, but I assumed this meant the drives (in whatever config) could be removed as well. Can they? I know the existing stuff can't be, which is why (at least one of many many reasons) we don't have them in our enterprise environment but your other point about on-site service is also key.

 

With any PC maker, we can pay enough money for on-site service...but if Apple doesn't, then it's a total non-starter. I wonder if anyone has any 1st hand experience with supporting Macs in an enterprise environment where this sort of requirement is critical...


So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds

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On 6/5/2019 at 9:34 AM, Belgarathian said:

I'd suggest that Apple went with Intel for Thunderbolt. 

 

Not sure if it's on-chip or a separate chipset with the new processors, but if it's on-chip that would explain everything.

they have had a partnership regarding thunderbolt, but that doesnt stop them from using AMD since it is an external chip that is also used on AMD plattforms. like some new X570 ASrock Boards. 

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9 hours ago, GoldenLag said:

they have had a partnership regarding thunderbolt, but that doesnt stop them from using AMD since it is an external chip that is also used on AMD plattforms. like some new X570 ASrock Boards. 

Intel did make a bit show and dance about taking Thunderbolt on-die rather than an external chipset though... Yet to be seen if these new processors include this though.


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20 hours ago, Zberg said:

I feel like the strongest point made in the video was the massive disparity in MSRP vs what the actual hardware costs.  It seems (esp at the low end) one could build an enthusiast PC that would smoke the low end Mac pro in almost every way.

 

My wife loves iMacs and I love PC.  We always have both in our house.  It seems like the prices we spend on them has actually not been that bad compared to each other (if you take into account the nice monitor the AIO imac provides, though it gets smoked in performance). 

 

However, one could build a massive workstation beast on the "low end" (<6000) and it would be hard for a company to justify macs in that scenario.  The argument I have seen is "professionals who are worried about money for their time".  If those pros know they can buy a PC with the same compute power for 33% less (or more) do you think they are going to sacrifice that money for the shiny metal and apple logo?

 

I dont know what the high end mac pro will do yet, but at the low end, the 6000 mac pro would get absolutely smoked by a PC.  Radeon 580, 8 core CPU, 256 gb SSd?  Seriously what year is it (for a 6k PC)?...  Will the high end (how much are they charging for that?!) be able to compete with a PC made of similar parts for lesser cost?  Will be interesting to see the initial tests!

Well, LTT definitely wont do this in their coming video but you have to consider the market and compare it to what the actual alternatives for that market is. And this is enterprise stuff. If you go to HPs website and look at their enterprise workstation configurator you will get a $200 Xeon processor, 500gb spinning drive, 8 gb RAM, optical drive, 4 USB-A ports and not much else for a cool $3400. Obviously, no one that's in the market for these machines would buy that base config. 

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3 minutes ago, Umberto said:

If you go to HPs website and look at their enterprise workstation configurator you will get a $200 Xeon processor, 500gb spinning drive, 8 gb RAM, optical drive, 4 USB-A ports and not much else for a cool $3400.

Makin' out like a bandit, right there.


Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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21 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

I didn't say there were no use cases, I said I'd be hard pressed to come up with one...

 

For one, iOS software development requires a mac, and that's a business in the hundreds of billions. 

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56 minutes ago, Umberto said:

For one, iOS software development requires a mac, and that's a business in the hundreds of billions. 

Does that require a 50k workstation like the MP?


So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds

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13 minutes ago, Radium_Angel said:

Does that require a 50k workstation like the MP?

Well it does now.

 

Thanks. Thanks for that.

 

 

 

 

/s


Come Bloody Angel

Break off your chains

And look what I've found in the dirt.

 

Pale battered body

Seems she was struggling

Something is wrong with this world.

 

Fierce Bloody Angel

The blood is on your hands

Why did you come to this world?

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

Everybody turns to dust.

 

The blood is on your hands.

 

The blood is on your hands!

 

Pyo.

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On 6/5/2019 at 1:37 AM, power666 said:

SSD pricing is poor and capacity is lacking.  For a proprietary solution, there is little advantage to going this route.  There are a couple of SATA ports for spinning rust if capacity is warranted and the PCIe slots can be adapted to M.2 for more commodity storage.  There is really not incentive to go with Apple's storage options unless they force booting from it.

Quick input on this section of your (very insightful) post.

 

DISCLAIMER! This post ended up being really long winded due to the nature of deductive reasoning, so here's a TL;DR (which also ended up pretty long): There is literally 0 reason it shouldn't work unless Apple found some way to filter PCI-E storage devices and disallow booting from some, but not others. I see no fathomable way of doing this without totally re-doing how Mac's handle external booting and making it impossible to boot from a volume not signed by Apple with a proprietary key only distributed to AASP's and Apple themselves. I don't put that past Apple, but I would imagine this isn't happening due to the fact that it would cost an insane amount of money not only in distributing new recovery drives to every Apple Store and AASP, but in creating hardware to make it work, and workers time at Apple Stores doing basic recovery jobs most consumers do themselves. It is economically non viable, and utterly stupid even if it was.

 

Full length post:

There is absolutely 0 way of knowing how the T2 Chip interacts with other PCI-E storage devices, as the new Mac Pro will be the first T2 enabled Mac with more than one PCI-E device, other than TB3, and the very first with physical PCI-E slots.

 

I am sure Apple has thought about this and locked it out somehow, but here is my hypothesis as it stands.

 

You can, should you need to, boot a T2 enabled mac from any external device. What you cannot do is write to T2 encrypted drives with the devices permission, which is only granted to Bootcamp storage drivers under Windows, and macOS. In every instance I have seen (I do not own a T2 enabled mac, so I don't know if for some reason the T2 chip changes the macOS installer behavior), macOS allows you to install it on portable devices. And I know for a fact macOS will boot from external volumes (USB in particular) if copied there via something like Carbon Copy Cloner. This includes Thunderbolt, which is simply PCI-E over TB3. This feature won't be changing any time soon, as if it did you would be unable to back up a macOS device to anything other than Apple's own "Time Capsule", which I don't believe was ever profitable and isn't being made anymore. Not to mention, it would need to be redone from scratch with a signed chip to allow it to actually be usable as a recovery medium. I delve deeper into this below.

 

I have not found a situation where the macOS installer will not install, given that the version is correct to the machine. So, there is 0 reason to believe a macOS compatible hard card (like OWC sells, and IIRC they do sell one for M.2 drives in the OG Mac Pro) would not allow install. The T2 chip does not seem interface directly with the installer, and this is the only thing i can fathom would stop installing to external mediums directly.

 

If apple revised the T2 chip to not allow non-apple devices to be touched by the device full stop, this would be a major shot in the foot to apple as a company. Here is a short list of everything else Apple would need to do in order to make this reality: Patch macOS for this new strict T2 chip, patch Bootcamp for the new strict T2 chip, distribute apple-signed TB3 recovery devices to every Apple Store and AASP on the planet, create a totally new SSD controller with an encrypted key only interface-able by the T2 chip (to prevent the key simply being hacked), waste Apple Store and AASP technicians times with basic reinstall and recovery jobs consumers could previously do themselves, and last but not least slowly put companies like OWC out of business as well as go through legal hell defending the aforementioned "strict T2 chip" in court in countries such as the US with precidentally upheld right to repair laws.

 

The absolute worst case senario would be to boot from a device that is not the main SSD would be:

Image main volume to new presumedly larger storage volume

Hold option during boot

Select copied volume

Boot, and under boot volume select the new drive

 

The Mac's boot-loader will then totally ignore the main drive and boot to the one of your choosing.

 

I think this ended up being my longest single post monkaS


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