Sony taken to court over PlayStation Store Refund Policy by ACCC

[Spotty]

Source: https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/allegations-sony-breached-consumer-law-for-playstation-games

Source: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-29/the-accc-alleges-sony-misled-gamers2c-refused-to-refund-faulty/11160442
 

Quote

The ACCC has instituted proceedings in the Federal Court against Sony Interactive Entertainment Network Europe Limited (Sony Europe) for making false or misleading representations to Australian consumers on its website and in dealings with Australian customers of its PlayStation online store.

The ACCC alleges that from around September 2017, Sony Europe told consumers seeking a refund for faulty games that it did not have to provide refunds for games that had been downloaded, or if 14 days had passed since purchase.

Sony Europe also allegedly told consumers it did not have to provide refunds unless the game developer told the consumer the game was irreparably faulty or otherwise authorised a refund. It also told consumers that it could provide refunds using virtual PlayStation currency instead of money.

The ACCC’s case is that these representations are false or misleading, and do not reflect the consumer guarantee rights afforded to all Australian consumers under the Australian Consumer Law.

“We allege that Sony Europe gave false and misleading information to their customers about their rights in relation to games sold via its PlayStation Store,” ACCC Chair Rod Sims said.

 

...

Under the consumer guarantees in the Australian Consumer Law, consumers have the right to a refund, repair or replacement if a product is faulty because it is not of acceptable quality, is not fit for purpose or does not match descriptions made by the businesses, depending on the seriousness of the fault.

^{https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/allegations-sony-breached-consumer-law-for-playstation-games}

 

Quote

Video gaming company Sony Europe will face court in Australia over allegations it refused to refund customers who bought faulty games through its PlayStation online store.

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) has brought proceedings against the company in the Federal Court after receiving complaints from Australian gamers.

The allegations include that Sony Europe made false and misleading representations by telling customers it did not have to provide refunds for faulty games if it had been 14 days since the purchase or if games had been downloaded.
"You could well argue, how do you know the good is faulty until you download it?" said Mr Sims.

One customer cited in the ACCC's case purchased the game Aven Colony but, when they sought a refund, PlayStation support representatives referred them to the game developer.

Another customer sought a refund for a faulty LEGO PlayStation game but the money was returned to their 'PlayStation wallet' rather than their bank account.

The ACCC said refunds must be given in the original payment form, unless the customer chooses a store credit.

^{https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-29/the-accc-alleges-sony-misled-gamers2c-refused-to-refund-faulty/11160442}

Under Australian Consumer Laws, if a product or service has a major fault then the customer is entitled to a repair, replacement, or full refund [the customers choice]. Refunds must be issued in the original payment method, meaning that offering store credit as a refund for a purchase made via cash/credit is not allowed unless requested/agreed to by the customer. Additionally under Australian Consumer Law, the store you purchased the goods from are not allowed to redirect the customer to the manufacturer (game developer in this case) for resolution.
 

There's a pretty strong precedent set for this in Australia after the successful court action ACCC took against Valve's Steam store for failing to provide refunds for digital purchases. Steam were required to change their refund policy which forced Valve to offer refunds on items purchased on the Steam digital store. Steam also had to pay $3 million in fines as well as provide a notice on its website (au) notifying customers of their consumer rights.

The Notice which was displayed on the Steam website: (Since removed)

Spoiler

The Steam court case went for a number of years and included failed appeals from Valve, so don't hold your breath for any changes over night. However, as this progresses there's a pretty good chance that refunding games bought on the PlayStation Store, and probably other digital games stores as well, will become a little bit easier.

[Arika]

the ACCC does not screw around when it comes to consumer protection, i don't see Sony coming out on top.

[mr moose]

The only issue I see them facing in the years to come is defining how serious a fault is.   Given most games (especially online games) evolve over time, how would they determine what size of fault is required to warrant a full refund?

 

I can come at unplayable, but if users get away with claiming a full refund after several months of game play on the grounds that a small glitch in one part of the game made it not as advertised then everyone is going to be hit with higher costs. 

[Spotty]

26 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The only issue I see them facing in the years to come is defining how serious a fault is.   Given most games (especially online games) evolve over time, how would they determine what size of fault is required to warrant a full refund?

 

I can come at unplayable, but if users get away with claiming a full refund after several months of game play on the grounds that a small glitch in one part of the game made it not as advertised then everyone is going to be hit with higher costs. 

It depends.

If the game advertised certain features that are missing from the product, for example if the product page for the game advertises online multiplayer features, however multiplayer was not yet implemented when the game was released or if it was an older game where the servers had been switched off and the multiplayer features removed, then the customer would be entitled to a refund as it was not as described.

Likewise if it advertises "600 cars available to race at 50 tracks from around the world", however only 50 cars were available in the base game with the remainder 550 cars only available through additional add-on purchases, then the customer should be entitled to a refund as it was not as described.

If the game was faulty, such as bugs that meant you could not load the game without it crashing to desktop due to a known fault with the game, then you would be entitled to a refund as the game is not fit for purpose. Little bit more of a grey area when it comes to compatibility with say PC games where it may be a driver issue or user hardware may not meet the required specifications, but since we're talking about the Playstation Store then it's safe to assume that compatibility isn't an issue with Playstation games since we're talking about a console where "it just works".

 

If the game was faulty in a minor way, such as poor facial expressions and lip syncing when a character is talking then that would likely be considered a "Minor Fault", in which case you would only be eligible for a replacement or repair from the manufacturer (Game Developer), which would be offered through the form of a bug fix. If the manufacturer could not provide you with a replacement or repair (Developer doesn't fix the bug), then you may be entitled to a refund, or other alternative refund payment such as partial refund or store credit. (really not sure on this last one, never tested it, and I don't think it's ever really been tested with digital goods such as video games)

 

There would of course be some form of time limit and stipulations as to how long you have to claim a refund. Presumably also limits on play time as well like how Steam have it.

 

One of the main problems with Sony's current system apparently is that as soon as the game is downloaded it can no longer be refunded. Which in one of the articles I referenced to rightly pointed out; How do you know it's faulty until you download it?

It would be the equivalent of saying you could only get a refund on a washing machine while you're still standing in the whitegoods store where you bought it; if you take the washing machine home and install it then you are no longer entitled to a refund.

[Bouzoo]

I find it so ironic that Australia can't seem to control their carriers and ISP to provide proper services, yet is suing almost all major companies for something, and that's great. They seem to have some of best and worst consumer/anti-consumer laws. 

Outsider view. 

[mr moose]

14 minutes ago, Bouzoo said:

I find it so ironic that Australia can't seem to control their carriers and ISP to provide proper services, yet is suing almost all major companies for something, and that's great. They seem to have some of best and worst consumer/anti-consumer laws. 

Outsider view. 

What do you mean?  As far as I can tell our consumer laws are amongst the best int he world.  Telco's and ISP's are no exception.    In fact they got reeled in long ago,  software surrounding the internet is a whole new development that needs time and calculation to properly apply consumer law to.

[Spotty]

23 minutes ago, Bouzoo said:

I find it so ironic that Australia can't seem to control their carriers and ISP to provide proper services, yet is suing almost all major companies for something, and that's great. They seem to have some of best and worst consumer/anti-consumer laws. 

Outsider view. 

Actually, not true. At least not in regards with the ACCC (Australian Competition & Consumer Commission).
A few years ago the ACCC was given more powers to regulate the ISP industry and they've focused in particular on the speeds promised by the ISPs vs what is actually delivered. They've actually pushed for a lot of changes, and have been actively monitoring the speeds customers receive vs what the ISP is selling them. Some changes brought on by the ACCC include ISPs now having to advertise expected "Peak hour" speeds when advertising their plans rather than a "Theoretical Max" speed. This was in response to many customers unhappy that their service would slow to a crawl during peak hours (7pm-ish). Since they now have to advertise it, and no ISP wants to advertise that it's slower than the competition, the ISPs are working to ensure they have enough capacity on their network to provide their customer base even during peak times.

 

 

 

Additionally now ISPs aren't supposed to rip customers off by selling them high speed plans that their line cannot deliver. If a customer is on a more expensive high speed plan that they cannot make use of, the ISP is supposed to contact them and offer to change them to a cheaper plan. This is extremely important on FTTN and HFC connections where there are a lot of homes that cannot get the full advertised 100mbps promised speed. (For example I'm on FTTN which was promised to deliver 100/40, however because I'm at the other end of the street I only get get 50/15... ISPs aren't supposed to sell me 100/40 plans if they know that I can't get it, instead they are supposed to offer me the cheaper 50/20 plan).

The ACCC is actually doing a fair bit to help with internet services providers in Australia and is taking steps to better protect consumers.

 

There's plenty of things wrong with Australian internet, but it's more of an issue upstream rather than necessarily with the ISPs. Most of the issues are caused by the wholesale side of things (NBNCo) which are outside of the control of the Retail Service Providers (RSP/ISP) and are primarily the result of certain political decisions influencing which technologies are used (choosing to re-purpose the existing copper phone lines and Hybrid Fibre Coaxial network rather than using Fibre to the Premises), as well as issues such as dodgy NBNCo install technicians either not showing up or putting jobs in the "Too hard" basket and leaving homes without phone or internet access for months. However, this isn't the place for that discussion...

[Bouzoo]

Just now, mr moose said:

What do you mean?  As far as I can tell our consumer laws are amongst the best int he world.  Telco's and ISP's are no exception.    In fact they got reeled in long ago,  software surrounding the internet is a whole new development that needs time and calculation to properly apply consumer law to.

They absolutely are, what I mean is, probably bad wording, not anti-consuner, but imposing regulations on telco. As an outsider. 

[mr moose]

24 minutes ago, Bouzoo said:

They absolutely are, what I mean is, probably bad wording, not anti-consuner, but imposing regulations on telco. As an outsider. 

 

What regulations?  

[Salv8 (sam)]

1 hour ago, Bouzoo said:

They absolutely are, what I mean is, probably bad wording, not anti-consuner, but imposing regulations on telco. As an outsider. 

it's as simple as this, they didn't follow the law, they got punished, they are lucky that our government didn't fine them more

if you do business here, you follow the local laws, regardless where the fuck you come from, it doesn't matter if they are from the U.S or Africa, if you provide a service or product, you must follow the local laws while doing so.

fun fact: the most common ingredient used in cheeses in the U.S (usually used to preserve them for longer periods of time), is illegal in Australia due to the health concerns it poses on the Australian consumer.

our politicians may be useless arseholes but at least something good came out of their arse's they call a mouth.

[mr moose]

22 minutes ago, Salv8 (sam) said:

it's as simple as this, they didn't follow the law, they got punished, they are lucky that our government didn't fine them more

if you do business here, you follow the local laws, regardless where the fuck you come from, it doesn't matter if they are from the U.S or Africa, if you provide a service or product, you must follow the local laws while doing so.

fun fact: the most common ingredient used in cheeses in the U.S (usually used to preserve them for longer periods of time), is illegal in Australia due to the health concerns it poses on the Australian consumer.

our politicians may be useless arseholes but at least something good came out of their arse's they call a mouth.

Yep, the system, for all its frustrations and failures, somehow remains balanced for the most part. 

[Noctus]

On 5/29/2019 at 2:37 AM, Spotty said:

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus fuck you lot get shafted with pricing

[mr moose]

51 minutes ago, Noctus said:

Jesus fuck you lot get shafted with pricing

Don't forget everything is much more expensive here.  I'm paying A$60 (about US$40) for 25Mb/s unlimited data.  

 

Also we don't have the consumer base to bring the price down any further, so we are lucky to have it that cheap. 

[Stefan Payne]

Good!

And by the way: Who buys Games in PSN without a Sale?
They are more expensive than Retail Games. Retail is usually 59€ or even lower than that. Online Prices are 69,99€...

 

But what puzzles me is:

where is the EU??

Why is it Australia and not the European Union suing??

 

But yeah, the Refund Policy is non existant wich makes it even more useless to buy Games in the PSN Store...

The Retail Copies you can sell if you don't like them...

[suicidalfranco]

3 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

where is the EU??

 

Why is it Australia and not the European Union suing??

 

too busy policing thought

[Noctus]

14 hours ago, mr moose said:

Don't forget everything is much more expensive here.  I'm paying A$60 (about US$40) for 25Mb/s unlimited data.  

 

Also we don't have the consumer base to bring the price down any further, so we are lucky to have it that cheap. 

That's mental. For the equivalent of £8 more I get 75Mb. We have packages here for 3/400Mb for the same price too. Can't get that tho cos my building is old /"insert daft reason here" even tho I'm 70m from the switch. 

 

Always wanted to move to Au or at least have a home there. Do you guys still get heavily "tech taxed" there? Read years ago buying tech online to get shipped there gets heavily shafted with "tariffs". 

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Noctus said:

That's mental. For the equivalent of £8 more I get 75Mb. We have packages here for 3/400Mb for the same price too. Can't get that tho cos my building is old /"insert daft reason here" even tho I'm 70m from the switch. 

Again you are failing to take into account we don't have the population density to bring the prices down.  You guys have 66 million people in an area the size of Victoria.   Consumer base is very important in service viability.   Due to the structure of the NBN, ISP's (called RSP's) don't structure their price on location, it is purely based on data consumption across the board.  So even though those in the city can attain faster speeds (density makes newer infrastructure and less distance to nodes/exchanges), their price is still calculated on consumption.

 

4 hours ago, Noctus said:

Always wanted to move to Au or at least have a home there. Do you guys still get heavily "tech taxed" there? Read years ago buying tech online to get shipped there gets heavily shafted with "tariffs". 

 

Not just tech and not tariffs exactly, we pay more for everything because the country is actually very rich.  Wages are high and cost of living is high, thus business costs more.   It can be cheaper to import tech, however you basically lose all your consumer protections so if it is expensive and DOA you could be in for a very big headache.   I don;t know what it's like to live anywhere else, but knowing what I do I would say move here,  I personally think we have the best balance between regulation free trade and social security.   And our trains are very clean.

[RoseLuck462]

One time my PSN account was compromised and the person charged up a bunch of junk.

 

in the panic I notified my bank which refunded my money and I’m conducted a charge back from Sony, who then banned my account.

 

It took a while talking to support to get them to reverse the ban due to the circumstances.

 

Should something like that happen to you, you’re supposed to contact Sony first before your bank.

[Technous285]

On 5/31/2019 at 12:01 PM, mr moose said:

Don't forget everything is much more expensive here.  I'm paying A$60 (about US$40) for 25Mb/s unlimited data.

I'm now paying $80 AUD/month for 500GB over 4G Mobile Boradband (50-100+mbps down, 25-50mbps up depending on servers) with Optus, after being fed up with my ancient ADSL ($89.90/ AUD350GB/month, free Steam, iView & Netflix but only 8mbps down, 384kbps up) crapping out on me (and NBN isn't anywhere in sight for another year or so).

 

In a few months I'm gonna be shuffling my pre-paid phones over from Hellstra to Optus as well, since Optus provides more data at lower prices for a longer period (Telstra's best 4G pre-paid plan: $60/10GB for 28 days. Optus's best 4G pre-paid plan: $130/40GB for 365 days).

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Technous285 said:

I'm now paying $80 AUD/month for 500GB over 4G Mobile Boradband (50-100+mbps down, 25-50mbps up depending on servers) with Optus, after being fed up with my ancient ADSL ($89.90/ AUD350GB/month, free Steam, iView & Netflix but only 8mbps down, 384kbps up) crapping out on me (and NBN isn't anywhere in sight for another year or so).

 

In a few months I'm gonna be shuffling my pre-paid phones over from Hellstra to Optus as well, since Optus provides more data at lower prices for a longer period (Telstra's best 4G pre-paid plan: $60/10GB for 28 days. Optus's best 4G pre-paid plan: $130/40GB for 365 days).

That's not a bad deal for mobile.   It wasn't long ago that the average landline was only 500GB a month.

 

 

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

My biggest issue in the US is that you are not entitled to refund at all, and if you force a refund through your bank or card holder then they will ban your account.

And that is just anti consumer. 

[Noctus]

On 5/31/2019 at 10:53 PM, mr moose said:

Again you are failing to take into account we don't have the population density to bring the prices down.  You guys have 66 million people in an area the size of Victoria.   Consumer base is very important in service viability.   Due to the structure of the NBN, ISP's (called RSP's) don't structure their price on location, it is purely based on data consumption across the board.  So even though those in the city can attain faster speeds (density makes newer infrastructure and less distance to nodes/exchanges), their price is still calculated on consumption.

 

 

Hmm maybe, but i'm from Scotland. Just under a mil less in population of Vic, granted it's 3 times smaller sqkm. Surely the actual occupied space/pop density in Vic is close to scotlands ? Surely prices should be within each others ballpark? I dunno, just thinking aloud...

On 5/31/2019 at 10:53 PM, mr moose said:

Not just tech and not tariffs exactly, we pay more for everything because the country is actually very rich.  Wages are high and cost of living is high, thus business costs more.   It can be cheaper to import tech, however you basically lose all your consumer protections so if it is expensive and DOA you could be in for a very big headache.   I don;t know what it's like to live anywhere else, but knowing what I do I would say move here,  I personally think we have the best balance between regulation free trade and social security.   And our trains are very clean.

Well you've certainly made me reconsider, think it was the trains the tipped it You'd freeze in horror if you camp to glasgow haha. Best place in AU? 

[mr moose]

2 hours ago, Noctus said:

Hmm maybe, but i'm from Scotland. Just under a mil less in population of Vic, granted it's 3 times smaller sqkm. Surely the actual occupied space/pop density in Vic is close to scotlands ? Surely prices should be within each others ballpark? I dunno, just thinking aloud...

Population density really only effects speed here, not price.  Melbourne and suburbs (about 450 per sqr kilometer) compared to Glasgow with 3400. 

A good read from Ookla (to be used as a guide only) https://www.speedtest.net/reports/australia/    Because as every internet user knows it's not hard to find streets and blocks with absolutely shit cabling and a clusterfuck of NBN/politician/ISP blame games delaying everything. 

 

Once you get out in to genuinely rural areas the speed drops significantly, but the price doesn't change for NBN users.

 

 

Quote

Well you've certainly made me reconsider, think it was the trains the tipped it You'd freeze in horror if you camp to glasgow haha. Best place in AU? 

For me it's Melbourne, winters are cold and summers are hot,  the further north you go the winters are warm but the summers are hot and very humid (tropics),  you can always visit them but why anyone would want to live up there baffles me.   Victoria also has the best high country for camping, skiing, 4wding, motor bikes and even hunting if that's your thing.

 

If your into surf we have a shit load of beaches including bell's beach. 

 

And seriously our met system (even with all it's flaws) is fucking awesome and for the most part clean.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: I see some of the confusion. I have been saying population density with regard to price, my mistake sorry.  I mean total number of consumers. Because our population is low we don't have a buyers market so to speak.  Pop density means faster infrastructure because they have more customer in a smal local so they can afford better services.

[Noctus]

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

EDIT: I see some of the confusion. I have been saying population density with regard to price, my mistake sorry.  I mean total number of consumers. Because our population is low we don't have a buyers market so to speak.  Pop density means faster infrastructure because they have more customer in a smal local so they can afford better services.

Ah fair enough, but just the thought of what you get for your buck over there (speedwise) is horrifying to me haha An average of 90 bucks for 100mb in the middle of Melbourne city *shudders*

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

For me it's Melbourne, winters are cold and summers are hot,  the further north you go the winters are warm but the summers are hot and very humid (tropics),  you can always visit them but why anyone would want to live up there baffles me.   Victoria also has the best high country for camping, skiing, 4wding, motor bikes and even hunting if that's your thing.

 

If your into surf we have a shit load of beaches including bell's beach. 

 

And seriously our met system (even with all it's flaws) is fucking awesome and for the most part clean.

 

mmmm i don't mind tropics (though coming from glasgow anything warmer is a bonus lol) and warm winters are a bonus. If i ever moved, wonder how much it'd cost to import my bike. Couldn't be leaving my baby here !

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, Noctus said:

Ah fair enough, but just the thought of what you get for your buck over there (speedwise) is horrifying to me haha An average of 90 bucks for 100mb in the middle of Melbourne city *shudders*

Yeah, we'd all like it cheaper.   for reference our water bills are about the same ($100 a month)

5 hours ago, Noctus said:

mmmm i don't mind tropics (though coming from glasgow anything warmer is a bonus lol) and warm winters are a bonus. If i ever moved, wonder how much it'd cost to import my bike. Couldn't be leaving my baby here !

I have no idea, but I would expect in the thousands once you factor in registration and duties certificates etc.