AMD RX 5700 Navi New arch

[Humbug]

16 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

There is no confirmation whether this is GCN or not. In all likelihood it's an overhauled GCN with some big improvements (probably some backported stuff from whatever next gen arch they're working on). Considering the Linux kernel still refers to it as GCN it's probably a much improved GCN. Anandtech also says AMD kept quiet about what kind of beast this is and not mentioning the word GCN at all.

I'd bet that they have identified things that need to be redesigned and done radical redesigns but certainly not changed everything from the ground up. It looks like RDNA is the new macro architecture, and Navi the first iteration.

 

People are sometimes too hung up on the 'GCN' name. You see a lot of posts saying things like "as long as it is till gcn.... bla bla bla". Which doesn't make any sense. How much of it do they need to change before they can call it something else or before our preconceptions about gcn no longer line up...

[RejZoR]

33 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

There is no confirmation whether this is GCN or not. In all likelihood it's an overhauled GCN with some big improvements (probably some backported stuff from whatever next gen arch they're working on). Considering the Linux kernel still refers to it as GCN it's probably a much improved GCN. Anandtech also says AMD kept quiet about what kind of beast this is and not mentioning the word GCN at all.

Lol? Isn't it funny how everyone instantly believes it when NVIDIA says it's their all new technology even though it has always been just an evolution, but when AMD says it, everyone questions whether RDNA is still just GCN. So, Turing is just an updated Kepler then.

[Anomnomnomaly]

24 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Lol? Isn't it funny how everyone instantly believes it when NVIDIA says it's their all new technology even though it has always been just an evolution, but when AMD says it, everyone questions whether RDNA is still just GCN. So, Turing is just an updated Kepler then.

Fanbois will always fanboi.  

[Trixanity]

34 minutes ago, Humbug said:

I'd bet that they have identified things that need to be redesigned and done radical redesigns but certainly not changed everything from the ground up. It looks like RDNA is the new macro architecture, and Navi the first iteration.

 

People are sometimes too hung up on the 'GCN' name. You see a lot of posts saying things like "as long as it is till gcn.... bla bla bla". Which doesn't make any sense. How much of it do they need to change before they can call it something else or before our preconceptions about gcn no longer line up...

They've been sitting on GCN close to a decade. Sometimes you do need to change things. In fact GCN has been severely bottlenecked for a while. I don't see anyone championing Bulldozer despite the fact that with enough changes they could probably have made CMT work anyway.

 

If an arch doesn't look like GCN anymore that's when it's no longer GCN.

Is GCN fixable? Probably.

19 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

Lol? Isn't it funny how everyone instantly believes it when NVIDIA says it's their all new technology even though it has always been just an evolution, but when AMD says it, everyone questions whether RDNA is still just GCN. So, Turing is just an updated Kepler then.

When will you quit your rabid bullshit? Seriously. You're extremely confrontational at the slightest critique of AMD. Don't take things personally. 

 

GCN needs serious reworking to be viable going forward. There's so many problems with the arch. That's no secret. AMD should and probably is looking at what worked well in GCN and will be moving those things forward and cutting the dead weight. The time table is just very sensitive given how poorly they're doing in the market. You don't need to rework things that actually work hence Nvidia can iterate on the same shit if they want to. 

[Humbug]

23 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

They've been sitting on GCN close to a decade. Sometimes you do need to change things. In fact GCN has been severely bottlenecked for a while. I don't see anyone championing Bulldozer despite the fact that with enough changes they could probably have made CMT work anyway.

Yep, GCN needed to have it's bottlenecks alleviated no doubt. It had scaling issues. In the past there have been lots of improvements (e.g. Polaris is way better than Sea Islands). But this RDNA seems to be the most radical redesign since 2011 and to the point that AMD seems to be callling it a new macro-architecture which will probably span multiple generations of products with Navi being the first. 

23 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

If an arch doesn't look like GCN anymore that's when it's no longer GCN.

Ok so in your opinion does this still 'look' like GCN with 25% IPC gains, new CU design, new cache hierarchy, PCIE 4.0 and according to wccftech alleviation of the 4096 SP limit?

[Trixanity]

25 minutes ago, Humbug said:

Yep, GCN needed to have it's bottlenecks alleviated no doubt. It had scaling issues. In the past there have been lots of improvements (e.g. Polaris is way better than Sea Islands). But this RDNA seems to be the most radical redesign since 2011 and to the point that AMD seems to be callling it a new macro-architecture which will probably span multiple generations of products with Navi being the first. 

Ok so in your opinion does this still 'look' like GCN with 25% IPC gains, new CU design, new cache hierarchy, PCIE 4.0 and according to wccftech alleviation of the 4096 SP limit?

Can't tell right now because we don't have block diagrams and descriptions. Wccftech is still rumor mills. The issues went beyond scaling though and IPC improvements doesn't tell us much. It's easily possible to mess with a few things to compound improvements while still being largely the same.

 

Any R&D and subsequent performance data on Navi isn't wasted even if it's still GCN and they'll break from it in a year or two. It's too early to be sure where AMD is going and they're being awfully quiet about it which is worrying considering we already know that Zen runs deep.

[cj09beira]

could this mean that the rumors of 8 shader engines are true?, if so though gaming performance on amd favorable titles wouldn't improve much, on nvidia favorable titles it should be quite a bit better 

[Humbug]

7 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

Any R&D and subsequent performance data on Navi isn't wasted even if it's still GCN and they'll break from it in a year or two. It's too early to be sure where AMD is going and they're being awfully quiet about it which is worrying considering we already know that Zen runs deep.

The demo they showed was worrying. In Strange Brigade the Vega 64 already beats the RTX 2070. So the new Navi part they showed was basically only on par with Vega 64 performance.

 

Although it can still be impressive if it turns out to be a smaller part with ~48CUs performing like a Vega 64. 

[Trixanity]

18 minutes ago, Humbug said:

The demo they showed was worrying. In Strange Brigade the Vega 64 already beats the RTX 2070. So the new Navi part they showed was basically only on par with Vega 64 performance.

 

Although it can still be impressive if it turns out to be a smaller part with ~48CUs performing like a Vega 64. 

The performance itself isn't worrying. It's that we don't know the size of it. A small chip doing Vega 64 performance is great. The other bit is we don't know how big AMD can or will make them. People still want a halo chip. It doesn't sound like we'll get one before a year or so and even then we're not sure what we'll get. AMD seriously need to start thinking of showing off some new roadmaps. Both in regards to performance tiers within the family and what's next for arch iterations. The public simply knows too little and you can't do that the same way when you're firmly behind. Both investors and consumers need to feel confident in the company direction if they are to claw themselves into a more respectable second place than the one they hold now especially with Intel joining the race with a fat wallet.

 

Edit: Anandtech says the chip might be 275 mm^2 (based on photos and eye test) which I'm not sure whether it's good or bad. Sounds okay to me at first glance but I haven't done comparisons to other chips.

[MeatFeastMan]

Did anyone also pick up on when Lisa was talking about GCN, she mentioned 'new versions of Vega'. Is there something they have planned, maybe above Radeon VII? It's likely only talking about vega in APU's, but who knows...maybe they have something else ready and waiting.

 

 

[cj09beira]

guys Asus has finaly allowed us to get Ws boards , though its one of the only boards without 2.5gb or 5gb

https://edgeup.asus.com/2019/the-x570-motherboard-guide-ryzen-to-victory-with-pci-express-4-0/4/

4 minutes ago, MeatFeastMan said:

Did anyone also pick up on when Lisa was talking about GCN, she mentioned 'new versions of Vega'. Is there something they have planned, maybe above Radeon VII? It's likely only talking about vega in APU's, but who knows...maybe they have something else ready and waiting.

 

 

that got me quite confused, they could be talking about the new apus released in ces but that is technically already out,

they might be planning to release the full vega 20 gpu core (64cus) with pcie 4.0

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Humbug said:

Regarding the architecture.

 

On the one hand 1.25 times higher IPC for Navi compared to Vega is seriously impressive. That means that a hypothetical big Navi card with 60 CUs at Radeon 7 clocks and memory bandwidth levels will actually be a RTX 2080 ti competitor. This is without even considering the possibility of additional CUs...

 

On the other hand strange brigade is a cherry picked benchmark. Look at the numbers

https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-radeon-vii-16-gb-review,15.html

The Vega 64 is already beating the RTX 2070  in this game. So this particular new Navi part looks to be no faster than the Vega 64.

 

Putting all the above data together what we can gather from this is that the new architecture is more efficient than Vega in geometry performance and work done per clock cycle. But AMD has not yet been able to turn it into ground breaking SKUs. That could be because they are not hitting the clockspeeds they want, or that they are still have a way to go with driver optimization because this is such a new architecture.

 

Yep, based on this the new Navi card has Vega 64 performance, nothing more.

and lower powerdraw

ah well i'm just thinking... vega 64 + 10% at max 180W .. for 400 euro's i'm game... watercooler included according to saphhire soo

[DildorTheDecent]

11 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Please work with single slot brackets without modification.

Please work with single slot brackets without modification.

Inb4 double stacked video or "VR" connectors.

[Drak3]

Just now, DildorTheDecent said:

Inb4 double stacked video or "VR" connectors.

In that case I'm just gonna buy a Vega 56 or Radeon VII.

[RejZoR]

8 hours ago, Trixanity said:

They've been sitting on GCN close to a decade. Sometimes you do need to change things. In fact GCN has been severely bottlenecked for a while. I don't see anyone championing Bulldozer despite the fact that with enough changes they could probably have made CMT work anyway.

 

If an arch doesn't look like GCN anymore that's when it's no longer GCN.

Is GCN fixable? Probably.

When will you quit your rabid bullshit? Seriously. You're extremely confrontational at the slightest critique of AMD. Don't take things personally. 

 

GCN needs serious reworking to be viable going forward. There's so many problems with the arch. That's no secret. AMD should and probably is looking at what worked well in GCN and will be moving those things forward and cutting the dead weight. The time table is just very sensitive given how poorly they're doing in the market. You don't need to rework things that actually work hence Nvidia can iterate on the same shit if they want to. 

The MUH GCN is really getting on my nerves, that's all. Was waiting for someone to call me AMD fanboy again tho...

[Taf the Ghost]

8 hours ago, Humbug said:

The demo they showed was worrying. In Strange Brigade the Vega 64 already beats the RTX 2070. So the new Navi part they showed was basically only on par with Vega 64 performance.

 

Although it can still be impressive if it turns out to be a smaller part with ~48CUs performing like a Vega 64. 

The 5700 is very likely the 56CU design we've heard about. Mostly because it's 25% faster performance per clock than Vega and Strange Brigade is one of the few titles that the Vega 64 = 2070 in. At the 275mm² range, that's a good, mid-range chip. The 2070 is a 445mm² die, though on a larger node.

 

Though, it should be noted, that the 5700 is probably a 499USD part. AMD's sales volume above 300USD doesn't seem affected by much of anything (it's just worse than Nvidia), so they're probably going to do the margin play this cycle. Hopefully will have HDMI 2.1 and VRR along with other new tech.

[Stefan Payne]

8 hours ago, Humbug said:

The demo they showed was worrying. In Strange Brigade the Vega 64 already beats the RTX 2070. So the new Navi part they showed was basically only on par with Vega 64 performance.

 

Although it can still be impressive if it turns out to be a smaller part with ~48CUs performing like a Vega 64. 

Its not as we don't know how much Shaders the Chip had.

With 40CU its awesome.

With 64COU its not so much.

But they also said that:

1.25 performance per clock 
1.5 times performance/Watt

 

When compared to VEGA...

That said, at the same clock we're talking at around 48 Shaders, however, they also mentioned that NAVI clocks way higher than VEGA...

So lets assume roughly 20% higher clocks (~1,8-1,9GHz) and we're at 40CU.

 

You know what has around 40 CU?? 

Polaris...

Though Polaris is already just 232mm²...

 

That's a very optimistic guess, so take it with a sack of salt...

[Stefan Payne]

20 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

The 5700 is very likely the 56CU design we've heard about. Mostly because it's 25% faster performance per clock than Vega and Strange Brigade is one of the few titles that the Vega 64 = 2070 in. At the 275mm² range, that's a good, mid-range chip. The 2070 is a 445mm² die, though on a larger node.

 

Though, it should be noted, that the 5700 is probably a 499USD part. AMD's sales volume above 300USD doesn't seem affected by much of anything (it's just worse than Nvidia), so they're probably going to do the margin play this cycle. Hopefully will have HDMI 2.1 and VRR along with other new tech.

I'm not sure about that.

I think its better to wait and see. Its only around 2 Weeks until we know more.

 

But think about this:
When was the last time that AMD's lineup ended with x70 (3 numbers) or x700 (4 Numbers)??

You can argue that it was 17 Years ago...

But after that, when was 7 the high end??

 

Quote

Though, it should be noted, that the 5700 is probably a 499USD part. 

I highly doubt that.

399 maybe, 499 no way.

[Firewrath9]

1 minute ago, Stefan Payne said:

I'm not sure about that.

I think its better to wait and see. Its only around 2 Weeks until we know more.

 

But think about this:
When was the last time that AMD's lineup ended with x70 or x700??

You can argue that it was 17 Years ago...

But after that, when was 7 the high end??

7970?

5 years?

[Stefan Payne]

2 minutes ago, Firewrath9 said:

7970?

5 years?

7970??

RLY??

You know there was a 7950, 7870, 7850 as well??

The x70 means the Edition inside the Lineup...

[Taf the Ghost]

8 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

I'm not sure about that.

I think its better to wait and see. Its only around 2 Weeks until we know more.

 

But think about this:
When was the last time that AMD's lineup ended with x70 (3 numbers) or x700 (4 Numbers)??

You can argue that it was 17 Years ago...

But after that, when was 7 the high end??

 

I highly doubt that.

399 maybe, 499 no way.

There'll be more Navi. "Big Navi"/Navi 20 will be next year, though.

 

As for the price, AMD will probably sell as many at 499 as 399, so they're going to price it at that level. AMD would have sales data on the V56 and V64, which will dictate how things go. I would suspect these will filter down around 449USD for "slightly better/slightly cheaper" than the RTX 2070. The community having killed RTX tech with memes already.

 

The Sapphire Rep's statements (the actual ones, not the implied information) point to the 5700 being that 399/499 part. We'll see in 2 weeks.

[S w a t s o n]

12 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

There'll be more Navi. "Big Navi"/Navi 20 will be next year, though.

 

As for the price, AMD will probably sell as many at 499 as 399, so they're going to price it at that level

No way AMD sells RX5700 for $499 (reference), they can try to reap margin but it wont move at that price. People wont be able to defend the price using HBM and die size arguments like they did on Vega. I do think the $100 will make a difference, considering rtx 2070 is available at 499 before the refresh we are expecting

[Firewrath9]

? its still x70?

is a 1070 a x70 card?

29 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

7970??

RLY??

You know there was a 7950, 7870, 7850 as well??

The x70 means the Edition inside the Lineup...

 

[Stefan Payne]

37 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

There'll be more Navi. "Big Navi"/Navi 20 will be next year, though.

Yes and that will be the 6k Series, as that is what the OEMs demand.

It won't be 5800. 

 

That means that the RX 5700 is a smaller, cheaper version and there is something above it. AMD also showed only a mid range chip exactly in the middle at CES, with one beeing released yestarday/today...

 

37 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

As for the price, AMD will probably sell as many at 499 as 399, so they're going to price it at that level.

There will be a 499€ card but it won't be the RX 5700.

It will be the 5800 or 5900.

AMD already BTFO'd every speculation about Zen2...

 

NOTHING what was claimed was true. Even Gamers Nexus got it wrong and got shown the middle finger by AMD.

 

37 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

AMD would have sales data on the V56 and V64, which will dictate how things go. I would suspect these will filter down around 449USD for "slightly better/slightly cheaper" than the RTX 2070. The community having killed RTX tech with memes already.

Yes, but was the RX470, 570 or back in the day Radeon HD 4770, 5770 high end?
Or was there something above that?

 

Also: WHere did the Claim that Big NAVI will be next year come from? 

The thing we assume is that Navi was delayed.

But what is if it got delayed because they were able make a bigger NAVI Die?

Or trolled us as well and were going higher end???

OR could improve some things??

YOu know maybe the "we could do this, it would set us back 3-6 Months but give 5-15%".

Lisa: DO IT! We do Radeon 7 in the meantime.

 

37 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

The Sapphire Rep's statements (the actual ones, not the implied information) point to the 5700 being that 399/499 part. We'll see in 2 weeks.

With the Information we have, its safe to assume that the 5700 is the 399€ part and the 499€ part will be announced in two weeks.

RX 5800 or RX5900 is the most likely.

[Taf the Ghost]

59 minutes ago, S w a t s o n said:

No way AMD sells RX5700 for $499 (reference), they can try to reap margin but it wont move at that price. People wont be able to defend the price using HBM and die size arguments like they did on Vega. I do think the $100 will make a difference, considering rtx 2070 is available at 499 before the refresh we are expecting

From the outer perspective, I do agree, however I've never seen the Vega sales data. Though seeing as V64 is currently 399USD, I'll go with 449USD for the standard card with models above it.