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Nvidia trying to trademark..... numbers?

LukaH
2 hours ago, RejZoR said:

Well, numbers are trademarkable. For example, Peugeot has a trademark on numbering scheme with single or double zero in the middle like: 106, 206, 306, 406 etc and double zeroes like 3008, 4008, 5008 etc. No other car manufacturer can use it. Or Porsche with its iconic "911".

To my understanding, numbers by themselves can't be trademarked. If we go right back to an early example, Intel created the Pentium brand because they couldn't stop AMD from calling their CPUs a 486 like an Intel 486. So 586 couldn't be protected either, and they moved to words.

 

1 hour ago, MeatFeastMan said:

AMD are playing a very clever game by trying to do 3060,3070,3080. It's simple. The people who don't have a clue will automatically assume that the bigger the number, the better it is.

In other words, AMD are exploiting the ignorant.

 

1 hour ago, Spotty said:

Numbers can be trademarked.

If there was a vacuum cleaner with a model number 747 then Boeing would have a hard time arguing in court, but if a direct competitor released the 747 commercial jet airplane? Yeah, they'll get shit on in court in about 5 minutes.

It is possible to have the same or very similar trademarks if the products are in different areas that are unlikely to be confused. Compare Polo the car to Polo the mint (don't know if the latter is a UK only thing).

 

I'm still not sure if a number by itself can be trademarked. A combination of letters and numbers would have a higher chance, or if there is a particular design associated with it. There is a provision in trademark law that gives you protection from similar names also, in case people try to get around copying by making it slightly different. It is probably this route that nvidia will go down.

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1 hour ago, Spotty said:

Okay, if you would prefer another example..
What if Ford makes a sports car called the 911?
What if AMD names the Zen2 CPUs the R5 9600, R7 9700, R9 9900?
What if Airbus makes an Airbus 747 commercial plane?

What if Playstation made the Playstation 360?


Numbers can be trademarked.

If there was a vacuum cleaner with a model number 747 then Boeing would have a hard time arguing in court, but if a direct competitor released the 747 commercial jet airplane? Yeah, they'll get shit on in court in about 5 minutes.

 

Imagine the product names...
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Yeah, honestly I don't mind the CPUs that much. The R3/R5/R7 is really only minor and the "R7 1700" isn't going to be confused for an i7 9700k any time soon. I'd also argue that enough time has passed since the i7 2700 that the R7 2700 isn't really going to be confused for it either. 
It's mainly the chipsets using X399 and B350 that are the more annoying things AMD have done.

Numbers can be trademarked if they're iconic and almost (if not outright) synonymous with something like 911 with Porsche or 747 with Boeing. The rest is more doubtful. The problem is that that 3080 isn't an iconic name for Nvidia. It changes every new product launch. If they wanted it to become iconic then they should call their graphics cards 3080 henceforth to make it a trademark. They can't just say "you can't name it 3080 because we want to use those numbers maybe some time next year".

 

Anyway, this is basically just a rumor at this point. So no need to get your panties in a twist just yet.

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1 minute ago, porina said:

I'm still not sure if a number by itself can be trademarked. A combination of letters and numbers would have a higher chance, or if there is a particular design associated with it. There is a provision in trademark law that gives you protection from similar names also, in case people try to get around copying by making it slightly different. It is probably this route that nvidia will go down.

Yeah, I'm not entirely certain about the trademark laws around it either to be honest. IANAL.
Obviously Nvidia's legal team thinks that there's grounds enough to at least try applying for it. Even if it's just Nvidia trying to send a message to AMD that they would be willing to pursue legal avenues if AMD uses the naming scheme. Unfortunately it's not uncommon for large companies to bully smaller companies with legal action through the courts, even if they know they would never win. 

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10 minutes ago, Spotty said:

Yeah, I'm not entirely certain about the trademark laws around it either to be honest. IANAL.
Obviously Nvidia's legal team thinks that there's grounds enough to at least try applying for it. Even if it's just Nvidia trying to send a message to AMD that they would be willing to pursue legal avenues if AMD uses the naming scheme. Unfortunately it's not uncommon for large companies to bully smaller companies with legal action through the courts, even if they know they would never win. 

Forget future nvidia products for now and if they might eventually do a 3080. Let's assume nvidia have a trademark for RTX 2080 (I don't know if they do or not). I think they'd have a good chance at arguing that if a product in the same category (video cards) comes out called RX 3080 it is substantially similar and intended to cause confusion, and shouldn't be allowed.

 

The question then turns around, why didn't Intel do same? I can only speculate that mobo chipsets are not really well known outside of enthusiast circles, whereas the GPU is a more significant item, like a CPU.

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23 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

They can't just say "you can't name it 3080 because we want to use those numbers maybe some time next year".

That's a good point. To counter that you could argue that GPU are usually in development stages years ahead of the public release. When you look at the release schedule for Nvidia over the past few generations it has been a new generation every 2 years or so.

Quote

Tesla = 2008
Fermi = 2010
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Maxwell = 2014
Pascal = 2016
Turing = 2018

 

Wouldn't be hard to believe for a release date for the RTX 3080 series some time in 2020, which is only 7 months away. Considering how, luke-warm the reception for RTX cards was at launch it wouldn't surprise me if Nvidia accelerated their release schedule a bit, especially if AMD can compete with Nvidia's Turing in price/performance with their Navi GPUs. So behind closed doors Nvidia could already be working on at least the planning stages of RTX 3000 series graphics cards.


If Nvidia could possibly demonstrate that they already have actual tangible plans to use the RTX 3000 series naming scheme, such as internal documents already referring to the upcoming series as "RTX 3080" then they might possibly have more of a leg to stand on in that regards. (IANAL, not sure how it works, pure speculation from a desk jockey!)
The RTX 4000 and RTX 5000 which are likely years away are probably pushing it though.

 

23 minutes ago, Trixanity said:

Numbers can be trademarked if they're iconic and almost (if not outright) synonymous with something like 911 with Porsche or 747 with Boeing. The rest is more doubtful.

That's actually a really good point as well. I guess it really comes down to how much that product name consumers associate with the product and brand.

 

Just now, porina said:

The question then turns around, why didn't Intel do same? I can only speculate that mobo chipsets are not really well known outside of enthusiast circles, whereas the GPU is a more significant item, like a CPU.

Maybe it's since Intel wasn't actually using the X399 or B350 chipset naming scheme (only planning to based on past naming trends) they might not have had enough of a claim to the name? Nvidia may face the same problems.

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These fucking dipshits fighting over their stupid naming conventions have officially killed my faith in humanity: prepare do die.

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15 minutes ago, porina said:

why didn't Intel do same? I can only speculate that mobo chipsets are not really well known outside of enthusiast circles, whereas the GPU is a more significant item, like a CPU.

Because AMD's current scheme is simply a modification of their last scheme's progression that existed prior to Intel's scheme.

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3 hours ago, Arika S said:

NVidia shouldn't be able to trademark it. doesn't make AMD any less of a dick for doing it

I dont see why not? They are trying to protect their naming of their graphics card. I would wager they have a trademark for rtx and gtx so I dont see why they could have one for the other parts if the name in their graphics cards. This is a very simple matter. Nvidia wants to protect against the competition from naming their stuff similar to theirs. That is the entire point of trademarks existing. I think people are being ridiculous if they think its not ok to trademark the names of your product. This can really only help the consumer because it should reduce confusion. 

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Just now, Brooksie359 said:

I dont see why not? They are trying to protect their naming of their graphics card. I would wager they have a trademark for rtx and gtx so I dont see why they could have one for the other parts if the name in their graphics cards. This is a very simple matter. Nvidia wants to protect against the competition from naming their stuff similar to theirs. That is the entire point of trademarks existing. I think people are being ridiculous if they think its not ok to trademark the names of your product. This can really only help the consumer because it should reduce confusion. 

Numbers themselves cannot be trademarked.

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Honestly, this thread is full of such toxic responses from both regular users and moderators which is quite dissapointing.

 

Back to the topic at hand: I think Nvidia is taking this too far and overreacting and/or borderline trying to bully AMD into submission. I hope it doesn't work because it might set a dangerous precedent for how to name products. Companies name products similarly to others so uninformed consumers can easily tell at a glance what products compete with each other or what products are similar.

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1 minute ago, AluminiumTech said:

Honestly, this thread is full of such toxic responses from both regular users and moderators which is quite dissapointing.

 

Back to the topic at hand: I think Nvidia is taking this too far and overreacting and/or borderline trying to bully AMD into submission. I hope it doesn't work because it might set a dangerous precedent for how to name products. Companies name products similarly to others so uninformed consumers can easily tell at a glance what products compete with each other or what products are similar.

it is more likely to confuse than to help tbh. the 80 series from AMD and the 80 series from nvidia don't compete with each other so I would say that in this case it would be misleading. 

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17 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Because AMD's current scheme is simply a modification of their last scheme's progression that existed prior to Intel's scheme.

From my recollection, we had the HD 6000 series, HD 7000, then we went to the R_ 200 series, 300, 400, 500, throw in Vega. If they do indeed go to 3000 in a similar format to nvidia naming, they would get 100% of the negative karma from me. I do recognise they have had _80 numbers in their cards, it's just putting 30 in front of it that's the problem.

16 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

Numbers themselves cannot be trademarked.

Which is my understanding too, but add some letters and you might have something.

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Is i1080 trademarked? perhaps leverage their connections to Apple and establish a fantastic coutner troll move.

 

 

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1 minute ago, porina said:

From my recollection, we had the HD 6000 series, HD 7000, then we went to the R_ 200 series, 300, 400, 500, throw in Vega. If they do indeed go to 3000 in a similar format to nvidia naming, they would get 100% of the negative karma from me. I do recognise they have had _80 numbers in their cards, it's just putting 30 in front of it that's the problem.

Not talking about GPUs, I mean chipsets and CPU tiering.

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1 minute ago, Drak3 said:

Not talking about GPUs, I mean chipsets and CPU tiering.

Doh, got myself confused there. 

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Just now, porina said:

Doh, got myself confused there. 

Yeah I don't think the 3000 series of years past ever had anything close to 30XX. From what I can find, it started at 34XX.

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Just now, Drak3 said:

Yeah I don't think the 3000 series of years past ever had anything close to 30XX. From what I can find, it started at 34XX.

With only a finite number space, unless you want to get really silly, they're kinda wrapping around and potentially using each other's numbers from different eras. That's ok with me. Trademark law I understand has an abandonment feature in it. In short, use it or lose it. Older trademarks if they existed at all may have long expired.

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3 hours ago, Trixanity said:

There is a difference between a trademark like Big Mac and generic numbers. 

2 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

you cannot trademark a number unless it's part of a brand name.

1 hour ago, Drak3 said:

Numbers themselves cannot be trademarked.

1 hour ago, porina said:

To my understanding, numbers by themselves can't be trademarked.


A few people have been stating that it's not possible to trade mark a number.

 


As per the website for the European Union Intellectual Property Office's (EUIPO), which is where Nvidia submitted its claim

Quote

What can be an EU trade mark

An EU trade mark can consist of any signs, in particular words (including personal names), or designs, letters, numerals, colours, the shape of goods, or of the packaging of goods or sounds.

https://euipo.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/what-can-be-an-eu-trade-mark

 

Quote

At EUIPO you can register

Word mark

A word mark consists exclusively of words or letters, numerals, other standard typographic characters or a combination thereof that can be typed

https://euipo.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/trade-mark-definition



As per Australian trade mark laws (not really relevant in this situation since it was submitted in EU, but it's where I live so what I'm more familiar with)...

Spoiler

 

Quote

What is a trade mark?

A trade mark is a way of distinguishing the goods or services of your business from those of other businesses. It gives you exclusive rights to commercially use, license or sell the trade mark. This means that no one else in Australia can commercially use your trade mark within the class of goods and services it's registered under.

 

Be aware that registration of a business name, company name or domain name does not in itself give you any exclusive ownership or proprietary rights to use the business name—only a trade mark can give you that kind of protection.

 

Any feature (or combination of features) that distinguishes your goods or services from others can be registered as a trade mark, such as a letter, number, word, phrase, sound, smell, shape, logo, picture or aspect of packaging.

 

If your business is bringing a unique product or service to market and will be using some form of branding such as your business name painted on the side of your truck, a trade mark is a legally enforceable way to protect it.

https://www.business.gov.au/registrations/intellectual-property/trade-marks

 

Quote

Your trade mark, often called a brand, is your identity. It’s the way you show your customers who you are.

It might be your corporate logo, a jingle you use in an advertisement, your business name painted on the side of your truck or your signage or packaging.

A trade mark can also be a:

  • word (in a plain font or a ‘fancy’ font)
  • phrase
  • letter
  • number
  • logo
  • picture
  • aspect of packaging
  • or combination of the above...

https://www.ipaustralia.gov.au/trade-marks/understanding-trade-marks/types-of-trade-marks

 


Not sure if things are different in the US or other regions which might be what is causing the confusion?

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Just now, Spotty said:

Not sure if things are different in the US or other regions which might be what is causing the confusion?

It is different in the US. Numbers alone cannot be trademarked here. It needs to be part of the name.

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2 minutes ago, Spotty said:


A few people have been stating that it's not possible to trade mark a number.

 


As per the website for the European Union Intellectual Property Office's (EUIPO), which is where Nvidia submitted its claim

https://euipo.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/what-can-be-an-eu-trade-mark

 

https://euipo.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/trade-mark-definition



As per Australian trade mark laws (not really relevant in this situation since it was submitted in EU, but it's where I live so what I'm more familiar with)...


Not sure if things are different in the US or other regions which might be what is causing the confusion?

The problem is you interpret it at face value. You can't trademark just any number. You can't apply for a trademark for 34983049341 just because you want to. You need to prove that it's part of your brand and I don't think Nvidia can prove that the numbers 3080 is part of their brand. GTX 3080 maybe. GTX certainly. Likewise RTX. But they can't prohibit AMD from launching RX3080 preemptively. I doubt it'll hold up in court.

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2 minutes ago, Spotty said:

A few people have been stating that it's not possible to trade mark a number.


As per the website for the European Union Intellectual Property Office's (EUIPO), which is where Nvidia submitted its claim


Not sure if things are different in the US or other regions which might be what is causing the confusion?

I may be skewed since I only have limited examples, and things may not be identical worldwide. Still, also to my understanding just because you want something as a trademark, it doesn't necessarily mean it will be granted. It has to be sufficiently identifiable. So for example, try trademarking the number 1 by itself, you're not going to get far. If you were to make an image of the number one, in a particular typeface, colour or other design, that's more likely to get granted.

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53 minutes ago, Drak3 said:

It is different in the US. Numbers alone cannot be trademarked here. It needs to be part of the name.

Ah, okay!
I managed to find some info on US trade marks from the USPTO (United States Patent & Trademark Office) https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/BasicFacts.pdf

Quote

TRADEMARK, COPYRIGHT, OR PATENT

What is a trademark or service mark?

• A trademark is generally a word, phrase, symbol, or design, or a combination thereof, that identifies and distinguishes the source of the goods of one party from those of others.

It doesn't mention numbers like the EUIPO, so it would be safe to assume that numbers by themselves probably aren't covered in USA. Could explain why Nvidia hasn't lodged a similar application (that I'm aware of) in the USA.

 

 

@Trixanity @porina I agree. It's possible to trade mark numbers in the EU, but that does not guarantee that Nvidia would be successful in their application to trade mark those specific numbers. Other criteria still needs to be met for eligibility, and AMD could even challenge the application if they really want to.

Little off-topic, but also related...
Interestingly the trademark application Nvidia submitted for "Nvidia Kepler" a few months ago has been opposed by The German Aerospace Center (German: Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt e.V.) on the grounds of " Identity of marks and G&S Likelihood of confusion "

Because consumers confusing a graphics card for a German Satellite network is such an easy mistake to make :D

Edited by Spotty

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like the article says, the same could be said about nvidia rtx and rx are similar.

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1 minute ago, TOMPPIX said:

like the article says, the same could be said about nvidia rtx and rx are similar.

Except AMD has been using RX for years now, so it would likely backfire on Nvidia.

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Didn't Intel rename the i586 to Pentium because courts ruled that you can't trademark numbers or something? I can't see this going through.

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