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DR4GONSTEAR

My brother thinks his TV is better than my computer

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Posted · Original PosterOP

TL;DR This is just regarding watching videos. My brother thinks you need to adjust brightness and have the ability to render HDR to make a PC look less like a "PC plugged into a TV", where as his Xbox and TV's YouTube app display everything better.

 

I'm not sure where to post this, but I need help explaining a few things, because every time I go to explain display calibration and that computers are basically a bigger and more powerful thing that what's in his smart OLED TV, I get a "Yeah but" in response. Any assistance is appreciated, especially if there is a better place to post this.

 

I'll set the scene: I have a younger brother that games on console. That in itself is fine, because I infrequently play online with him, but recently he has bought a new TV. He tells me how awesome his 4K TV is when he watches 4K Netflix, YouTube and plays 4K games on his Xbox One X. When I say that my computer can do all that, (i7 8700, RTX2070, 32GB RAM, 970Pro, etc) he is sceptical and the next time we hang out I bring my computer and we watch a movie in 1080p via HDMI. The next week I get this text after organising another movie night: "[...] bring it on a USB [...] and we can try play it directly through the TV, might make it look better." This bewilders me, and I tell him I can't because the files are over 4GB in size and won't fit on a FAT32 drive. I also scoff that he compared his, albeit expensive, TV to a desktop computer. His response is just that "It looked washed out last week, like it was on a computer screen. When I stream things straight off Netflix or Blu-ray it looks crisp as." I don't understand what he means by washed out, because the colours looked true to life to me, but I think he is used to the over vibrancy in video games. Can't be sure.

Now, the video files we are watching aren't 4k, so I get it can't be compared to 4k footage. But the bitrates are 15-20Mbps, with true colours and minimal artefacts. It's a very good image on a 1080p display, like my TV at home, and it's equally as colour accurate and artefact free on his TV. When I say that his TV isn't magic he responds "Well no because your computer's display settings such as brightness, contrast, sharpness, and ability to render HDR or 4K would affect the way it looks." Even going as far as saying Netflix looks better on his TV than when someone plugs in a laptop. "It looks like a laptop on a TV." I don't know how to respond to this. Could it be that laptops have colour profiles because their display is incorporated into the device and that's how you calibrate laptop displays?

 

I'm lost for words. I've tried looking up colour calibration, and showing him that it's all display dependent. I can't even find anyone talking about the 2070's ability to "render HDR or 4K", except that it can handle a 2D Texture Size up to 131072x65536 and is HDR ready. But how old would I have to go to find something that wasn't HDR ready? Does the 2070 support HDMI 2.1 and Display Port 1.4? I've found the Windows HD Colour Settings, but that just says if the connected display can do HDR and WCG. I've tried showing him videos on YouTube in 4k, but when the "YouTube compression" artefacts start showing up in both the computer and the TV he starts saying that Netflix on his TV never has those types of artefacts.

 

I don't know how to explain to a 25 year old, who only uses his Xbox to game and watch movies, and the TV app to watch YouTube, that the cost of a computer isn't a waste. It's like he doesn't even know what a computer is, except that his Xbox One X must be a really good PC for really cheap because it looks "better" and his TV is amazing because it displays the best Netflix content. I render videos and music. I game and often dual screen. I basically need a computer to multi task. I don't know enough about the technology to tell him he doesn't know what he is talking about.

 

Next time I go around, I'm going to take -IMAX Pre Show 2014- that I downloaded in lossless 4k quality, and the YouTube link for the same video IMAX Pre Show 4K, because then I'll have a video that fits on a USB and that's on YouTube so he can finally understand that it's the content that dictates how good the image is. Not the device playing it.

 

Lastly, how does the Xbox render 4K and cost a quarter the price of a new gaming pc that would crush 4k? I know previous consoles would upscale, but apparently the Xbox One X naively does 4k.

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Not sure if I'm overseeing things, but you're trying to say 1080p video looks better than 4K because the machine doing the playback is more powerful?


"What's under the heatsink?" ep1, "Why it's not as good as it seem?" AMD fanboy edition out, episode 2 "Why my gaming board is a scam?" Intel fanboy edition coming soon (this is a link)

Hardware specs below

CPU: i7-2600K 4745MHz 1.408V (software) --> 1.4?V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 103.2MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 2133MHz 10-11-11-30 CR2, custom: 2200MHz 10-11-10-26 CR1 tRFC:230 tREFI:14000) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual (Super Jetstream vbios, +70(2025-2088MHz)/+400(8.8Gbps)) SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 1 exhaust Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (150Hz max w/ DP, 121Hz max w/ HDMI) TN panel Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V core & cache, 50mV SA undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (+80/+450, 1650MHz~1750MHz 0.78V~0.85V) RAM: 8+8GB DDR4-2400 18-17-17-39 2T Storage: 1TB HP EX920 PCIe x4 M.2 SSD + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172), 128GB Toshiba PCIe x2 M.2 SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) gone cooking externally Monitor: 1080p 126Hz IPS G-sync

 

Desktop benching:

Cinebench R15 Single thread:168 Multi-thread: 833 

SuperPi (v1.5 from Techpowerup, PI value output) 16K: 0.100s 1M: 8.255s 32M: 7m 45.93s

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41 minutes ago, DR4GONSTEAR said:

Lastly, how does the Xbox render 4K and cost a quarter the price of a new gaming pc that would crush 4k? I know previous consoles would upscale, but apparently the Xbox One X naively does 4k.

You have a huge block of text so I'll take this as your TL;DR:

While the xbox one x cost a quarter of the cost of a new gaming pc, it can't maintain 60+fps on the maximum settings. I'm not sure if it even does 60fps but some games may just be 30fps, on top of that a lot of games (while in 4k resolution) won't be able to push "ULTRA" or the best graphics that a well-built computer can.

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42 minutes ago, DR4GONSTEAR said:

TL;DR This is just regarding watching videos. My brother thinks you need to adjust brightness and have the ability to render HDR to make a PC look less like a "PC plugged into a TV", where as his Xbox and TV's YouTube app display everything better.

 

I'm not sure where to post this, but I need help explaining a few things, because every time I go to explain display calibration and that computers are basically a bigger and more powerful thing that what's in his smart OLED TV, I get a "Yeah but" in response. Any assistance is appreciated, especially if there is a better place to post this.

 

I'll set the scene: I have a younger brother that games on console. That in itself is fine, because I infrequently play online with him, but recently he has bought a new TV. He tells me how awesome his 4K TV is when he watches 4K Netflix, YouTube and plays 4K games on his Xbox One X. When I say that my computer can do all that, (i7 8700, RTX2070, 32GB RAM, 970Pro, etc) he is sceptical and the next time we hang out I bring my computer and we watch a movie in 1080p via HDMI. The next week I get this text after organising another movie night: "[...] bring it on a USB [...] and we can try play it directly through the TV, might make it look better." This bewilders me, and I tell him I can't because the files are over 4GB in size and won't fit on a FAT32 drive. I also scoff that he compared his, albeit expensive, TV to a desktop computer. His response is just that "It looked washed out last week, like it was on a computer screen. When I stream things straight off Netflix or Blu-ray it looks crisp as." I don't understand what he means by washed out, because the colours looked true to life to me, but I think he is used to the over vibrancy in video games. Can't be sure.

Now, the video files we are watching aren't 4k, so I get it can't be compared to 4k footage. But the bitrates are 15-20Mbps, with true colours and minimal artefacts. It's a very good image on a 1080p display, like my TV at home, and it's equally as colour accurate and artefact free on his TV. When I say that his TV isn't magic he responds "Well no because your computer's display settings such as brightness, contrast, sharpness, and ability to render HDR or 4K would affect the way it looks." Even going as far as saying Netflix looks better on his TV than when someone plugs in a laptop. "It looks like a laptop on a TV." I don't know how to respond to this. Could it be that laptops have colour profiles because their display is incorporated into the device and that's how you calibrate laptop displays?

 

I'm lost for words. I've tried looking up colour calibration, and showing him that it's all display dependent. I can't even find anyone talking about the 2070's ability to "render HDR or 4K", except that it can handle a 2D Texture Size up to 131072x65536 and is HDR ready. But how old would I have to go to find something that wasn't HDR ready? Does the 2070 support HDMI 2.1 and Display Port 1.4? I've found the Windows HD Colour Settings, but that just says if the connected display can do HDR and WCG. I've tried showing him videos on YouTube in 4k, but when the "YouTube compression" artefacts start showing up in both the computer and the TV he starts saying that Netflix on his TV never has those types of artefacts.

 

I don't know how to explain to a 25 year old, who only uses his Xbox to game and watch movies, and the TV app to watch YouTube, that the cost of a computer isn't a waste. It's like he doesn't even know what a computer is, except that his Xbox One X must be a really good PC for really cheap because it looks "better" and his TV is amazing because it displays the best Netflix content. I render videos and music. I game and often dual screen. I basically need a computer to multi task. I don't know enough about the technology to tell him he doesn't know what he is talking about.

 

Next time I go around, I'm going to take -IMAX Pre Show 2014- that I downloaded in lossless 4k quality, and the YouTube link for the same video IMAX Pre Show 4K, because then I'll have a video that fits on a USB and that's on YouTube so he can finally understand that it's the content that dictates how good the image is. Not the device playing it.

 

Lastly, how does the Xbox render 4K and cost a quarter the price of a new gaming pc that would crush 4k? I know previous consoles would upscale, but apparently the Xbox One X naively does 4k.

generally, TVs have been tuned to have more pleasing visuals(I'm not talking about color accuracy just how it looks)

and the fact that its an oled(with its deep blacks and very vibrant colors)adds to the already great movie watching experience

so yeah compared to a good 4k OLED your desktop monitor will look washed out it most cases

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I think the problem here if i've read it all correctly, is that Your PC may be setup to output videos on YOUR TV/monitor, not his OLED.

 

LCD's cant come anywhere near the black level performance of OLED, so your not going to notice if you PC and/or media Player program has its black level above 0 for example on ur Tv or monitor, but if you then try those same settings on a OLED, its going to look bad.

 

I use a Plasma, and the amount of videos i see online ,and the amount of streamers ,that have their display settings set wrong is astonishing. Washed out colors are common place, grey blacks as well. If you've only ever used a LCD and/or you only have access to one, you dont know what 'black' is. You could be using Limited RGB for example and not even know it. Full RGB or YCBCR 444 has the full range but wont look right on ur average LCD because ur average LCD will crush the lower range of colors because it cant display them.

 

In addition to this, modern TVs can usually detect or have a specific input for PC use, and a specific setting for PC use which disables all processing for better input latency.

If you then play a video via the PC then your comparing a PC input without processing to the TV's native player with processing, which ofc will look different.

 

So yes im sure there is a difference, and if both the PC is outputting pre altered visual settings, AND the TV is running with processing off, then vs the TV or Xbox player using processed self calibrated settings, then of course its quite possible your brother is right.

 

ofc when it comes to bit rate, resolution, streaming and such, ofc native resolution full bitrate files will be better, but thats going to be harder to notice if the comparison also has differences in processing and display settings.

 

I know u were looking for help convincing ur brother he is wrong , but in all honesty is quiet possible he is right.

 


CPU: Intel i7 3930k w/OC & EK Supremacy EVO Block | Motherboard: Asus P9x79 Pro  | RAM: G.Skill 4x4 1866 CL9 | PSU: Seasonic Platinum 1000w | VDU: Panasonic 42" Plasma |

GPU: Gigabyte 1080ti Gaming OC w/OC & Barrow Block | Sound: Asus Xonar D2X - Z5500 -FiiO X3K DAP/DAC - ATH-M50S | Case: Phantek Enthoo Primo White |

Storage: Samsung 850 Pro 1TB SSD + Samsung 850 Evo 256GB SSD | Cooling: XSPC D5 Photon 270 Res & Pump | 2x XSPC AX240 White Rads | NexXxos Monsta 80x240 Rad P/P |

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Okay, I think people may be missing my question, which is totally understandable. A wall of text is a wall of text. I will clarify, I’m not comparing two displays. I’m comparing an Xbox to a pc, both using the same 4K oled display.

 

To simplify:

1, Brother has a 4K OLED TV.

2, Brother plays videos on the Netflix and YouTube app on said display via Xbox.

3, I plug in my computer via HDMI into 4K OLED TV.

4, I put on a lossless video (actual 4k blu-ray raw), as well as assorted 4K videos that are free from artefacts.

5, He says it looks “like a computer plugged into a tv”, implying it’s not as good of a picture as an Xbox playing a blu-ray, or YouTube 4k on his tv.

6, tells me I must need to calibrate my computer by changing the brightness/sharpness etc.

 

Maybe that makes the wall of text above easier to read if you understand my rambling...

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Posted · Original PosterOP
On 5/24/2019 at 10:39 PM, Jurrunio said:

Not sure if I'm overseeing things, but you're trying to say 1080p video looks better than 4K because the machine doing the playback is more powerful?

Sorry, no. More my brother is trying to say 4K video playback looks better on his Xbox than on a rtx2070, i7 8700.

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Posted · Original PosterOP
On 5/25/2019 at 12:40 AM, SolarNova said:

I think the problem here if i've read it all correctly, is that Your PC may be setup to output videos on YOUR TV/monitor, not his OLED.

 

LCD's cant come anywhere near the black level performance of OLED, so your not going to notice if you PC and/or media Player program has its black level above 0 for example on ur Tv or monitor, but if you then try those same settings on a OLED, its going to look bad.

 

[..]

 

I know u were looking for help convincing ur brother he is wrong , but in all honesty is quiet possible he is right.

 

How does one “setup” a computer to display correct colour? Every thing I’ve ever read about calibration is done on the monitor side. Also, how do I adjust the brightness of my graphics card? How do I “enable hdr” on an RTX2070?

 

My brother often tells me how much better his Xbox looks than a computer, and then equates that to being more powerful. He actually asked me if my graphics card could even output 4K.

 

This isn’t someone looking for help trying to prove someone wrong. I’m asking if, when I tell him he’s stupid, I’m not overlooking anything. 

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13 minutes ago, DR4GONSTEAR said:

Sorry, no. More my brother is trying to say 4K video playback looks better on his Xbox than on a rtx2070, i7 8700.

maybe try a blind test, in which you play something with his xbox while pretending that your PC is the one playing? If he still say it's "not as good as the xbox" you know he's not being objective. Otherwise you two aren't born with the same set of eyes.


"What's under the heatsink?" ep1, "Why it's not as good as it seem?" AMD fanboy edition out, episode 2 "Why my gaming board is a scam?" Intel fanboy edition coming soon (this is a link)

Hardware specs below

CPU: i7-2600K 4745MHz 1.408V (software) --> 1.4?V at the back of the socket Motherboard: Asrock Z77 Extreme4 (BCLK: 103.2MHz) CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-D15 RAM: Adata XPG 2x8GB DDR3 (XMP: 2133MHz 10-11-11-30 CR2, custom: 2200MHz 10-11-10-26 CR1 tRFC:230 tREFI:14000) GPU: Asus GTX 1070 Dual (Super Jetstream vbios, +70(2025-2088MHz)/+400(8.8Gbps)) SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB (main boot drive), Transcend SSD370 128GB PSU: Seasonic X-660 80+ Gold Case: Antec P110 Silent, 5 intakes 1 exhaust Monitor: AOC G2460PF 1080p 144Hz (150Hz max w/ DP, 121Hz max w/ HDMI) TN panel Keyboard: Logitech G610 Orion (Cherry MX Blue) with SteelSeries Apex M260 keycaps Mouse: BenQ Zowie FK1

 

Model: HP Omen 17 17-an110ca CPU: i7-8750H (0.125V core & cache, 50mV SA undervolt) GPU: GTX 1060 6GB Mobile (+80/+450, 1650MHz~1750MHz 0.78V~0.85V) RAM: 8+8GB DDR4-2400 18-17-17-39 2T Storage: 1TB HP EX920 PCIe x4 M.2 SSD + 1TB Seagate 7200RPM 2.5" HDD (ST1000LM049-2GH172), 128GB Toshiba PCIe x2 M.2 SSD (KBG30ZMV128G) gone cooking externally Monitor: 1080p 126Hz IPS G-sync

 

Desktop benching:

Cinebench R15 Single thread:168 Multi-thread: 833 

SuperPi (v1.5 from Techpowerup, PI value output) 16K: 0.100s 1M: 8.255s 32M: 7m 45.93s

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22 hours ago, DR4GONSTEAR said:

How does one “setup” a computer to display correct colour? Every thing I’ve ever read about calibration is done on the monitor side. Also, how do I adjust the brightness of my graphics card? How do I “enable hdr” on an RTX2070?

 

My brother often tells me how much better his Xbox looks than a computer, and then equates that to being more powerful. He actually asked me if my graphics card could even output 4K.

 

This isn’t someone looking for help trying to prove someone wrong. I’m asking if, when I tell him he’s stupid, I’m not overlooking anything. 

 

Just ensure your using the correct color format. YCBCR 444 for example. Go to the NVCP, "Change Resolution" , select YCBCR 444 or RGB 'Full'. Then select "adjust desktop color settings" and make sure that all set to default.

Finally on the PC, check ur media player and ensure any options available are default/disabled.

 

Now for the TV, ensure you use the same profile for both the PC, the Xbox, and/or TV player. It will likely try to run a PC profile for the PC so make sure u manually set it to something else and choose that same profile when using the xbox or TV's media player. There may be other settings that get adjusted beyond just the color profile so make sure they are also all the same. Each Tv will have a different Ui and settings that can be adjusted so i cant be more specific, just ensure everything is the same.


CPU: Intel i7 3930k w/OC & EK Supremacy EVO Block | Motherboard: Asus P9x79 Pro  | RAM: G.Skill 4x4 1866 CL9 | PSU: Seasonic Platinum 1000w | VDU: Panasonic 42" Plasma |

GPU: Gigabyte 1080ti Gaming OC w/OC & Barrow Block | Sound: Asus Xonar D2X - Z5500 -FiiO X3K DAP/DAC - ATH-M50S | Case: Phantek Enthoo Primo White |

Storage: Samsung 850 Pro 1TB SSD + Samsung 850 Evo 256GB SSD | Cooling: XSPC D5 Photon 270 Res & Pump | 2x XSPC AX240 White Rads | NexXxos Monsta 80x240 Rad P/P |

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