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TheBritishVillain

What EXACTLY did Huawei do?

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5 hours ago, TheBritishVillain said:

Also, why only the US?

Because Trump is a protectionist douche. Also he's in a genitals measuring contest with China.

 

But the effect of the ban go well beyond the US - everyone who wanted to buy from Huawei will have to deal with the fact that they no longer have access to google services and a bunch of hardware patents. Effectively, Huawei was banned outside of China.

5 hours ago, TheBritishVillain said:

I don't want to know the other details about the ban, android etc... I just want to know exactly what they have alleged to have done and why it is so bad?

The allegation is that Huawei devices spy on you and report everything to the Chinese government. While it's not far fetched to assume that the Chinese government has access to some telemetry through Huawei, there is no evidence that it goes beyond that.

 

Also if that is a concern then US companies should get the same treatment - or really every major tech corporation that sells their product outside their home country, which means all of them. A similar situation would be China banning Microsoft (not that I think it would be beyond them, Chinese politicians are also douches).


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10 minutes ago, Mr. horse said:

Mean wile just about every phone on the market saya made in China on them and their not banned 

Because those chips are made at TSMC, or Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company. Taiwan also claims they're "China", much like how in the Koreas, there is no "North Korea" or "South Korea", they both say they're "Korea"

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1 hour ago, JoostinOnline said:

I'm not saying China is innocent. When I said "it doesn't make sense" I meant specifically banning all business with Huawei, not hate towards China. But this is more displaced anger.

Sure it does. Don't want your information going to a specific companies government? Ban the 5G networking infrastructure. Adding them to the exception list accomplishes exactly that.


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13 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Sure it does. Don't want your information going to a specific companies government? Ban the 5G networking infrastructure. Adding them to the exception list accomplishes exactly that.

But that's merely speculation. Huawei hasn't done anything out of line. This is just "but they might". It's paranoia driven action.


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Just now, JoostinOnline said:

But that's merely speculation. Huawei hasn't done anything out of line. This is just "but they might". It's paranoia driven action.

That's exactly the point. If you knew anything about risk mitigation, you'd realize that. How do you negate the risk of the Chinese government requesting the information from Huawei? Take away their ability to collect said information to begin with. It's really not that hard to understand.


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1 hour ago, JoostinOnline said:

But that's merely speculation. Huawei hasn't done anything out of line. This is just "but they might". It's paranoia driven action.

The point is that the risk is too great. If the Chinese government asked Huawei to pass on data, they have to. Full stop. They have no recourse. They can't refuse. They can't take it to court.

 

American companies, at least, have avenues to stop the American Government from forcing things out of them illegally.

 

And when it comes to national security (and this is true for most countries), paranoia kind of comes with the territory.


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Was the start of US vs China bs, but to be fair Huawei does ask new employees about their former employer if it benefits Huawei which is technically illegal.  Like, they wanna know about projects you were working on which you aren't supposed to tell others about outside of the company.  The US claims that Huawei is uploading your data to their servers in China then giving it to the Chinese government.  Well, the US is being hypocritical about that since they upload your data to their own NSA servers.  They state it is only "meta data", and that they can only use it against you if they either have a warrant or they can basically use the patriot act.


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4 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

The point is that the risk is too great. If the Chinese government asked Huawei to pass on data, they have to. Full stop. They have no recourse. They can't refuse. They can't take it to court.

 

American companies, at least, have avenues to stop the American Government from forcing things out of them illegally.

 

And when it comes to national security (and this is true for most countries), paranoia kind of comes with the territory.

It doesn't really matter if they ask the companies considering that the NSA collects your data and has it on their servers.  However, they can get the data in one of 2 scenarios.  1)  A warrant or 2) Patriot Act.


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5 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

It doesn't really matter if they ask the companies considering that the NSA collects your data and has it on their servers.  However, they can get the data in one of 2 scenarios.  1)  A warrant or 2) Patriot Act.

True, but at least there are legal structures around both of those. The Chinese don't need warrants. They already have blanket laws basically saying "We can do whatever we want, and we can make you give us access to anything we want", when it comes to Chinese companies.

 

And besides that, The American Government doesn't care that the American Government can get access to data. Americans should care, yes. But Americans should also care that China can get their data too.

 

China doesn't care about international treaties or Copyright or IP or any of that. They take what they want, when they can get it. And if they end up running half the 5G infrastructure on the planet due to a Chinese company providing the equipment? If I were the US Government, I'd want to avoid that scenario too, even if the reasons are entirely selfish and hypocritical.


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5 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

True, but at least there are legal structures around both of those. The Chinese don't need warrants. They already have blanket laws basically saying "We can do whatever we want, and we can make you give us access to anything we want", when it comes to Chinese companies.

 

And besides that, The American Government doesn't care that the American Government can get access to data. Americans should care, yes. But Americans should also care that China can get their data too.

 

China doesn't care about international treaties or Copyright or IP or any of that. They take what they want, when they can get it. And if they end up running half the 5G infrastructure on the planet due to a Chinese company providing the equipment? If I were the US Government, I'd want to avoid that scenario too, even if the reasons are entirely selfish and hypocritical.

The US has never cared about treaties, our companies collect data all the time, and a lot of companies don't care about copyrights or ips here.  Look at Apple.  Tax dodging, patent trolling, copyright infringing, and more!  Even Japanese companies do this.  Tommo, for example, stole a FB A, a well known Neo Geo emulator, and then sold it as the SW that emulates on the Neo Geo X Gold. which SNK/Playmore licensed them to produce for the Neo Geo AES anniversary.  NVM, Tommo is apparently American.  XD


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11 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

The US has never cared about treaties, our companies collect data all the time, and a lot of companies don't care about copyrights or ips here.  Look at Apple.  Tax dodging, patent trolling, copyright infringing, and more!  Even Japanese companies do this.  Tommo, for example, stole a FB A, a well known Neo Geo emulator, and then sold it as the SW that emulates on the Neo Geo X Gold. which SNK/Playmore licensed them to produce for the Neo Geo AES anniversary.  NVM, Tommo is apparently American.  XD

Apple has been guilty of stuff like that, yes. But they've been sued (and lost) because of it. At least you can sue an American company that steals your IP.

Good luck suing a Chinese company about IP theft.


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What i find funny about this whole "spying" thing is people actually believe that the Chinese government gives a damn about whats on 99.99% of your phones... the only people they would care about is those with security clearances and corporate execs, and most of those wouldn't be buying some Chinese phone anywho...In reality this is just another deranged move from the current US administration whether its to slow down the companies growth or what who knows the real motive.


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1 hour ago, DesolationGod said:

What i find funny about this whole "spying" thing is people actually believe that the Chinese government gives a damn about whats on 99.99% of your phones... the only people they would care about is those with security clearances and corporate execs, and most of those wouldn't be buying some Chinese phone anywho...In reality this is just another deranged move from the current US administration whether its to slow down the companies growth or what who knows the real motive.

It's not about the phones. It's about the 5G network. It's a very important difference that you really need to understand when you're discussing the topic. 


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Has everyone forgotten that Huawei has been the ire of many US companies for years now?

 

They've been indicted and charged for a number of crimes, mostly around stealing IP, spying on US tech companies, and copyright infringement. Their CFO has been detained in Canada for months now and is pending extradition to the US. Trade war or not the most recent ban is really just the climax of a years long developing case against them. 

 

If you think Huawei is innocent and is being bullied by the US, maybe read up a bit.

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/29/689663720/a-robot-named-tappy-huawei-conspired-to-steal-t-mobile-s-trade-secrets-says-doj

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Huawei China allegedly continued to pester Huawei USA employees to dig up the intel, and they in turn continued to ask T-Mobile folks about Tappy's design. One of the Huawei engineers, known in the indictment only as "A.X.", took and sent unauthorized photos of the robot to Huawei China, but it wasn't enough, and they asked for more.

 

An engineer, "F.W.", arrived from China. A.X. and another U.S. counterpart sneaked the visiting engineer into the lab to see and photograph Tappy. They were caught – twice, and F.W. was ordered out of the facility.

 

T-Mobile then banned Huawei employees from the lab, but relented and allowed A.X. access.

 

Then, in May 2013, A.X. allegedly made a very bold move, removing Tappy's arm and putting it in his laptop bag. T-Mobile employees confronted him about the missing arm. He denied having it, and that night he and F.W. measured and photographed the arm. The next day, A.X. said he had "found" Tappy's arm in his bag. It was then that T-Mobile finally revoked A.X.'s credential to the lab.

 

 

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How I see things: China is growing economically and it is just matter of time when they will surpass the US. US don't like that so they are trying to stop it by all means necessary. Huawei is just the most famous company being caught between two fires. I read an article some time ago that Huawei's mobile division was about to become the number one company in the smartphone export, but someone didn't like that either.

 

Also, the US accusing someone for espionage is just ridiculous. They've been caught with their fingers in the cookie jar way too many times. So, it seems that is OK if US spies on you, but if there is possibility that China COULD do that, it is just outrageous.

 

In the end the victims will not be companies or governments, but end users. 5G deployment will be dramatically postponed because the next "cheapest" 5G equipment maker's price is significantly higher. I could compare what this will do to the technological development to what the inquisition done in the middle ages minus burning the human "witches".  

 

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Posted (edited)

The issue with Huawei is not a new one; most importantly, there is a need to understand that the company is directly connected to the Chinese military. Its founder Ren Czhen Fei began his career in the People's Liberation Army (PLA) as a technologist for the military arm of the Chinese government. While the company he formed received funding from the Central body of the government, this is normal in western democracies too.

 

The current issue Huawei is having with the United States has no direct relationship with either of these known facts about the company or its founder. However, the complete reasoning behind the new ban mostly is challenging to understand because it is about policy differences between the nations. Moreover, policy differences are built upon the moral underpinnings which are difficult to define in real time and space. To do this, I can use some examples in other situations, but first, there is a need to look back into the past.

In Australia, I first came across Huawei technology when it supplied 2G/ 3G mobile routers when it launched here under the then CK Hutchison Holdings Limited (now known as Vodafone) brand '3'.

 

The dongle router had an issue which occurred when you first tried to connect to the internet, which was that it would take many minutes to navigate to, for example, google search. The telecommunications company Hutchison informed users that the issue had to do with firstly, the customer's usage scenario and secondly the 2G bandwidth was so slow in the area the customer was attempting to connect. Both of these were proven not to be the case because it was possible within the settings to disable 2G and it is possible to detect the signal strength using other meters.

Then someone looked at the firmware of the dongle router and noticed it was on initial connection trying to connect to a URL inside China! Fast forward a few years and the western world was able to understand what the device was trying to do, that is, connect to ‘the great firewall of China’. The Chinese government restricts internet access to its citizens (Maotai), and as we all now know, they blocked YouTube in 2009 and later, the Google search is shut down.

 

The problem then is for anyone who wants to develop a technology device (such as Ren Czhen Fei) is that they have to enable this by default in the firmware. While yes this is at the behest of the Government but also the morality of NOT doing this is an act of treason against the nationhood (the motherland China) a feature of Chinese cultural realism, pride and morality.

 

What happened with the E160G dongle router is that Huawei developed a firmware updater called ‘Birdstep dashboard’ and once the user updated the mobile internet key's programming. The newer firmware redirected the connection it was trying to make by adding a timeout and fall-back URL. The Chinese government is controlling their internal internet like it was a series of Campus Area Networks (CAN) inside a Metropolitan Area Network (MAN), and the internet (what we connect to) is the Wide Area Network (WAN) which is not a guaranteed connection in China. So, the E160G’s programming when in its home environment in China reported to or logged into its CAN or MAN behind ‘the great firewall of China’ to enable monitoring and redirection.

The policy issue can also be seen in the way in which the Huawei under the direction of its upper management operates, who are content with pushing the boundaries of what they consider morally acceptable. For example, in 2016 a promotional photo for their P9 smartphone, Huawei asserted that an image was captured with “HuaweiP9’s dual Leica cameras”, however, the EXIF data attached to the file uploaded to Google+ was actually revealed to have been shot on a Canon EOS 5D Mark III with a EF70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM lens. In a 2018 commercial for the Huawei P30 Pro, they used stock images from Tom Pfeiffer, and Jake Olson and these images were shared on Weibo by Huawei's CEO Yu Chengdong as a series of posters to promote the P30 series', periscope zoom camera.

 

Similar moral advantage can be seen to be taken by other Chinese smartphone manufacturers wanting to push the boundaries set by Huawei such as OnePlus. They in a contest with the hashtag #ShotonOnePlus in India awarded the winning prestige to and supported that 2018 decision for some months, for a photo that had been cropped from an image by Aman Bhargava. Apart from being easily identified as Bhargava's photo, the EXIF data showed that the image was shot in 2017 on the A6000 model of OnePlus that was not released until 2018. John Gruber makes a critical comparison here by hypothetically asking what the moral outcry would be if it were Apple's 'Shot on an iPhone' contest!

 

Links:

Time Magazine Archive Ren Zhengfei

E160G Whirlpool

3 Launched 2003 in Australia - Three_at_Ten.pdf

3 Mobile closed Vodafone

E160G overview launched in UK 2008

China blocks YouTube - The Guardian

Maotai spying tool Ryan Gallagher - Twitter [@rj_gallagher]

In 2016 "Huawei publishes implied P9 camera sample..." Android Police

"Huawei’s P30 ad..." Gadget match

"OnePlus Photo Contest Winner Stole His Photo From Instagram User..." John Gruber of the Daring Fireball Company.

Aman Bhargava's Instagram

Shot on iPhone challenge

Google’s Dragonfly project

 

@TheBritishVillain 

 

@dizmo 

 

@FloRolf

 

@Princess Luna

 

 @SupaKomputa

 

@orbitalbuzzsaw 

 

@JoostinOnline 

 

@GoldenLag

 

@Mira Yurizaki

 

@Sauron

 

@dalekphalm

 

Edited by SydneySideSteveSomewheres
added Dragonfly link

Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves (Abraham Lincoln,1808-1865; 16th US president).

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2 minutes ago, SydneySideSteveSomewheres said:

-snip-

 

dear lord that is a massive wall of text, no thank you. im using darkmode and that there is literally blinding me

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7 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

dear lord that is a massive wall of text, no thank you. im using darkmode and that there is literally blinding me

Not a rant and safe too read, but yes around the eight-hundred-word mark...


Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves (Abraham Lincoln,1808-1865; 16th US president).

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Just now, SydneySideSteveSomewheres said:

Not a rant and safe too read, but yes around the eight-hundred-word mark...

that is an essay. like honestly that there is rant territory. 

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1 minute ago, GoldenLag said:

that is an essay. like honestly that there is rant territory. 

Tell me how long it takes for you to read and I will add  "(x) minute read" at the top if you like?


Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves (Abraham Lincoln,1808-1865; 16th US president).

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Just now, SydneySideSteveSomewheres said:

Tell me how long it takes for you to read and I will add  "(x) minute read" at the top if you like?

longer than i think its worth my time

 

that is the ammount of time it takes

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2 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

longer than i think its worth my time

 

that is the ammount of time it takes

Right-o then as you were, apologies for the interruption...


Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves (Abraham Lincoln,1808-1865; 16th US president).

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14 hours ago, TheBritishVillain said:

I know that Huawei has been banned in the US. I remember seeing a video that they were 'spying' on US citizens.

 

I don't want to know the other details about the ban, android etc... I just want to know exactly what they have alleged to have done and why it is so bad?

 

Also, why only the US?

What they did is that they are making a lot of money and US is falling back behind China in terms of economy and that by a very large margin. It has nothing to do with spying. Everybody's spying.

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2 minutes ago, SydneySideSteveSomewheres said:

Right-o then as you were, apologies for the interruption...

its fine, i just despice those sort of walls. 

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