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MeatFeastMan

Pair of AMD Navi GPU's to be shown at Computex

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That's retarded. That basically goes against ALL reviews that bother benching shit and making easy to understand verdicts at the end or even mention price/performance ratio. Who else cares the most about that than mainstream users or normies? And those for the large part aren't people who buy RTX 2080Ti or Radeon VII. They buy shit like GTX 1650Ti because they think NVIDIA is the shit. And it's the shit. Literally. Because you'd get a far better card if you'd pick the RX580. Performance and money. Age and generation matters if you're buying top of the line and you expect latest and greatest shit for 800-1000€. At lower ranges it just doesn't matter. It's also hard to believe people just go and blindly buy shit without asking someone. I mean, literally every family has one geek who does the thinking and is regularly asked about this for sure. So, yeah, I don't understand who are these people who just go and buy something without really knowing what they are buying. It's like sending me to buy a combine harvester. I know how it looks and what it's meant for, but I have absolutely zero clue what features are important for it. I don't just go and buy something. So, yeah, it's a rather baffling situation...

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2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

There might be.  All Lisa said about the VII is that it is part of the high end.

"Big Navi" / new Radeon Instinct will be around in early 2020. We'll see if it comes to Desktop or not.

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1 minute ago, RejZoR said:

That's retarded. That basically goes against ALL reviews that bother benching shit and making easy to understand verdicts at the end or even mention price/performance ratio. Who else cares the most about that than mainstream users or normies? And those for the large part aren't people who buy RTX 2080Ti or Radeon VII. They buy shit like GTX 1650Ti because they think NVIDIA is the shit. And it's the shit. Literally. Because you'd get a far better card if you'd pick the RX580. Performance and money. Age and generation matters if you're buying top of the line and you expect latest and greatest shit for 800-1000€. At lower ranges it just doesn't matter. It's also hard to believe people just go and blindly buy shit without asking someone. I mean, literally every family has one geek who does the thinking and is regularly asked about this for sure. So, yeah, I don't understand who are these people who just go and buy something without really knowing what they are buying. It's like sending me to buy a combine harvester. I know how it looks and what it's meant for, but I have absolutely zero clue what features are important for it. I don't just go and buy something. So, yeah, it's a rather baffling situation...

The vast, vast majority of the dGPU market is sub-300USD. Most of it is the 100-150USD range. (You'll find most new games will hit 1080p/60Hz on Medium settings on those cards. For a reason.) This is why most don't really get why AMD has had such dGPU troubles for the last several years. For roughly 3 years out of the last 8, you couldn't buy a reasonably priced (or price/performance) AMD dGPU below 300USD. Thus, for a chunk of people in the Upgrade buying situation (which is much of the market), AMD simply wasn't an option. Then, if you've been happy with your Nvidia GPU, you'll just buy the next one. The dGPU market was pretty close in the start of the 2010s, but AMD has been functionally out of the market for a significant chunk of that.

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13 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

"Big Navi" / new Radeon Instinct will be around in early 2020. We'll see if it comes to Desktop or not.

There's no confirmed date for the instinct cards, iirc.  Just confirmed Navi cards which are Q3 this year.


VashTheStampede 4.0:

CPU: AMD Threadripper 1950x | CPU Cooling: EKWB Liquid Cooling(EK-Supremacy sTR4 RGB - Nickel, EK-CoolStream SE 280, EK-Vardar EVO 140ER Black x 2, EK-XRES 100 SPC-60 MX PWM (incl. pump), EK-ACF Fitting 10/13mm - Red (6-pack), EK-DuraClear 9,5/12,7mm 3M, and Scarlet Red Premix) | Compound: Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut | Mobo: Asrock X399 Taichi | Ram: G.Skill Ripjaws V 32GBs (2x16) DDR4-3200 | Storage: Crucial MX500 500GB M.2-2280 SSD/PNY CS900 240GB SSD/Toshiba X300 4TB 7200RPM | GPU: Zotac Geforce GTX 1080 8GB AMP! Edition(Replacing with a Radeon VII | Case: Fractal Define R5 Blackout Edition w/Window | PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA G2 750W 80+ Gold | Operating System: Windows 10 Pro | Keyboard: Ducky Shine 7 Blackout Edition with Cherry MX Silent Reds | Mouse: Corsair M65 Pro RGB FPS | Headphones:  AKG K7XX Mass Drop Editions(Replacing with k712s) | Mic: Audio-Technica ATR2500 | Speakers: Mackie MR624 Studio Monitors

 

Surtr:

CPU: AMD Ryzen 3 2200G(Temp/Upping to a Zen 2 Ryzen 7) | CPU Cooling: Wraith(Dark Rock Pro 4 when I get the 3700x or 3800x) | Compound: Thermal Grizzly Kryronaut | Mobo: Asrock x470 Taichi | Ram: G.Skill Ripjaws V 16GBs (2x8) DDR4-3200 | Storage: PNY - BX500 240 GB SSD+Seagate Constellation ES.3 1TB 7200RPM | GPU: EVGA - GeForce GTX 770 2GB /02G-P4-2770-KR(Temp/getting a Navi card later this year) | Case: Corsair - SPEC-DELTA RGB | PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA G2 750W 80+ Gold | Optical Drive: Random HP DVD Drive | Operating System: Windows 10 | Keyboard: Corsair K70 with Cherry MX Reds | Mouse: Corsair M65 Pro RGB FPS Speakers: JBL LSR 305 Studio Monitors(At some point)

 

Prince of Dark Rock:

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 2600 | CPU Cooling: be quiet! - Dark Rock Pro 4 | Compound: Thermal Grizzly Kryronaut | Mobo: MSI B450 Tomahawki | Ram: G.Skill Ripjaws V 8GBs (2x4) DDR4-3200 | Storage: Crucial - BX200 240 GB SSD+Seagate Constellation ES.3 1TB 7200RPM | GPU: EVGA - GeForce GTX 1060 6GB SSC | Case: Cooler Master - MasterBox MB511 | PSU: Corsair - CXM 550W | Optical Drive: Random HP DVD Drive | Operating System: Windows 10 Home | Keyboard: Rosewill - NEON K85 RGB BR | Mouse: Razer DeathAdder Elite Destiny 2 Edition 

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@Taf the Ghost

That's not true. AMD had such cards for ages. But again, people didn't buy them for some stupid reason. Don't blame AMD for the stupid cryptomining BS tho in last few years where majority of most feasible gaming cards ended in mining farms.

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5 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

There's no confirmed date for the instinct cards, iirc.  Just confirmed Navi cards which are Q3 this year.

One of the investor calls Lisa Su mentioned the next Instinct card in 2020. That's the only confirmed next die we know about. Was a late Q4 2019 product at best anyway.

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3 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

@Taf the Ghost

That's not true. AMD had such cards for ages. But again, people didn't buy them for some stupid reason. Don't blame AMD for the stupid cryptomining BS tho in last few years where majority of most feasible gaming cards ended in mining farms.

I'm not blaming AMD, but their dGPU market share started dropping rapidly when the Crypto Boom first hit. Then the "Bust" part of the Boom & Bust cycle meant the secondary market is flooded with super cheap second hand GPUs. This also happened not long after the ATI->AMD branding change. AMD was in a terrible position when the upswing in the Gaming Computer market hit in 2013.

 

Basically, AMD got a case of "bad luck" before a lot of terrible management decisions hurt them badly. 

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I mean, back in 2006, I bought myself Radeon x1950 Pro. It was roughly a 150€ card back then (I'm not gonna bother with inflation and all that right now). The card was pretty badass and it wasn't even a bottom of the barrel which were the x1400 and x1600 series. It was a refresh of x1800 but wasn't 1950 XTX which was the fastest card back then. 150€ wasn't all that expensive. Buying cards for 80€ was kinda pointless, just as it is today...

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I had a skim of the thread and couldn't see anyone mention this, unless I'm mistaken, but those prices would almost certainly have to include the new US 25% tarriffs, as I would suspect they are quoting US consumer pricing in USD.

 

A USD400.00 GPU would have been USD320.00 without any tarriff, and a USD500.00 GPU would have been USD400.00 which makes them a bit more sensibly priced if this is the case.

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31 minutes ago, IntMD said:

I had a skim of the thread and couldn't see anyone mention this, unless I'm mistaken, but those prices would almost certainly have to include the new US 25% tarriffs, as I would suspect they are quoting US consumer pricing in USD.

 

A USD400.00 GPU would have been USD320.00 without any tarriff, and a USD500.00 GPU would have been USD400.00 which makes them a bit more sensibly priced if this is the case.

Generally you don't include tariffs in to MSRP, things like that are applied after so you don't have to change the MSRP if tariffs change.

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21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Generally you don't include tariffs in to MSRP, things like that are applied after so you don't have to change the MSRP if tariffs change.

Tariffs also aren't paid on Retail pricing.

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9 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Tariffs also aren't paid on Retail pricing.

Well they kind of are, if that cost is passed on to the consumer in the form of a price increase from the importer, distributor and retailer. The retail price you see would then include the tariff, though not necessarily the exact tariff.

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9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Generally you don't include tariffs in to MSRP, things like that are applied after so you don't have to change the MSRP if tariffs change.

You would include it if you were talking about final consumer pricing though and not what you are supplying them at to the importer.

 

While I could be wrong, I just can't see them starting at USD498.75 & USD623.75 + sales taxes in the US - even if the retailer eats a lot of their margin starts pricing on them at something like USD450-600. If they weren't including a tarriff on those quoted prices (and of course, assuming they are correct prices anyway) then it will essentially be asking everyone around them to put a gun to their own head and asking them to all pull the trigger. If they are going up against anything lower than 2080 performance they'd be horrible value for money, especially when those and the Radeon VII are both available from USD680.00 on newegg (albeit likely @ the 10% tarriff still, I would imagine).

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Well they kind of are, if that cost is passed on to the consumer in for the form of a price increase from the importer, distributor and retailer. The retail price you see would then include the tariff, though not necessarily the exact tariff.

The cost will be passed along (China has actually be paying a lot to keep it from killing companies, so a lot of it actually hasn't been passed along), but it's not like a Sales Tax. It's going to be the cost to the distributor to get it to the Point of Entry. So it's normally a pre-Wholesale price and pre-Retail markups. Without any adjustments, a 25% Tariff should see around a 10% retail price increase or so. It's not minor, but it has been so far.

 

As a point of reality of the Chinese Currency, it actually has a lot of room to fall to normalize itself. That's why this entire situation is a Lose-Lose for China, but they've chosen to play things the way they are. Though given they just got a "President for Life", he can't risk looking weak, thus so much of the kabuki theater. (Most of this is theater, but the normalization of trade was going to happen, one way or the other.) 

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1 minute ago, IntMD said:

You would include it if you were talking about final consumer pricing though and not what you are supplying them at to the importer.

 

While I could be wrong, I just can't see them starting at USD498.75 & USD623.75 + sales taxes in the US - even if the retailer eats a lot of their margin starts pricing on them at something like USD450-600. If they weren't including a tarriff on those quoted prices (and of course, assuming they are correct prices anyway) then it will essentially be asking everyone around them to put a gun to their own head and asking them to all pull the trigger. If they are going up against anything lower than 2080 performance they'd be horrible value for money, especially when those and the Radeon VII are both available from USD680.00 on newegg (albeit likely @ the 10% tarriff still, I would imagine).

399USD and 499USD SKUs existing isn't out of the question. The issue is we don't expect cards that would be worth those prices to be in the launch window. That's the disconnect right now. The Rep only said "above 2070" performance and we don't know if that was for both SKUs or not. We might have a situation where 399USD is the 2070/2080 performance competitor and the 499USD part is actually a special edition liquid cooled variant. Remember how Vega launched with 3 SKUs: 56, 64 and 64 Liquid. 

 

Further, the information doesn't make much sense as Navi is a full scale Generation and there's the entire slate of SKUs coming. The vague discussion might have actually been about their own top of the line SKUs, which would make a lot more sense. 

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1 minute ago, Taf the Ghost said:

The cost will be passed along (China has actually be paying a lot to keep it from killing companies, so a lot of it actually hasn't been passed along), but it's not like a Sales Tax. It's going to be the cost to the distributor to get it to the Point of Entry. So it's normally a pre-Wholesale price and pre-Retail markups. Without any adjustments, a 25% Tariff should see around a 10% retail price increase or so. It's not minor, but it has been so far.

It still can end up in the retail price so it's reflected their if required. The price you pay is all costs, that's inclusive of tariffs. Someone might decide to eat a tariff so you don't pay more but that calculation was made and is represented in the retail price, just happens to be $0 of it.

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3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It still can end up in the retail price so it's reflected their if required. The price you pay is all costs, that's inclusive of tariffs. Someone might decide to eat a tariff so you don't pay more but that calculation was made and is represented in the retail price, just happens to be $0 of it.

It's going to end up being paid by the consumer, not saying it won't be, it's just the actual price difference for the Consumer, for the Tariff %s under discussion, tend to be within the margin of normal price movements. Price of Oil will likely have a larger effect on the pricing than the Tariffs will.

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6 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

We might have a situation where 399USD is the 2070/2080 performance competitor and the 499USD part is actually a special edition liquid cooled variant.

And if they were talking about Toxic editions of the cards those are really expensive ones. $499 Toxic could be something like $400-$450 XC Black (Yea I know EVGA doesn't make AMD cards but it was the only cheap edition name I could remember lol).

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8 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

It's going to end up being paid by the consumer, not saying it won't be, it's just the actual price difference for the Consumer, for the Tariff %s under discussion, tend to be within the margin of normal price movements. Price of Oil will likely have a larger effect on the pricing than the Tariffs will.

Not so much for a 25% tariff, that's beyond hand waving the cost away. Larger distributors and retailers may be able to lessen the effects but 25% on consumers electronics is a lot, when is the last time you saw buy 3 RAM sticks get 1 free? 😛.

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Just now, leadeater said:

And if they were talking about Toxic editions of the cards those are really expensive ones. $499 Toxic could be something like $400-$450 XC Black (Yea I know EVGA doesn't make AMD cards but it was the only cheap edition name I could remember lol).

Yeah, closer looks at the actual text really said practically nothing. It was vague PR speak about a 2070-class card and there were 2 price points mentioned. 399USD for 2070-performance would be a hot seller. 499USD for a high-end cooler setup and slightly better performance would compare against the cheapest 2070s. That's a big difference between what everyone has been talking about.

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Not so much for a 25% tariff, that's beyond hand waving the cost away. Larger distributors and retails may be able to lessen the effects but 25% on consumers electronics is a lot, when is the last time you saw buy 3 RAM sticks get 1 free? 😛.

Lol. I do agree that it's going to show up, but it won't look any different than other issues that shift prices around. Considering DRAM's drop in price recently, even a 25% increase would keep it lower than it has been for 2 years. Depending on the product and margins, it's going to be 8-15% at Retail. So between about 40 & 75USD per 500USD of product. It's definitely something and it will cause a readjustment within the market. 

 

However, we're still talking about electronics and a lot of them are still produced in a lot of places that either are exempt or the price is already factored in. Though, frankly, most won't really notice it. If it wasn't in the major news, only hardcore tech watchers would even notice. And it's not like a few companies didn't jack their prices up over the last 2 years anyway. (What's a core i9 going for?)

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It should also probably be noted that it wasn't high DRAM, dGPU or Intel shortages that ended up driving down computer sales. In fact, it seems everyone just bought last Christmas and Nvidia releasing a "meh" generation did more damage.

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1 minute ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Nvidia releasing a "meh" generation did more damage

And AMD. Still waiting for an actually good 2x 290X replacement at a good price.

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2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

And AMD. Still waiting for an actually good 2x 290X replacement at a good price.

Well, AMD needs to actually release something, lol. 

 

Honestly not sure why AMD has been sandbagging, at least on Zen2. The CPU silicon has been ready since at least March (not that early sales for Rome started to see deliveries in Q4). I'm guessing Navi got stuck in development hell because both MS and Sony needed a lot of engineering time for their custom variants.

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1 minute ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Well, AMD needs to actually release something, lol. 

Hey now, AMD has released something. A re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-brand 🤣

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