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Pair of AMD Navi GPU's to be shown at Computex

MeatFeastMan

NVIDIA has endless problems with web videos image tearing when using Adaptive V-Sync. And they need months to fix this shit just to get broken again. The new WebRender in Firefox 67? Yeah, it's tearing videos again like crazy. Like, wtf NVIDIA, I had to bitch for months for them to fix this shit and here we are again...

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1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

I'm aware about the driver bs.  Ironically, I have had more bs issues with Nvidia.  XD

Weird part is that it used to be an issue... in about 2002. Drivers are hit & miss from both companies, but AMD's entire package is a lot easier to deal with. Also, Chill is awesome.

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3 hours ago, RejZoR said:

No, AMD has very decent products actually. Old Vega 56 is an excellent card for the masses and so are basically all Polaris cards. But dumb people only know muh NVIDIA derp omg and they don't even consider Radeon cards for some fucked up reason. Like, I got my relative an RX 580 GTS for 180€ few months ago. No NVIDIA card came anywhere close to that and XFX RX 580 GTS is one of highest clocked cards from Polaris range. That's not AMD's fault per se, it's dumb consumers. Literally. Marketing or presence in high end doens't have anything to do with it. At all.

That's the point. AMD has only been able to market itself as a decently priced alternative for years, and that's because that's exactly what they are. Unfortunately, that's rarely successful in any business, tech or otherwise. Until they have tech that gives them the ability to do otherwise, they're stuck, and there's nothing on the horizon from them. There are price points and niches where they are clearly superior right now, but not overwhelmingly so in any market segment, and that's why AMD hasn't been able to run away with anything. They're practically dead in the laptop dGPU market. If Nvidia felt threatened in any particular segment they could just cut prices and eat the decreased profits. Even if the Radeon VII and the Navi products described in the OP came out at any point in 2017, I don't know that Nvidia would have considered them a threat. They would have been very compelling alternatives then, but now it's sad to watch them trying to play catch up years later. Nvidia is lazily hanging around on very mature fab processes and laughing all the way to the bank. 

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How about Triple fan 7nm Vega 64 instead?, the Radeon 7 is good but it could have been better.

Specs: Motherboard: Asus X470-PLUS TUF gaming (Yes I know it's poor but I wasn't informed) RAM: Corsair VENGEANCE® LPX DDR4 3200Mhz CL16-18-18-36 2x8GB

            CPU: Ryzen 9 5900X          Case: Antec P8     PSU: Corsair RM850x                        Cooler: Antec K240 with two Noctura Industrial PPC 3000 PWM

            Drives: Samsung 970 EVO plus 250GB, Micron 1100 2TB, Seagate ST4000DM000/1F2168 GPU: EVGA RTX 2080 ti Black edition

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7 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Most of the problems with it were solved after 2 months, but the drivers during that time were hot garbage.  From there it's kind of hard to improve when it's just a modded MI50.

There's the MI60 however, a gaming version of that card would be excellent.

Specs: Motherboard: Asus X470-PLUS TUF gaming (Yes I know it's poor but I wasn't informed) RAM: Corsair VENGEANCE® LPX DDR4 3200Mhz CL16-18-18-36 2x8GB

            CPU: Ryzen 9 5900X          Case: Antec P8     PSU: Corsair RM850x                        Cooler: Antec K240 with two Noctura Industrial PPC 3000 PWM

            Drives: Samsung 970 EVO plus 250GB, Micron 1100 2TB, Seagate ST4000DM000/1F2168 GPU: EVGA RTX 2080 ti Black edition

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It depends on 7nm yields. Factoring the added cost of HBM, I suspect right now fully enabled 7nm chips are only profitable at Instinct prices.

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3 minutes ago, williamcll said:

There's the MI60 however, a gaming version of that card would be excellent.

It's 64 vs 60 CUs and that version of GCN doesn't really scale into those extra CUs being useful. Also, AMD would rather sell them for 10k each.

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That's retarded. That basically goes against ALL reviews that bother benching shit and making easy to understand verdicts at the end or even mention price/performance ratio. Who else cares the most about that than mainstream users or normies? And those for the large part aren't people who buy RTX 2080Ti or Radeon VII. They buy shit like GTX 1650Ti because they think NVIDIA is the shit. And it's the shit. Literally. Because you'd get a far better card if you'd pick the RX580. Performance and money. Age and generation matters if you're buying top of the line and you expect latest and greatest shit for 800-1000€. At lower ranges it just doesn't matter. It's also hard to believe people just go and blindly buy shit without asking someone. I mean, literally every family has one geek who does the thinking and is regularly asked about this for sure. So, yeah, I don't understand who are these people who just go and buy something without really knowing what they are buying. It's like sending me to buy a combine harvester. I know how it looks and what it's meant for, but I have absolutely zero clue what features are important for it. I don't just go and buy something. So, yeah, it's a rather baffling situation...

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2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

There might be.  All Lisa said about the VII is that it is part of the high end.

"Big Navi" / new Radeon Instinct will be around in early 2020. We'll see if it comes to Desktop or not.

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1 minute ago, RejZoR said:

That's retarded. That basically goes against ALL reviews that bother benching shit and making easy to understand verdicts at the end or even mention price/performance ratio. Who else cares the most about that than mainstream users or normies? And those for the large part aren't people who buy RTX 2080Ti or Radeon VII. They buy shit like GTX 1650Ti because they think NVIDIA is the shit. And it's the shit. Literally. Because you'd get a far better card if you'd pick the RX580. Performance and money. Age and generation matters if you're buying top of the line and you expect latest and greatest shit for 800-1000€. At lower ranges it just doesn't matter. It's also hard to believe people just go and blindly buy shit without asking someone. I mean, literally every family has one geek who does the thinking and is regularly asked about this for sure. So, yeah, I don't understand who are these people who just go and buy something without really knowing what they are buying. It's like sending me to buy a combine harvester. I know how it looks and what it's meant for, but I have absolutely zero clue what features are important for it. I don't just go and buy something. So, yeah, it's a rather baffling situation...

The vast, vast majority of the dGPU market is sub-300USD. Most of it is the 100-150USD range. (You'll find most new games will hit 1080p/60Hz on Medium settings on those cards. For a reason.) This is why most don't really get why AMD has had such dGPU troubles for the last several years. For roughly 3 years out of the last 8, you couldn't buy a reasonably priced (or price/performance) AMD dGPU below 300USD. Thus, for a chunk of people in the Upgrade buying situation (which is much of the market), AMD simply wasn't an option. Then, if you've been happy with your Nvidia GPU, you'll just buy the next one. The dGPU market was pretty close in the start of the 2010s, but AMD has been functionally out of the market for a significant chunk of that.

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@Taf the Ghost

That's not true. AMD had such cards for ages. But again, people didn't buy them for some stupid reason. Don't blame AMD for the stupid cryptomining BS tho in last few years where majority of most feasible gaming cards ended in mining farms.

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5 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

There's no confirmed date for the instinct cards, iirc.  Just confirmed Navi cards which are Q3 this year.

One of the investor calls Lisa Su mentioned the next Instinct card in 2020. That's the only confirmed next die we know about. Was a late Q4 2019 product at best anyway.

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3 minutes ago, RejZoR said:

@Taf the Ghost

That's not true. AMD had such cards for ages. But again, people didn't buy them for some stupid reason. Don't blame AMD for the stupid cryptomining BS tho in last few years where majority of most feasible gaming cards ended in mining farms.

I'm not blaming AMD, but their dGPU market share started dropping rapidly when the Crypto Boom first hit. Then the "Bust" part of the Boom & Bust cycle meant the secondary market is flooded with super cheap second hand GPUs. This also happened not long after the ATI->AMD branding change. AMD was in a terrible position when the upswing in the Gaming Computer market hit in 2013.

 

Basically, AMD got a case of "bad luck" before a lot of terrible management decisions hurt them badly. 

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I mean, back in 2006, I bought myself Radeon x1950 Pro. It was roughly a 150€ card back then (I'm not gonna bother with inflation and all that right now). The card was pretty badass and it wasn't even a bottom of the barrel which were the x1400 and x1600 series. It was a refresh of x1800 but wasn't 1950 XTX which was the fastest card back then. 150€ wasn't all that expensive. Buying cards for 80€ was kinda pointless, just as it is today...

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I had a skim of the thread and couldn't see anyone mention this, unless I'm mistaken, but those prices would almost certainly have to include the new US 25% tarriffs, as I would suspect they are quoting US consumer pricing in USD.

 

A USD400.00 GPU would have been USD320.00 without any tarriff, and a USD500.00 GPU would have been USD400.00 which makes them a bit more sensibly priced if this is the case.

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31 minutes ago, IntMD said:

I had a skim of the thread and couldn't see anyone mention this, unless I'm mistaken, but those prices would almost certainly have to include the new US 25% tarriffs, as I would suspect they are quoting US consumer pricing in USD.

 

A USD400.00 GPU would have been USD320.00 without any tarriff, and a USD500.00 GPU would have been USD400.00 which makes them a bit more sensibly priced if this is the case.

Generally you don't include tariffs in to MSRP, things like that are applied after so you don't have to change the MSRP if tariffs change.

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21 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Generally you don't include tariffs in to MSRP, things like that are applied after so you don't have to change the MSRP if tariffs change.

Tariffs also aren't paid on Retail pricing.

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9 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Tariffs also aren't paid on Retail pricing.

Well they kind of are, if that cost is passed on to the consumer in the form of a price increase from the importer, distributor and retailer. The retail price you see would then include the tariff, though not necessarily the exact tariff.

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9 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Generally you don't include tariffs in to MSRP, things like that are applied after so you don't have to change the MSRP if tariffs change.

You would include it if you were talking about final consumer pricing though and not what you are supplying them at to the importer.

 

While I could be wrong, I just can't see them starting at USD498.75 & USD623.75 + sales taxes in the US - even if the retailer eats a lot of their margin starts pricing on them at something like USD450-600. If they weren't including a tarriff on those quoted prices (and of course, assuming they are correct prices anyway) then it will essentially be asking everyone around them to put a gun to their own head and asking them to all pull the trigger. If they are going up against anything lower than 2080 performance they'd be horrible value for money, especially when those and the Radeon VII are both available from USD680.00 on newegg (albeit likely @ the 10% tarriff still, I would imagine).

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Well they kind of are, if that cost is passed on to the consumer in for the form of a price increase from the importer, distributor and retailer. The retail price you see would then include the tariff, though not necessarily the exact tariff.

The cost will be passed along (China has actually be paying a lot to keep it from killing companies, so a lot of it actually hasn't been passed along), but it's not like a Sales Tax. It's going to be the cost to the distributor to get it to the Point of Entry. So it's normally a pre-Wholesale price and pre-Retail markups. Without any adjustments, a 25% Tariff should see around a 10% retail price increase or so. It's not minor, but it has been so far.

 

As a point of reality of the Chinese Currency, it actually has a lot of room to fall to normalize itself. That's why this entire situation is a Lose-Lose for China, but they've chosen to play things the way they are. Though given they just got a "President for Life", he can't risk looking weak, thus so much of the kabuki theater. (Most of this is theater, but the normalization of trade was going to happen, one way or the other.) 

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1 minute ago, IntMD said:

You would include it if you were talking about final consumer pricing though and not what you are supplying them at to the importer.

 

While I could be wrong, I just can't see them starting at USD498.75 & USD623.75 + sales taxes in the US - even if the retailer eats a lot of their margin starts pricing on them at something like USD450-600. If they weren't including a tarriff on those quoted prices (and of course, assuming they are correct prices anyway) then it will essentially be asking everyone around them to put a gun to their own head and asking them to all pull the trigger. If they are going up against anything lower than 2080 performance they'd be horrible value for money, especially when those and the Radeon VII are both available from USD680.00 on newegg (albeit likely @ the 10% tarriff still, I would imagine).

399USD and 499USD SKUs existing isn't out of the question. The issue is we don't expect cards that would be worth those prices to be in the launch window. That's the disconnect right now. The Rep only said "above 2070" performance and we don't know if that was for both SKUs or not. We might have a situation where 399USD is the 2070/2080 performance competitor and the 499USD part is actually a special edition liquid cooled variant. Remember how Vega launched with 3 SKUs: 56, 64 and 64 Liquid. 

 

Further, the information doesn't make much sense as Navi is a full scale Generation and there's the entire slate of SKUs coming. The vague discussion might have actually been about their own top of the line SKUs, which would make a lot more sense. 

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1 minute ago, Taf the Ghost said:

The cost will be passed along (China has actually be paying a lot to keep it from killing companies, so a lot of it actually hasn't been passed along), but it's not like a Sales Tax. It's going to be the cost to the distributor to get it to the Point of Entry. So it's normally a pre-Wholesale price and pre-Retail markups. Without any adjustments, a 25% Tariff should see around a 10% retail price increase or so. It's not minor, but it has been so far.

It still can end up in the retail price so it's reflected their if required. The price you pay is all costs, that's inclusive of tariffs. Someone might decide to eat a tariff so you don't pay more but that calculation was made and is represented in the retail price, just happens to be $0 of it.

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3 minutes ago, leadeater said:

It still can end up in the retail price so it's reflected their if required. The price you pay is all costs, that's inclusive of tariffs. Someone might decide to eat a tariff so you don't pay more but that calculation was made and is represented in the retail price, just happens to be $0 of it.

It's going to end up being paid by the consumer, not saying it won't be, it's just the actual price difference for the Consumer, for the Tariff %s under discussion, tend to be within the margin of normal price movements. Price of Oil will likely have a larger effect on the pricing than the Tariffs will.

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6 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

We might have a situation where 399USD is the 2070/2080 performance competitor and the 499USD part is actually a special edition liquid cooled variant.

And if they were talking about Toxic editions of the cards those are really expensive ones. $499 Toxic could be something like $400-$450 XC Black (Yea I know EVGA doesn't make AMD cards but it was the only cheap edition name I could remember lol).

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8 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

It's going to end up being paid by the consumer, not saying it won't be, it's just the actual price difference for the Consumer, for the Tariff %s under discussion, tend to be within the margin of normal price movements. Price of Oil will likely have a larger effect on the pricing than the Tariffs will.

Not so much for a 25% tariff, that's beyond hand waving the cost away. Larger distributors and retailers may be able to lessen the effects but 25% on consumers electronics is a lot, when is the last time you saw buy 3 RAM sticks get 1 free? ?.

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